The Last Jedi Laura Dern IS Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo

[nightwing06]

She was out of place and just another distracting red herring.

 

[danoyse]

This is a great article - but a good reasoning for why Holdo never told Poe about their plan, and how Poe screwed it up when he did find out what they were doing:

One might argue that if Holdo had filled in Poe on her plan—to evade the First Order fleet long enough to get within range of an old base on Crait—Poe would have listened and fallen in line. But to borrow a phrase from Poe himself, this mission was a “need-to-know.” And as soon as a frustrated Holdo and Leia let Poe in on the plan, he blabs about it over the comms to Finn loud enough that Benicio del Toro’s D.J. can hear—and, later, sell them out. If Poe had just listened to Leia and Holdo from the start, the rebel fleet wouldn’t have been quite so decimated by the end of the film. Poe does clearly learn his lesson by the final frames of The Last Jedi—and only then do his admiration for Holdo, his respect for Leia, and his realization of just how much he doesn’t know position him to finally become the leader these powerful women hoped he’d be.

Leia and Holdo were right.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

 

[idiot09]

Leia and Holdo were right.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I may be remembering wrong...but didnt they embark on that secret mission because Holdo was keeping secrets from them? If she had told them about the plans, it could have all gone down smoothly.

 

[C. Lee]

As many officers have said to many soldiers....."You are here to follow orders....I don't have to tell you why to do something...I tell you to do it.

 

[danoyse]

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I may be remembering wrong...but didnt they embark on that secret mission because Holdo was keeping secrets from them? If she had told them about the plans, it could have all gone down smoothly.

She was keeping it a secret from him because he was demoted for disobeying orders, getting a bunch of people killed, and further disabling their fleet. He couldn’t be trusted. Rather than learn a lesson from this, he continued to act foolishly by risking even more lives in a mission that was completely unnecessary and ultimately failed.

 

[idiot09]

She was keeping it a secret from him because he was demoted for disobeying orders...

That is something even though I disagree with considering the situation they were in, I can see your point. But the point that article made is that telling them the plans resulted in Poe "selling them out", however the paradox is, there would be no "selling out" if she had just told them the plans. They lacked numbers and were demotivated, and lost family/leaders. They needed a leader who was transparent, communicated a clear plan, and that would motivate them to stick to it and see it through. Imo ofcourse.

 

[Greens]

This is a great article - but a good reasoning for why Holdo never told Poe about their plan, and how Poe screwed it up when he did find out what they were doing:



Leia and Holdo were right.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywoo...jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women

The post-Trump era? I thought we were IN the Trump era. lol

 

[danoyse]

That is something even though I disagree with considering the situation they were in, I can see your point. But the point that article made is that telling them the plans resulted in Poe "selling them out", however the paradox is, there would be no "selling out" if she had just told them the plans. They lacked numbers and were demotivated, and lost family/leaders. They needed a leader who was transparent, communicated a clear plan, and that would motivate them to stick to it and see it through. Imo ofcourse.

She would have told him the plans if he hadn't disregarded the general's orders earlier and pulled a crazy stunt that got people killed and further disabled their fleet. That's not her fault. It's his.

People she and Leia trusted knew the plan. Other folks were trying to jump ship in the escape pods. If people were scared enough to run, they would likely be scared enough to tell everything to the First Order if they were caught.

Holdo and Leia's jobs were to get people to safe, not provide hugs & reassurance. Poe's job was the shut up and listen. He couldn't do that. It was a lesson he needed to learn.

 

[Orba]

She would have told him the plans if he hadn't disregarded the general's orders earlier and pulled a crazy stunt that got people killed and further disabled their fleet. That's not her fault. It's his.

People she and Leia trusted knew the plan. Other folks were trying to jump ship in the escape pods. If people were scared enough to run, they would likely be scared enough to tell everything to the First Order if they were caught.

Holdo and Leia's jobs were to get people to safe, not provide hugs & reassurance. Poe's job was the shut up and listen. He couldn't do that. It was a lesson he needed to learn.

Thats an important point, as Rose mentioned there had been people trying to run away in the escape pods, if the plan had been widely known then any of them could have given the plan to the First Order. The people who needed to know the plan knew it, anyone beyond that was an unnecessary risk to the success of the plan. Poe was not needed for the plan to be carried out so he was not told.

 

[danoyse]

Thats an important point, as Rose mentioned there had been people trying to run away in the escape pods, if the plan had been widely known then any of them could have given the plan to the First Order. The people who needed to know the plan knew it, anyone beyond that was an unnecessary risk to the success of the plan. Poe was not needed for the plan to be carried out so he was not told.

And Poe finally did learn the plan, he blabbed out over the comm to Finn, so it was over heard by the codebreaker, who sold them out to the First Order.

And who saved Finn and Rose from being tortured to death? Holdo, when she rammed the ship.

Poe's big mouth nearly got Rose and Finn killed too.

 

[Brother Jack]

I can get behind the line of reasoning for Holdo not informing Poe, I just wish it had been stated in the film. Even something as simple as Poe asking her to tell him and Holdo refusing because she thought he was too much of a hotheaded "fly boy". This is already in the film subliminally, but it needed to be made overt to make Dameron's arc seem less contrived.

 

[danoyse]

I can get behind the line of reasoning for Holdo not informing Poe, I just wish it had been stated in the film. Even something as simple as Poe asking her to tell him and Holdo refusing because she thought he was too much of a hotheaded "fly boy". This is already in the film subliminally, but it needed to be made overt to make Dameron's arc seem less contrived.

I think it was pretty obvious when he unnecessarily got a bunch of people killed in the opening scene why they couldn't trust him.

I think the audience mistrusted Holdo because they didn't know her, and let's face it, we all dig Poe. But he was wrong. He needed to learn how to lead.

 

[Mjölnir]

Both Poe and Holdo showed great incompetence. Poe's was worse though.

Then again Holdo might just be stupid as she apparently likes people that cause mutiny and disobey orders.

 

[Greens]

Both Poe and Holdo showed great incompetence. Poe's was worse though.

Then again Holdo might just be stupid as she apparently likes people that cause mutiny and disobey orders.

Yeah that was weird. It's fine to use the "I like him" trope but it was really out of place here.

 

[danoyse]

Yeah that was weird. It's fine to use the "I like him" trope but it was really out of place here.

Well, I like Poe too, but I thought he was a hotheaded jackass for most of this movie. I think Leia and Holdo understood that too.

 

[Greens]

Well, I like Poe too, but I thought he was a hotheaded jackass for most of this movie. I think Leia and Holdo understood that too.

Yeah but Holdo seemed to actively dislike him. Maybe it's just Dern's stern (yeah, yeah) facial expressions

 

[danoyse]

Yeah but Holdo seemed to actively dislike him. Maybe it's just Dern's stern (yeah, yeah) facial expressions

She doesn't like him, she's just pissed at him. She likes who he has the potential to be.

 

[Mjölnir]

Well, I like Poe too, but I thought he was a hotheaded jackass for most of this movie. I think Leia and Holdo understood that too.

I think it's a bit easier to like a reckless, hotheaded jackass in an action movie than it is to do it in your own reality though. Especially when it gets real people killed and endangers the cause you're behind enough to be willing to die for it.

Not that it's a thing that ruins the movie or anything but I found it very misplaced there.

 

[BestGirl]

It wouldn't've been smart for Holdo to tell Poe the specifics of the plan, but could she at least have let him and the other rebels know that a plan was in place? The only thing I remember her telling them was to hope. That wouldn't be good enough for most people.

 

[ManWithNoName18]

It wouldn't've been smart for Holdo to tell Poe the specifics of the plan, but could she at least have let him and the other rebels know that a plan was in place? The only thing I remember her telling them was to hope. That wouldn't be good enough for most people.

Spoiler

I'll admit I know nothing of military structure or command. The resistance at this point is even more rag tag than the rebellion was. In an extremely dire situation.

Poe's "hero status" gives him a lot of clout despite his rank. To the point where he can effectively give secret missions to people, and even get people to stand behind him for the mutiny. (even though both didn't really work out)

Holdo was in a tough spot, both the Resistance command included Ackbar and Leia two legendary leaders. Would Poe have sent Finn on that mission if Leia/Ackbar where in charge?
Maybe, but I don't think he would have tried to outright mutiny.

Poe did seem more onboard with the plan after Leia explained it to him.

Thinking on it for a while. The only reasoning I can see in telling everyone the plan is that it could have eased some peoples fears that they where on a doomed ship, and given a moral boost.

I don't think it would have stopped Poe from trying to save the whole ship via his codebreaker idea. But it may have taken the wind out of any mutiny ideas.

 

[psylockolussus]

I like her hair color and she was fierce with her fashion style.

 

[Matt]

Poe was an idiot. Every decision he made in the movie was wrong.

Holdo wasn't that bright either. Not telling Poe, or anyone outside of the command structure, her plan was inviting mutiny. She doesn't need to give specifics. But At that point there was, at most, a couple hundred people left. As far as they were aware they were floating to their doom as one of their leaders was dead and the other laid in coma. Things were so dire that a guard was required at the escape pods to avoid desertion. People were desperate and desperate times are not the time to play cards close to your chest.

Further, there is value in having someone like Poe on your side. No one seemed to really like or trust Holdo. Poe, on the other hand, was a renowned hero who was able to get quite a few senior officers behind him for a mutiny. It makes more sense to work with someone like that and use him to calm others/keep morale up than to ice him out.

 

[TheVileOne]

Poe was an idiot. Every decision he made in the movie was wrong.

Holdo wasn't that bright either. Not telling Poe, or anyone outside of the command structure, her plan was inviting mutiny. She doesn't need to give specifics. But At that point there was, at most, a couple hundred people left. As far as they were aware they were floating to their doom as one of their leaders was dead and the other laid in coma. Things were so dire that a guard was required at the escape pods to avoid desertion. People were desperate and desperate times are not the time to play cards close to your chest.

Further, there is value in having someone like Poe on your side. No one seemed to really like or trust Holdo. Poe, on the other hand, was a renowned hero who was able to get quite a few senior officers behind him for a mutiny. It makes more sense to work with someone like that and use him to calm others/keep morale up than to ice him out.

IMHO, epitome of bad writing. Lawrence Kasdan needed a pass at this.

 

[Matt]

IMHO, epitome of bad writing. Lawrence Kasdan needed a pass at this.

I wouldn't say it is bad writing, per se. I mean, everything just about every character did was wrong. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but no character's decisions led to their desired results (except Luke at the very end). I'm not sure if this was intentional or not though.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

An interesting take on both sides’ command issues (warning: spoilers):

https://angrystaffofficer.com/2017/12/18/a-leadership-vacuum-the-last-jedi-and-mission-failure/