Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[Ninjablade]

So it’s not so much time travel as inter-dimensional travel?

I think it's trying to do both.

Yeah it's definitely some weird combination of the two. I wish the film hashed it out more, because it definitely is more inter-dimensional travel than it is time travel, but they kept referring to it as the latter. I feel like Bruce should've said that instead of trying to argue how time-travel works.

 

[BobJM]

tony still has his 3 year old daughter.
ant man's daughter is 5 years older.

is parker still in high school or is he in college now?

this is very much my question. To be fair, after the snap, perhaps regular schooling was suspended in the wake of the chaos. By the time things calmed & got back to normal, maybe school as back in session and Ned only returned to school a year or so after the dusting and is a senior.

It's the only part the time travel that irked me. I was surprised that they decided to stay 5 years in the future.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah breaking down the time rules here will make your head spin, especially since Nebula literally killed a past version of herself. You could argue that this is possible because present day Nebula is from a different timeline. And a past version of Thanos dies, which would undo the previous films. But I’m pretty sure they were insinuating that Steve always went back in time in the main timeline and he was Peggy’s secret husband all along (I don’t think we ever actually saw what her beau looked like so I’m guessing this is the reason). So yeah... when you pick it all apart, it really doesn’t make sense but I think I’ll let them slide here because the movie works as a big emotional payoff. And I honestly can’t think of any time travel movie where they cover all the bases; there’s usually something in there that doesn’t quite add up.

 

[ludovica]

So, old Cap comes from a different timeline just to give someone else a shield, forsaking whatever life he created for himself in his alternate universe? Not to put too fine a point on it, but if we're having to find workarounds and draw up diagrams for ourselves then something has gone terribly wrong. Even Inception was easier to figure out and made more logical sense.

I have major problems with Steve just merrily living out his life in the past with Peggy, knowing Bucky is being brainwashed and tortured, SHIELD is being infiltrated by HYDRA, etc., and doing nothing about any of it.

Completely OOC.

Or Old Cap popped in from another timeline where he did not quitely just live it out.
Who knows?
A couple way out are there.

 

[Heretic]

Question regarding someone mentioned above...and DO NOT click this if you haven't seen Endgame!!!!!!!!

Spoiler

She's dead still, right? I know that she betrayed her father along with "our" Nebula, but I didn't see her again after the final snap, so I assumed she got dusted...and I definitely didn't see her with the Guardians at the end (aside from her face in a hologram). Maybe I'm wrong there.

 

[dennis_3107]

You just have to think there are multiple similar pasts, changing them will not change the movie present but will change the pasts' futures, hence they have to return all the stones. The only past that got better ending was the past the Thanos left and got dusted in the movie present.

As to cap, lets assume that he used the serum to travel back to that point to deliver the shield and would go back to his timeline afterwards.

 

[legendkillin]

I think Ned was dusted too. Their moment at the end might have just been the first time they'd seen each other since the dusting. That's how I took it.

Guessing all the main classmates were dusted. I don't see Far from Home taking place before this movie and IWS.

 

[legendkillin]

This allows Kang to come in, who knows what Cap did by staying back. He would impact what Ancient One talked about. Sure he returned a stone but he is a big part of the universe and timeline. Him staying would have an impact too.

 

[legendkillin]

Loki taking the Tesseract creates a split because he is never coming back to return it. That Loki could come back some day, them going back to 1970 should not erase the Fight in NY and Loki taking it in that reality.

 

[Limonade]

I just realized

Spoiler

pre-Thor 2 Loki escaped! He lives!

 

[C. Lee]

Question regarding someone mentioned above...and DO NOT click this if you haven't seen Endgame!!!!!!!!

Spoiler

She's dead still, right? I know that she betrayed her father along with "our" Nebula, but I didn't see her again after the final snap, so I assumed she got dusted...and I definitely didn't see her with the Guardians at the end (aside from her face in a hologram). Maybe I'm wrong there.

Spoiler

Yes, apparently Gamora died along with all of Thanos's other army when they got dusted. You see her picture when Quill is looking at it on a view screen....and under her picture is the word SEARCHING.

 

[thalidomide]

They need to add an explanation to these timelines in their Blu-Ray release.

 

[macphisto96]

Timelines

So Cap returned the stones to make sure the prime timeline (the one we’ve watched the last ten years) stays intact. But he also stays behind to grow old with Peggy.

So either he wiped out her husband that was mentioned in Winter Soldier, or that was secretly him. Which means he didn’t bother warning anyone about HYDRA running Shield or try to save Bucky earlier.

But past Thanos also travels to the future and is killed. So then there is no past Thanos to collect the stones and do the original snap, creating a paradox.

Anyone have any theories or do we just accept it as timey-wimey shenanigans?

It's just sloppy plotting. The Cap theory could work, but the Thanos thing is a massive paradox.

Thanos comes from the past. He and his army get wiped out. He never gets the stones, never sacrifices Gamora (because he's gone), and never snaps.

So Infinity War never happened - but if that never happened then End Game didn't need to happen ad infinitum. We're stuck in a loop.

Now we could be all Doctor Who and say that paradoxes correct themselves, but why return the stones to their proper place - why not wipe them out?

The issue is that they had a place where Marvel wanted the characters to end up and they also wanted to provide the audience with catharsis - seeing Thanos and his army turn to dust.

The easiest plot device to have used was snapping them back to the past with their memories wiped of the new events so Thanos can get all the stones, snap, and the loop can close. But I'm sure the order from on high was that the audience needed to see Thanos get his just desserts (though that happened early via Thor's axe).

Both Infinity War and End Game suffered from fairly sloppy plots because of where they needed to go in a relatively short amount of time. You give enough fan service, cause enough cheers, and most will forgive you.

And that's okay. Most people won't care about that, at least on first viewing. Others will - and I'm sure it'll be discussed and many will try to make excuses for it instead of admitting the problem exists.

You can't perfectly accomplish what Marvel just pulled off in a little over a decade and the paradox should not take away from the accomplishment. Fans around the world will love the film regardless and find joy in it - they'll laugh, cheer, and cry. So the mission is accomplished.

 

[legendkillin]

It's just sloppy plotting. The Cap theory could work, but the Thanos thing is a massive paradox.

Thanos comes from the past. He and his army get wiped out. He never gets the stones, never sacrifices Gamora (because he's gone), and never snaps.

So Infinity War never happened - but if that never happened then End Game didn't need to happen ad infinitum. We're stuck in a loop.

Now we could be all Doctor Who and say that paradoxes correct themselves, but why return the stones to their proper place - why not wipe them out?

The issue is that they had a place where Marvel wanted the characters to end up and they also wanted to provide the audience with catharsis - seeing Thanos and his army turn to dust.

The easiest plot device to have used was snapping them back to the past with their memories wiped of the new events so Thanos can get all the stones, snap, and the loop can close. But I'm sure the order from on high was that the audience needed to see Thanos get his just desserts (though that happened early via Thor's axe).

Both Infinity War and End Game suffered from fairly sloppy plots because of where they needed to go in a relatively short amount of time. You give enough fan service, cause enough cheers, and most will forgive you.

And that's okay. Most people won't care about that, at least on first viewing. Others will - and I'm sure it'll be discussed and many will try to make excuses for it instead of admitting the problem exists.

You can't perfectly accomplish what Marvel just pulled off in a little over a decade and the paradox should not take away from the accomplishment. Fans around the world will love the film regardless and find joy in it - they'll laugh, cheer, and cry. So the mission is accomplished.

Considering they said all that Back to the Future time travel was BS along with other movies. I believe Marvel made their own rules, you can change the past but its not one timeline. It does not impact what happen but likely splits into another timeline. It is like Trunks in Dragonball Z if anyone ever watched, he is from the future everyone of the heroes died by the villains. He went back in time to warn them and prepare them. Well that changed their timeline in the past but his future timeline stays the same. People didn't come back to life just because he saved them in the past.

 

[Marvolo]

I'm just gonna give Endgame's timey wimey stuff a cursory glance and not over-examine it for two reasons.

1. Its an MCU film and I really doubt it's time shenanigans hold up under serious scrutiny.

2. Future directors of future MCU films will ultimately determine the effects of this timey wimey stuff and not the Russos and not Endgame. It's hard to say what the effects will be at this point.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Thanos comes from the past. He and his army get wiped out. He never gets the stones, never sacrifices Gamora (because he's gone), and never snaps.

So Infinity War never happened - but if that never happened then End Game didn't need to happen ad infinitum. We're stuck in a loop.

Nah because it's a different reality. Changing the reality that they travelled back to doesn't affect their current reality. They explained that.

It's definitely interesting that there is a whole new reality created though where Thanos and his minions all died in 2014.

 

[djsunyc]

every time the heroes went to the past - a new timeline occurred.

let's see if i can explain myself lol...

the entire MCU is timeline A. every movie we've seen is in this timeline. thanos got the stones, snapped his finger and 50% died. this is the timeline endgame is based on. avengers kill thanos by chopping off his head. they do the time travel stuff - this is where things get nutty.

timeline A hulk, cap, tony, antman go back to the battle for ny. loki disappearing with the tesseract caused timeline B to happen. to fix this, cap and tony go back to 1970 and by taking the tesseract there, it caused timeline C to happen. hulk getting the time stone casued timeline D to happen. total timelines (4 - A,B,C,D), total new timelines (3 - B,C,D). timeline A hulk, cap, tony, antman return to present timeline A.

timeline A widow and hawkeye go to vormir and get the soul stone. timeline A widow dies. this caused timeline E. total timelines (5 - A,B,C,D,E), total new timelines (4 - B,C,D,E). timeline A hawkeye return to present timeline A.

timeline A rocket + thor go to asgard. they get the ether. timeline F is created. thor brings back timeline F's mjolnir. total timelines (6, A-F), total new timelines (5, B-F). timeline A rocket, thor return to present timeline A.

timeline A nebula and rhodey go to morag. they get the power stone. timeline G is created. timeline A rhodey returns present timeline A. timeline A nebula is stuck in timeline G. timeline G's thanos sends timeline G's nebula back to present timeline A. total timelines (7, A-G). total new timelines (6, B-G).

we are now in present timeline A with timeline A's, cap, tony, hulk, thor, antman, hawkeye, rhodey, rocket and timeline G's nebula.

hulk performs the snap. everyone that died in timeline A from infinity war is back.

timeline G's nebula brings timeline G's thanos, gamora, and his ship (which has timeline A's nebula).

final battle is present timeline A vs. timeline G's thanos + friends.

timeline A wins. all of timeline G's baddies are dusted by tony. (do not what happened to timeline G gamora but timeline A gamora is still dead from infinity war). timeline A thanos was killed in the beginning of the movie and timeline G thanos was killed in the final battle.

the ancient one said to stop the ripple effect of time - they had to return the infinity stones to their original locations in time. at least that's what she thinks.

timeline A's cap goes back in time to put the stones back. we do not know what happens here and what the ramifications are. this is the unknown that the MCU can do many things with.

timeline A's cap is now 100+ years old and returns at the end. imho, he did not come back via the time travel machine b/c he wasn't wearing the suit nor was he in the machine circle. i don't know how he got there but timeline A cap is old.

now all of these new timelines have COPIES of our timeline A people. there's a cap in timeline A (who's now 100 years old), timeline B-G. same for all of our other folks. all we do know is that thanos and nebula from timeline G is dead. thanos, gamora and widow from timeline A are dead. there is a gamora from timeline G somewhere or was also dusted in tony's snap.

i do not know the status of peter parker and high school. the easiest explanation is that everyone snapped did not age in those 5 years and all returned after the timeline A hulk snap. so he's still in high school as is ned. 50% of his high school classmates prior to infinity war - the 50% that survived are all now 5 years older. while the 50% that disappeared are still the same age and are still in high school

i hope that makes sense and it's my best stab at it.

 

[InvisibleWoman]

Guessing all the main classmates were dusted. I don't see Far from Home taking place before this movie and IWS.

And co-incidently all Peter's friends got dusted!

Do we know for sure that Far From Home takes place after Endgame? I sort of wondered if Far From Home would end with Peter on the school bus seeing the alien ship attack New York.

 

[macphisto96]

Considering they said all that Back to the Future time travel was BS along with other movies. I believe Marvel made their own rules, you can change the past but its not one timeline. It does not impact what happen but likely splits into another timeline. It is like Trunks in Dragonball Z if anyone ever watched, he is from the future everyone of the heroes died by the villains. He went back in time to warn them and prepare them. Well that changed their timeline in the past but his future timeline stays the same. People didn't come back to life just because he saved them in the past.

Doesn't eliminate the paradox.

Guys, it's okay to admit they were sloppy. There has to be a mechanism to correct a paradox. They can use a flippant line about Back to the Future as much as they want - Hulk even mentions the issue of the paradox early on. It's the reason why they have to return the stones.

They did not plan for Thanos to come forward in time. This was just a plot device because we KNEW it could not be clean. They needed to have road blocks and things go wrong.

The Thanos issue was easily correctable with the stones when Tony snapped. Sending them all back to the past with memories wiped was not out of the realm of possibility and the easiest way to close the loop. Tony, smart guy that he was, would have known that.

But they wanted the fans to have catharsis. It was a decision likely made by Feige and is one of the issues that occur with things like this. Just like in Infinity War, they had an outline of where they needed to end up with marks they had to hit. Thanos needed to get his, Tony had to sacrifice, and Cap had to get his dance. All fairly predictable. It would have been even cleaner had it only been Nebula going back, attempting to steal the gauntlet, and failing. But then you don't get your satisfying Avengers Assemble moment at the end.

They sacrificed story for fan service and everyone will love them for it.

But the paradox is still there. There was a ton of exposition in the film and yet nothing I recall really set this up. It was just sloppy plotting. They needed to get Thanos to the end with an army so everyone could cheer in the theater. They didn't care about the paradox just like they didn't care about the larger issues in Infinity War either no did they care about the contradictions with prior installments in the overall series.

They had a place where they wanted to go and they were willing to sacrifice the logic of the plot to get there. And fans either won't care or they'll make excuses to rationalize it. But the paradox still exists.

 

[macphisto96]

I'm just gonna give Endgame's timey wimey stuff a cursory glance and not over-examine it for two reasons.

1. Its an MCU film and I really doubt it's time shenanigans hold up under serious scrutiny.

2. Future directors of future MCU films will ultimately determine the effects of this timey wimey stuff and not the Russos and not Endgame. It's hard to say what the effects will be at this point.

This is exactly true. Overall most MCU films are not all that well plotted. That's not the point of them. Internal logic and consistency are not important if they prevent the characters from being where they need to be in the end.

They map out major plot points and let filmmakers play around in the margins, but you still need to hit the plot points. As long as the audience cheers, they logic doesn't really matter. Because if they audience cheers, you make bank - and that's the only thing that matters.

 

[TheVileOne]

Endgames time travel is unique as no matter what actions are taken when going back in time, it doesnt affect the timeline that you originally came from - which is why they couldn't go back and kill baby Thanos.

All other major timetravel movies I recall dont follow this rule. Back to the future, Terminator, Days of Future Past, Deadpool 2 for example all have scenarios where heros go back in time to change the timeline they started the movie in, for the better.

Dragon Ball.

 

[legendkillin]

Doesn't eliminate the paradox.

Guys, it's okay to admit they were sloppy. There has to be a mechanism to correct a paradox. They can use a flippant line about Back to the Future as much as they want - Hulk even mentions the issue of the paradox early on. It's the reason why they have to return the stones.

They did not plan for Thanos to come forward in time. This was just a plot device because we KNEW it could not be clean. They needed to have road blocks and things go wrong.

The Thanos issue was easily correctable with the stones when Tony snapped. Sending them all back to the past with memories wiped was not out of the realm of possibility and the easiest way to close the loop. Tony, smart guy that he was, would have known that.

But they wanted the fans to have catharsis. It was a decision likely made by Feige and is one of the issues that occur with things like this. Just like in Infinity War, they had an outline of where they needed to end up with marks they had to hit. Thanos needed to get his, Tony had to sacrifice, and Cap had to get his dance. All fairly predictable. It would have been even cleaner had it only been Nebula going back, attempting to steal the gauntlet, and failing. But then you don't get your satisfying Avengers Assemble moment at the end.

They sacrificed story for fan service and everyone will love them for it.

But the paradox is still there. There was a ton of exposition in the film and yet nothing I recall really set this up. It was just sloppy plotting. They needed to get Thanos to the end with an army so everyone could cheer in the theater. They didn't care about the paradox just like they didn't care about the larger issues in Infinity War either no did they care about the contradictions with prior installments in the overall series.

They had a place where they wanted to go and they were willing to sacrifice the logic of the plot to get there. And fans either won't care or they'll make excuses to rationalize it. But the paradox still exists.

Not sure how sloppy it will truly be if they actually make Kang The Konquer the next big bad. You need timeline issues and many of them to get his attention and piss him off. They may or may not have done that with this movie.

 

[B]

Glad there's been a thread made for this, I am completely & utterly confused as to how the quantum time travel made any sense.. if this wasn't an MCU, DC or franchise I didn't love it would have made me rip the film, but during it I went along with what was happening even though I didn't understand it.

I also fully realise the irony of saying 'the time travel didn't make any sense' in such a fantastical universe.

 

[legendkillin]

And co-incidently all Peter's friends got dusted!

Do we know for sure that Far From Home takes place after Endgame? I sort of wondered if Far From Home would end with Peter on the school bus seeing the alien ship attack New York.

That was my thought too when the first trailer came out for FFH. It is possible with Fury also returning from some place in the IWs credit scene. It is still possible, but it maybe better growth for Parker to have a mission after his mentor dies.

 

[Mutant 77]

I assumed that Old Cap used the Pym particles in his suit to return to the main MCU timeline and brought back the shield from the timeline he'd been living in with Peggy.

This seems a reasonable theory. I THINK they should have showed that on-screen... I don't think there will be one more chance to see Old Cap featured in some other MCU movie. OR so I guess...

You go man, I never for a minute had a doubt this thread from you would pop up.
Reliable you are.

Thank you, really.

I'm not sure why people are being idiots and giving u a hard time for this thread I really appreciate you breaking it down in a very sensible way. I think its freaking awesome so thank you very much!

I do have another question though--- if there was a 5 year jump then why is Spiderman and all his friends still in highschool? I get that time didnt pass for the people who were snapped away but surely all his class mates didnt get snapped away shouldnt half of them (I know its not half of them its half all loving creatures, but from an odds standpoint at least some of them) should be off in college now and 5 years older, right?

1- Thank you so much. I think there are way too many X-Men haters here...

2- Yeah, that will cause many problems to planet Earth by sure. I don't know how they're gonna handle it on-screen.