Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[samsnee]

Timelines

So Cap returned the stones to make sure the prime timeline (the one we’ve watched the last ten years) stays intact. But he also stays behind to grow old with Peggy.

So either he wiped out her husband that was mentioned in Winter Soldier, or that was secretly him. Which means he didn’t bother warning anyone about HYDRA running Shield or try to save Bucky earlier.

But past Thanos also travels to the future and is killed. So then there is no past Thanos to collect the stones and do the original snap, creating a paradox.

Anyone have any theories or do we just accept it as timey-wimey shenanigans?

 

[Ninjablade]

Great idea for a thread, I feel it warrants it's own discussion.

Based off the descriptions from everyone, I have some semblance of a diagram to try and explain how it might work. I'm seeing the film later tonight, I'll post it after I see it so I can incorporate what the actual film says.

 

[eon001]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this get's broken down. I love time travel stories despite finding them really confusing.
What a great way to conclude Tony and Steve's stories.

Just come back from a midday screening. I'm still buzzing and trying to process my thoughts.

 

[Charzhin0]

One thing i dont get. Are the resurrected Avengers still the same age as when they died or have they somehow aged 5 years "whilst dead".

So Peter Parker in homecoming is gonna be 5 years younger than Ned who wasnt dusted?

 

[Charzhin0]

On timelines in general I really want to see the explanation dialogue The Ancient One broke it down to Bruce. It happened way too quick for me to take it in on board in the film

 

[Iceman]

On timelines in general I really want to see the explanation dialogue The Ancient One broke it down to Bruce. It happened way too quick for me to take it in on board in the film

Tilda needs to hold classes for us all.

 

[samsnee]

One thing i dont get. Are the resurrected Avengers still the same age as when they died or have they somehow aged 5 years "whilst dead".

So Peter Parker in homecoming is gonna be 5 years younger than Ned who wasnt dusted?

But why would Ned still be in high school?

 

[Hannibal75]

I dislike time travel for that exact reason. It's usually used a get out of jail free card by lazy screenwriters that ultimately makes little sense.
That said, I think that Endgame handled it much better than I expected. There are problems of course (the biggest for me is Old Cap) but it could have been much worse.

 

[InvisibleWoman]

One thing i dont get. Are the resurrected Avengers still the same age as when they died or have they somehow aged 5 years "whilst dead".

So Peter Parker in homecoming is gonna be 5 years younger than Ned who wasnt dusted?

I think Ned was dusted too. Their moment at the end might have just been the first time they'd seen each other since the dusting. That's how I took it.

 

[InvisibleWoman]

Timelines

So Cap returned the stones to make sure the prime timeline (the one we’ve watched the last ten years) stays intact. But he also stays behind to grow old with Peggy.

So either he wiped out her husband that was mentioned in Winter Soldier, or that was secretly him. Which means he didn’t bother warning anyone about HYDRA running Shield or try to save Bucky earlier.

But past Thanos also travels to the future and is killed. So then there is no past Thanos to collect the stones and do the original snap, creating a paradox.

Anyone have any theories or do we just accept it as timey-wimey shenanigans?

From what I understood... every time they made a change to the prime timeline ie. removed a stone from where it was supposed to be... it created a branch. A different/alternate timeline. So Steve going back to Peggy would have created one of these branches and that's the branch we were seeing.

The timeline where Peggy marries and has kids with someone else still exists. That's just not the one we saw.

This is how I understood it and I'm happy to think of it that way (even if it's wrong!)

 

[First Avenger]

Let's start with how time travel generally works in fiction.

Fixed Timeline: You successfully kill adolescent Hitler, but a new Hitler figure, regardless of how or explanation, starts the Holocaust and WWII still happens. You still exist because no matter what you do in the past, the future must adhere to it. This is essentially called a closed Time Loop. The future is always the same because you were ALWAYS MEANT to change the past. It means the original Hitler was always killed by you.

Dynamic Timeline: You kill adolescent Hitler, and world does not experience WWII related events. Your Grandparents never meet. You shouldn't exist in the present. If you return to the present, this is what creates a PARADOX, depending on how people interpret it. Either you disappear from existence or you exist but should never have existed at all from this point on.

Alternate Timeline/Multiverse: a slight combination of the above. You kill Hitler in the past, but YOUR timeline does not change, it still happens. The idea is a new timeline is created when past events are altered, hence there is now a new timeline where WWII did not happen and you were never born. You didnt erase the events from your own timeline, you essentially created a new universe.


Now think about what happens in Endgame as the introduction of the Multiverse. Captain America went back in the exact points where they retrieved the Stones plus Mjolnir, THEN he just created another universe in which he gets to live his life with Peggy. In this timeline, Cap could easily have stopped Hydra, saved Bucky, saved Howard and Maria, etc, BUT whatever happened in the original timeline didn't change, as Professor Hulk explained he lived his future in a different past, that's why he returned in his original universe as an old man to give Sam the shield.

At least that's how I see it lol

 

[Statctide]

Basically the way I am understanding it is that since pre snap Thanos was killed in the future, the snap never occurred. So if the snap never occured then a new timeline was created where end game never occurs. But then what happens to Tony. Maybe SHC will answer a few questions. Obviously Peter is the same age as the rest of his highschool peers. We'll see.

 

[samsnee]

From what I understood... every time they made a change to the prime timeline ie. removed a stone from where it was supposed to be... it created a branch. A different/alternate timeline. So Steve going back to Peggy would have created one of these branches and that's the branch we were seeing.

The timeline where Peggy marries and has kids with someone else still exists. That's just not the one we saw.

This is how I understood it and I'm happy to think of it that way (even if it's wrong!)

I don’t mind that it just means we are now no longer witnessing the prime MCU timeline we’ve been seeing this whole time.

 

[Charzhin0]

Endgames time travel is unique as no matter what actions are taken when going back in time, it doesnt affect the timeline that you originally came from - which is why they couldn't go back and kill baby Thanos.

All other major timetravel movies I recall dont follow this rule. Back to the future, Terminator, Days of Future Past, Deadpool 2 for example all have scenarios where heros go back in time to change the timeline they started the movie in, for the better.

 

[Mutant 77]

I know there's a 'SPOILERS' thread, but I think that time travel in "ENDGAME" deserves its own thread, because it's complicated. I must say that it's even an original approach.


INFINITY WAR: basically, if Strange tells Tony they're in the right timeline before everything that needs to happen happens, it won't happen. Strange holding up the one finger is a signal to Tony that everything that needs to happen for them to win has happened, they are in the one timeline. If Strange had told Tony before this, those things wouldn't have happened. He saw 14 million futures. He knows exactly how this needs to play out.

As for the time travel in ENDGAME, Hulk and the Ancient One make clear that you can't change the past. By changing things, you're just creating another timeline. Your past is your past, you can't change it. So even if Cap were to change things in his new life with Peggy, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. The Gamora from 2014 running around in 2023 doesn't affect the Gamora we followed in GOTG 1-2 and infinity War. She still lived and died. The new Gamora is one from a different timeline. So if Cap were to change anything, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline.

Easiest way to explain it is this:

Main timeline: The one the MCU follows and is in now and will continue to follow.

Timeline 2: Everything the same up until the Battle of New York. Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Captain America and Hulk steal the Mind and Time stones. Cap later returns these stones to the moment they were taken, restoring this timeline almost to normal (Loki is still on the loose with the Tesseract).

Timeline 3: Everything the same up until "Thor: The Dark World". Rocket removes the Reality stone from Jane. Cap later returns the stone at the moment it was taken. This alternate timeline is erased and restored to the main timeline.

Timeline 4: Everything same up until the 1970's. Tony steals the Tesseract from SHIELD. Cap later returns the Tesseract. This alternate timeline is erased and restored to the main timeline.

Timeline 5: Everything same up until GOTG. Rhodey and Nebula steal the Power stone while Nat and Clint retrieve the Soul stone. The Thanos, Nebula, Gamora and Thanos's army of this timeline travel to Main Timeline, where Thanos, Nebula and Thanos's army are killed. Cap later returns the stones but this timeline goes forward without Thanos, Nebula and Gamora.

Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies.

As is made clear in the film, you cannot change the past. The past remains the same no matter what. The time travel rules from other movies don't apply to the MCU. Instead, you create a different timeline. The timeline you originated from still exists. The changes the Avengers make in the past have no effect on the future they came from.


Radically DIFFERENT approach from the Fox X-Men Main Universe, where the timeline is revised twice and we got three timelines for the same universe:

Timeline 1: X-Men Origins: Wolverine; X-Men; X2; X-Men: The Last Stand; Logan.

Timeline 2: X-Men: First Class; revised movies; The Wolverine (2008); Days of Future Past 2023.

Timeline 3: X-Men: First Class; Days of Future Past 1973; X-Men: Apocalypse; Dark Phoenix; The New Mutants; DOFP New 2023.

The Deadpool movies are set in an alternate universe.

 

[samsnee]

There is a thread for it. I don’t think you should put any hint of time travel in the title as people haven’t seen the movie yet

Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

 

[Mutant 77]

I've written: "Time Psychics", not "Time Travel". So it's fine

 

[FunkMiller]

I've written: "Time Psychics", not "Time Travel". So it's fine

The second you use the phrase ‘time physics’ it SCREAMS time travel. You need to change or delete this.

 

[Mutant 77]

So then... explain old Steve?

If he’s been living in a separate timeline, how does he get back to the main timeline at the end, given that he put the infinity stones back? How does he come back?

Great question. He found a way. Not impossible. Remember, he comes from an alternate timeline, a "branched" one.

 

[samsnee]

It seems kind of cheap though. There is always only 1 Thanos in the past. Killing the past version of him means his future actions are nulled.

 

[rebellion]

Dude, are you some kind of apologist for messed up timelines? Keep it. You arent convincing anyone but yourself.

 

[Mutant 77]

Dude, are you some kind of apologist for messed up timelines? Keep it. You arent convincing anyone but yourself.

LMAO, there are no messed up timelines at all. FOX and MCU did it nicely and with no problems.

Life is beautiful. Have fun. Watch the movies, don't spend time here as much angry as Nicholas Cage LOL.

 

[drmick]

I know there's a 'SPOILERS' thread, but I think that time travel in "ENDGAME" deserves its own thread, because it's complicated. I must say that it's even an original approach.


INFINITY WAR: basically, if Strange tells Tony they're in the right timeline before everything that needs to happen happens, it won't happen. Strange holding up the one finger is a signal to Tony that everything that needs to happen for them to win has happened, they are in the one timeline. If Strange had told Tony before this, those things wouldn't have happened. He saw 14 million futures. He knows exactly how this needs to play out.

As for the time travel in ENDGAME, Hulk and the Ancient One make clear that you can't change the past. By changing things, you're just creating another timeline. Your past is your past, you can't change it. So even if Cap were to change things in his new life with Peggy, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. The Gamora from 2014 running around in 2023 doesn't affect the Gamora we followed in GOTG 1-2 and infinity War. She still lived and died. The new Gamora is one from a different timeline. So if Cap were to change anything, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline.

Easiest way to explain it is this:

Main timeline: The one the MCU follows and is in now and will continue to follow.

Timeline 2: Everything the same up until the Battle of New York. Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Captain America and Hulk steal the Mind and Time stones. Cap later returns these stones to the moment they were taken, restoring this timeline almost to normal (Loki is still on the loose with the Tesseract).

Timeline 3: Everything the same up until "Thor: The Dark World". Rocket removes the Reality stone from Jane. Cap later returns the stone at the moment it was taken. This alternate timeline is erased and restored to the main timeline.

Timeline 4: Everything same up until the 1970's. Tony steals the Tesseract from SHIELD. Cap later returns the Tesseract. This alternate timeline is erased and restored to the main timeline.

Timeline 5: Everything same up until GOTG. Rhodey and Nebula steal the Power stone while Nat and Clint retrieve the Soul stone. The Thanos, Nebula, Gamora and Thanos's army of this timeline travel to Main Timeline, where Thanos, Nebula and Thanos's army are killed. Cap later returns the stones but this timeline goes forward without Thanos, Nebula and Gamora.

Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies.

As is made clear in the film, you cannot change the past. The past remains the same no matter what. The time travel rules from other movies don't apply to the MCU. Instead, you create a different timeline. The timeline you originated from still exists. The changes the Avengers make in the past have no effect on the future they came from.


Radically DIFFERENT approach from the Fox X-Men Main Universe, where the timeline is revised twice and we got three timelines for the same universe:

Timeline 1: X-Men Origins: Wolverine; X-Men; X2; X-Men: The Last Stand; Logan.

Timeline 2: X-Men: First Class; revised movies; The Wolverine (2008); Days of Future Past 2023.

Timeline 3: X-Men: First Class; Days of Future Past 1973; X-Men: Apocalypse; Dark Phoenix; The New Mutants; DOFP New 2023.

The Deadpool movies are set in an alternate universe.

Good post. I think the movie should have explained this better. There are even a couple of moments where Lang says he has no idea what's going on!

The Timeline 6 you describe- they should have definitely described that better, because of the big implications Cap running around in "the past".

 

[Mutant 77]

The Timeline 6 you describe- they should have definitely described that better, because of the big implications Cap running around in "the past".

Not that big of deal. He assumed an alternate identity and spent his life as a normal man, far from the Captain America operating in that branching timeline.

 

[Hurm...]

I know there's a 'SPOILERS' thread, but I think that time travel in "ENDGAME" deserves its own thread, because it's complicated. I must say that it's even an original approach.


INFINITY WAR: basically, if Strange tells Tony they're in the right timeline before everything that needs to happen happens, it won't happen. Strange holding up the one finger is a signal to Tony that everything that needs to happen for them to win has happened, they are in the one timeline. If Strange had told Tony before this, those things wouldn't have happened. He saw 14 million futures. He knows exactly how this needs to play out.

As for the time travel in ENDGAME, Hulk and the Ancient One make clear that you can't change the past. By changing things, you're just creating another timeline. Your past is your past, you can't change it. So even if Cap were to change things in his new life with Peggy, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline. The Gamora from 2014 running around in 2023 doesn't affect the Gamora we followed in GOTG 1-2 and infinity War. She still lived and died. The new Gamora is one from a different timeline. So if Cap were to change anything, it wouldn't affect the main MCU timeline.

Easiest way to explain it is this:

Main timeline: The one the MCU follows and is in now and will continue to follow.

Timeline 2: Everything the same up until the Battle of New York. Loki escapes with the Tesseract, Captain America and Hulk steal the Mind and Time stones. Cap later returns these stones to the moment they were taken, restoring this timeline almost to normal (Loki is still on the loose with the Tesseract).

Timeline 3: Everything the same up until "Thor: The Dark World". Rocket removes the Reality stone from Jane. Cap later returns the stone at the moment it was taken. This alternate timeline is erased and restored to the main timeline.

Timeline 4: Everything same up until the 1970's. Tony steals the Tesseract from SHIELD. Cap later returns the Tesseract. This alternate timeline is erased and restored to the main timeline.

Timeline 5: Everything same up until GOTG. Rhodey and Nebula steal the Power stone while Nat and Clint retrieve the Soul stone. The Thanos, Nebula, Gamora and Thanos's army of this timeline travel to Main Timeline, where Thanos, Nebula and Thanos's army are killed. Cap later returns the stones but this timeline goes forward without Thanos, Nebula and Gamora.

Timeline 6: Captain America goes back to the 40's and lives a long and happy life with Peggy. Cap returns to the main timeline to say farewell to Bucky and Sam after Peggy presumably dies.

As is made clear in the film, you cannot change the past. The past remains the same no matter what. The time travel rules from other movies don't apply to the MCU. Instead, you create a different timeline. The timeline you originated from still exists. The changes the Avengers make in the past have no effect on the future they came from.


Radically DIFFERENT approach from the Fox X-Men Main Universe, where the timeline is revised twice and we got three timelines for the same universe:

Timeline 1: X-Men Origins: Wolverine; X-Men; X2; X-Men: The Last Stand; Logan.

Timeline 2: X-Men: First Class; revised movies; The Wolverine (2008); Days of Future Past 2023.

Timeline 3: X-Men: First Class; Days of Future Past 1973; X-Men: Apocalypse; Dark Phoenix; The New Mutants; DOFP New 2023.

The Deadpool movies are set in an alternate universe.

Okay this makes complete sense by the movie's logic, thank you! If keeping the Ancient One's timeline visual in mind, your explanation makes sense that Cap reunited with the main timeline automatically after returning the stones (which would have had alternate timelines up until the point of returning it).

Very useful -- well done.