The Last Jedi Luke Skywalker's role in "The Last Jedi": Did you like it?

[MessiahDecoy123]

Um yeah, much of the backlash is because TLJ didn't follow the OT close enough. Now some are saying it followed too closely.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I guess you guys wanted some things the same and other things different but it does seem contradictory and somewhat arbitrary.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I guess you guys wanted some things the same and other things different but it does seem contradictory and somewhat arbitrary.

Agreed. Honestly, and i dont mean to sound rude to others that bash it, but it does seem like they're mainly pissed they didnt get what they wanted rather than have a logical complaint. I think Disneys aware of the fact that theres gonna be no pleasing some fans and i hope they keep on doing what theyve been doing.

 

[Mjölnir]

Um yeah, much of the backlash is because TLJ didn't follow the OT close enough. Now some are saying it followed too closely.

I guess you guys wanted some things the same and other things different but it does seem contradictory and somewhat arbitrary.

The first quote sounds sensible, the other makes a pretty unproven accusation of that it's the same people that says that it's too much new and too much of the same. I'd need to see some proof of that before even thinking about buying that as treating people with a similar generic opinion (a film is good or bad) as the same body with the same opinions is a basic mistake that people on the Internet tend to do. Often done by people that have a problem with people not having the same opinions as they do.

 

[Mjölnir]

Agreed. Honestly, and i dont mean to sound rude to others that bash it, but it does seem like they're mainly pissed they didnt get what they wanted rather than have a logical complaint. I think Disneys aware of the fact that theres gonna be no pleasing some fans and i hope they keep on doing what theyve been doing.

I don't mean to sound rude either, but I think that's some high level BS. There's been tons of arguments made on this board that are fully explained opinions with their base in logic and/or established facts. They are of course still subjective as all opinions are, but they do by no means lack logic.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I don't mean to sound rude either, but I think that's some high level BS. There's been tons of arguments made on this board that are fully explained opinions with their base in logic and/or established facts. They are of course still subjective as all opinions are, but they do by no means lack logic.

Oh i think some people have made complaints that can be considered valid for sure, but outside of this forum, and on most of social media its been some of the most ignorant complaints ive ever seen. I think people should be able to voice their opinions no matter what, its just that if the complaints have no base in logic, then they're pretty much BS.


I Loved this film and i accept others that dont, but if people complain that last jed is "SJW WARS" then i have a huge problem with that because it seems to me that those people have much deeper problems than disliking a movies choices.

 

[Mjölnir]

Oh i think some people have made complaints that can be considered valid for sure, but outside of this forum, and on most of social media its been some of the most ignorant complaints ive ever seen. I think people should be able to voice their opinions no matter what, its just that if the complaints have no base in logic, then they're pretty much BS.


I Loved this film and i accept others that dont, but if people complain that last jed is "SJW WARS" then i have a huge problem with that because it seems to me that those people have much deeper problems than disliking a movies choices.

I won't say much for what's said everywhere as I have a hard time gauging such a wide scope, especially since I don't partake much in social media as they generally promote very simplistic and brief opinions. I prefer forums or other places where one can discuss at length or otherwise get into more detail.

I agree that having a problem that there are women and minorities in roles is a pretty useless complaint. If anything I think SW could be more diverse for it's universe and have more top characters be of the other various species that are around. It mainly seems like humans make up most important people in the galaxy. I of course understand why that is the case though.

 

[Gothamsknight]

to add to the discussion, id figured id post a very insightful article which pretty much explains why i love this film as much as i do. one of the many reasons actually.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/28/the-last-jedi-unlearning-what-we-have-learned

 

[Gothamsknight]

I won't say much for what's said everywhere as I have a hard time gauging such a wide scope, especially since I don't partake much in social media as they generally promote very simplistic and brief opinions. I prefer forums or other places where one can discuss at length or otherwise get into more detail.

I agree that having a problem that there are women and minorities in roles is a pretty useless complaint. If anything I think SW could be more diverse for it's universe and have more top characters be of the other various species that are around. It mainly seems like humans make up most important people in the galaxy. I of course understand why that is the case though.

I feel like forums are literally the only place to go where you can have a respectful disagreement with a person without being called names or there involving racism/sexism.

 

[Mjölnir]

I feel like forums are literally the only place to go where you can have a respectful disagreement with a person without being called names or there involving racism/sexism.

Yes, there aren't too many constructive and respectful places around so we need to cherish the ones we do have.

 

[InCali]

I feel like forums are literally the only place to go where you can have a respectful disagreement with a person without being called names or there involving racism/sexism.

Yes, there aren't too many constructive and respectful places around so we need to cherish the ones we do have.

I'd say the Mods and Admins have just a "little" bit to do with that. Some of the funniest moments I've seen on The Hype is C Lee bringing down the hammer of god on some dumbass.

 

[DerekLake]

They remade the rebel escape from Hoth, the imperial assault on Hoth (complete with huge four legged creatures vs small speeders on a white planet), a Falcon vs Tie Fighter chase that's not only from the OT but even from TFA, the throne room scene with the new Luke facing new Vader and new Sidious with a view of how her friends are about to die (complete with new Vader killing new Sidious), etc, etc.

Yeah, they really avoided all the derivative stuff in TLJ...

So it TLJ too much like the OT or too different?

You guys are all over the place.

There most certainly are a lot of reworked plot pieces from the films, and they were quite distracting for me, simply because they did not feel as natural as they did in the OT. I do wonder how they would have told these two stories without reworking practically every plot point of the OT.

In my opinion, these past two films (TFA and TLJ) have reworked the OT’s plot, but they have not actually managed to recapture the feel of the OT. Now, the central Rey/Ben/Luke story is promising, but here as in TFA it seems to be held back by an attempt to mirror the OT story. It’s two steps beyond mere “rhyming.” I do like Luke’s story arc (although I don’t prefer it), but it might have worked better in a different overall context. For example, technical difficulties aside, Obi-Wan would have been the better choice to speak to Luke about failure, and the last portion of the film (including Luke’s arc) would have been better had it taken place on the Supremacy — assuming, of course, a different B plot for the Resistance.

 

[Mjölnir]

I'd say the Mods and Admins have just a "little" bit to do with that. Some of the funniest moments I've seen on The Hype is C Lee bringing down the hammer of god on some dumbass.

Yes, good rules and good enforcement of them is key.

 

[Aximili86]

What a surprise, an ad hominem argument instead of having anything to say that's actually relevant to the discussion. Thanks for helping my position, I guess.

Adhesive, it's not an ad-hominem thing though, that's the thing.

Nothing you posted there is even true.

Crait doesn't play out like Hoth. The Falcon V.S. TIE fighters was in every OT movie, a dumb criticism to make. The throne room scene (aside from being, you know, in a throne room) plays out entirely ****ing differently than it did in ROTJ.

At a certain point these arguments you're making are irrational.

 

[PRIMUS]

I am of thinking that perhaps similar to Batman v Superman dividing. If that many people taking issue with film, something might not be quite right. That doesn't mean it's bad movie, but meaning of it missing target at the least

 

[Aximili86]

Except, you know, virtually everyone hated BvS.

Critics, George, and half-or-more of the fanbase are down with TLJ in a positive way. Not the same thing.

 

[Mjölnir]

Adhesive, it's not an ad-hominem thing though, that's the thing.

Nothing you posted there is even true.

Crait doesn't play out like Hoth. The Falcon V.S. TIE fighters was in every OT movie, a dumb criticism to make. The throne room scene (aside from being, you know, in a throne room) plays out entirely ****ing differently than it did in ROTJ.

At a certain point these arguments you're making are irrational.

No, he's perfectly correct. It's an ad hominem to switch focus to the person or people you're debating with instead of talking about the actual matter, which you completely ignored in order to talk about how supposedly funny and exasperating the ones that think differently than you are. I see no constructive worth in your previous post.

And he's right about the film as well, many things in TLJ are derivative. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, it's just you that brought it in as a negative to begin with. Making a sequel and a film in an established saga pretty much requires it to be derivative to some degree. It's also of course completely false that something needs to be exactly the same, down to the detail, in order to be derivative.

The "battle" on Crait is very similar to Hoth. That Falcon vs TIE-fighters is in every OT film is a great argument that it in fact is derivative. The throne room is a very clear rehash on several levels just like the other poster described.

I wouldn't say that doing things like actually making a scene with four-legged walkers on a white planet, approaching a base defended by smaller speeders, is the good kind of derivative though. As bad as the prequels were in execution they actually were more original than the new saga.

 

[DerekLake]

Adhesive, it's not an ad-hominem thing though, that's the thing.

Nothing you posted there is even true.

Crait doesn't play out like Hoth. The Falcon V.S. TIE fighters was in every OT movie, a dumb criticism to make. The throne room scene (aside from being, you know, in a throne room) plays out entirely ****ing differently than it did in ROTJ.

At a certain point these arguments you're making are irrational.

The fact that Rian Johnson (and JJ Abrams before him) introduced narrative twists to familiar plots doesn’t change the fact that this trilogy has so far consisted of a reworking of the OT story.

TFA: A former Jedi turned “Sith” (what he’s called doesn’t matter) searches a desert world for a droid carrying vital information. An ordinary teenager from that world encounters the droid, which is looking for an exiled Jedi Master (whose apprentice destroyed his Order), setting the teenager on a path to becoming a Jedi. The Jedi-turned-Sith is revealed to share an important family connection with the teenager/the teenager’s mentor, whom he kills in a shocking turn of events. At the same time, a powerful totalitarian military attempts to use a powerful planet-destroying weapon to wipe out a small ragtag force (located on a temple-filled forest world) and to wrest back control of the galaxy.

TLJ: The ragtag group finds itself Being chased by the totalitarian fleet, while the teenager travels to an isolated world to learn from a Jedi Master in exile who is initially reluctant to train the teenager due to problematic traits that could lead him/her to the dark side. The teenager fails to master the training, and leaves after an encounter with the dark side to face the Jedi-turned-Sith. The teenager turns him/herself in to the Jedi-turned-Sith in an attempt to redeem the Jedi-turned-Sith, and ends up face to face with the Jedi-turned-Sith’s old, deformed master in his throne room. The Jedi-turned-Sith betrays and kills his master to save the teenager. The teenager eventually joins back with the ragtag group loses a key member and heads to the Outer Rim to regroup with allies.

That the filmmakers introduce narrative twists doesn’t change the fact that they are reworking the same story rather than telling a new story within the same saga. The next film will likely be different, but that’s only because there are no more OT plot points to rework.

 

[BatLobster]

I mean, ever since the prequels we've been doing the 'rhyming'.

I do think TFA took it a bit far to the extent of feeling like a remake, but while TLJ obviously incorporates parallels to ESB/ROTJ (and some prequel stuff), by the end I feel like it arrives in a place that feels new and different. A Skywalker has actually overthrown his master and is the defacto "Emperor". Luke displayed a new force power on a massive scale that we've never seen before, inspiring hope across the galaxy. The idea of rebuilding the Jedi Order anew is taking center stage.

Some historians like to say the past doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. That's what George was going for when he made the prequels. I think these movies are definitely making the references to past Star Wars tropes more obvious, but at the same time I feel like TLJ accelerated a lot of that to clear the decks for more newness in Episode IX. Even though it's basically reset to Empire vs Rebellion again, it still feels like we've entered uncharted territory in the saga in many ways- especially with Rey and Kylo's characters.

Also, I'm sorry Crait was awesome. Sure, it's a nod to Hoth, but the devil is in the details. Those red mineral streaks makes for such a striking and unique visual and instantly gives it its own identity in the saga. And just the fact that they were using those skimmers at all, it gave it a sense of danger. Having it in the third act rather than the first act also meant the stakes felt higher.

That's another way I think TLJ did better with its "OT remixing". The placement of events in the story helps further change the context, whereas TFA tended to play out as a more beat for beat mirroring.

 

[DerekLake]

I mean, ever since the prequels we've been doing the 'rhyming'.

I do think TFA took it a bit far to the extent of feeling like a remake, but while TLJ obviously incorporates parallels to ESB/ROTJ (and some prequel stuff), by the end I feel like it arrives in a place that feels new and different. A Skywalker has actually overthrown his master and is the defacto "Emperor". Luke displayed a new force power on a massive scale that we've never seen before, inspiring hope across the galaxy. The idea of rebuilding the Jedi Order anew is taking center stage.

Some historians like to say the past doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. That's what George was going for when he made the prequels. I think these movies are definitely making the references to past Star Wars tropes more obvious, but at the same time I feel like TLJ accelerated a lot of that to clear the decks for more newness in Episode IX. Even though it's basically reset to Empire vs Rebellion again, it still feels like we've entered uncharted territory in the saga in many ways- especially with Rey and Kylo's characters.

Also, I'm sorry Crait was awesome. Sure, it's a nod to Hoth, but the devil is in the details. Those red mineral streaks makes for such a striking and unique visual and instantly gives it its own identity in the saga. And just the fact that they were using those skimmers at all, it gave it a sense of danger. Having it in the third act rather than the first act also meant the stakes felt higher.

That's another way I think TLJ did better with its "OT remixing". The placement of events in the story helps further change the context, whereas TFA tended to play out as a more beat for beat mirroring.

Let’s try another activity: point out to me the ways in which the Prequels rhyme with the OT. I think that might help.

Kylo overthrowing Snoke is the exact same as Vader overthrowing the Emperor. The only difference is that Kylo Ren lives, and he doesn’t have the guilt of causing his wife or his son’s death to draw him back. The only uncharted territory is Kylo Ren’s ascension. And since this is film 2 of 3, there’s not much they can do with that since the third film has to also conclude the story. Simply put, the second film was not the place to “clear the deck” and start a new story. That was the first film’s job. In fact, it would have been better had they simply had (a more mature) Kylo Ren in charge of the First Order from the start.

But, going back to Luke, as I’ve said, I didn’t have as big an issue as I thought I would with his arc. I just felt that it would have been more impactful had Obi-Wan been the one to talk to him, and had the third act gone differently.

On that latter point, I did not much like the third act, the stakes just weren’t there. It was visually meant to be a callback to the Hoth battle, but it just did not feel like a “SW” third act.

First, I think it would have been better had the First Order recovered Leia rather than the Resistance. Have her SuperLeia moment if you will, but it should have revealed that she was actually moving toward the Supremacy, not the Resistance ship. Give her one or two conversations with her son. I think that would have benefitted her character rather than sticking her in a brief coma. Then, when Luke does return, have it be on the Supremacy while Poe, Finn and Rose attempt to rescue her (much more tangible a goal than disabling a hyperspace tracker). Then, after the Rey, Kylo, Snoke scenes, make a callback to Luke and Han’s rescue attempt from ANH (but this time with Finn, Poe and Rose), give Luke and Leia one strong, poignant, memorable last scene together, and then have Luke confront Ben. All on the Supremacy.

Because callbacks are effective, and they do work when used sparingly. And rhyming does work as a thematic tie. But not when the entire plot is essentially a reworking of what has come before.

 

[BatLobster]

Let’s try another activity: point out to me the ways in which the Prequels rhyme with the OT. I think that might help.

If you haven't heard of Star Wars Ring theory, it's pretty interesting. I'm not one of those saying Lucas intended all of these things to every last detail, but I think regardless it just shows there's a lot of inherent repetition in the Star Wars saga. http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/

The idea is that not only are there parallels beween 1-4, 2-5, 3-6, but there's also a palindromic type of rhyming going on between 1-6, 2-5, 3-4.

For example...in Episode I, obviously similar beat to Episode IV are Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan being struck down in battle down to the "No!!!" scream (this also paralleled in VII with Han's death), and Luke/Anakin blowing up the Death Star/Droid Control ship. At the same time, the final battle with the Ewoks in VI is also being echoed with the Gungans in I as both are showing a more primitive society going up against a big war machine.

These parallels are all over the prequels as you'll see if you check out that article. Again, I'm not going to make any claims about how intended they all were by George, but either way, they're there. And he at the very least was going for that in a broader sense. There are plenty of pretty obvious ones that I was always aware of before I even knew Ring Theory was a thing. Episode II features two characters off on a side story that allows them to fall in love, our hero acts impulsively and is lured into a trap in the third act after facing a trial with the dark side. Sith has some obvious parallels to Jedi even down to their titles, thinking specifically of the "throne room" parallel with Anakin killing Dooku with Palpatine watching on during a big space battle (going wrong where Luke went right) and effectively becoming Palpatine's new apprentice.

Spoiler

I'm just naming a few that instantly spring to mind, but they're all over the place.

[YT]bxU2eqZtYmc[/YT]

Kylo overthrowing Snoke is the exact same as Vader overthrowing the Emperor. The only difference is that Kylo Ren lives, and he doesn’t have the guilt of causing his wife or his son’s death to draw him back. The only uncharted territory is Kylo Ren’s ascension. And since this is film 2 of 3, there’s not much they can do with that since the third film has to also conclude the story. Simply put, the second film was not the place to “clear the deck” and start a new story. That was the first film’s job. In fact, it would have been better had they simply had (a more mature) Kylo Ren in charge of the First Order from the start.

I don't think it's exactly the same at all. He basically did what Vader always wanted to do. Vader wasn't "overthrowing the Emperor" in VI. He was saving his son, dying in the process. In Revenge of the Sith, he wants to overthrow him and rule with Padme by side. Then again with Luke in Empire. The difference here is Kylo has actually done it. He's no longer subservient to any master, he now has everything he ever wanted in a sense. You could call that a small difference, but to me it's entirely new territory. This is like seeing what would've happened if Anakin overthrew the Emperor in Revenge of the Sith.

 

[DerekLake]

If you haven't heard of Star Wars Ring theory, it's pretty interesting. I'm not one of those saying Lucas intended all of these things to every last detail, but I think regardless it just shows there's a lot of inherent repetition in the Star Wars saga. http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/

The idea is that not only are there parallels beween 1-4, 2-5, 3-6, but there's also a palindromic type of rhyming going on between 1-6, 2-5, 3-4.

For example...in Episode I, obviously similar beat to Episode IV are Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan being struck down in battle down to the "No!!!" scream, and Luke/Anakin blowing up the Death Star/Droid Control ship. At the same time, the final battle with the Ewoks in VI is also being echoed with the Gungans in I as both are showing a more primitive society going up against a big war machine.

These parallels are all over the prequels as you'll see if you check out that article. Again, I'm not going to make any claims about how intended they all were by George, but either way, they're there. And he at the very least was going for that in a broader sense. There are plenty of pretty obvious ones that I was always aware of before I even knew Ring Theory was a thing. Episode II features two characters off on a side story that allows them to fall in love, our hero is lured into a trap in the third act after facing a trial with the dark side. Sith has some obvious parallels to Jedi even down to their titles, thinking specifically of the "throne room" parallel with Anakin killing Dooku with Palpatine watching on during a big space battle (going wrong where Luke went right) and effectively becoming Palpatine's new apprentice.

Spoiler

I'm just naming a few that instantly spring to mind, but they're all over the place.

[YT]bxU2eqZtYmc[/YT]

Thanks. The Prequels copy form and dialogue at certain points as callbacks to the OT. As you rightly point out. What they don’t do is have Anakin actually destroy a new Death Star-ship in a trench run; rather, he flies in through a hangar bay of a sort of spherical ship that’s powering a droid army. And when Anakin fights Dooku in Palpatine’s presence in an observation deck with a throne, it is meant deliberately to echo what happens in ROTJ, because this is how Palpatine operates. But even in that fight, the context is different. Anakin isn’t there because he wants to redeem Dooku, and Dooku isn’t offering him to Palpatine to turn him to the dark side. That is, of course, how the events play out in both ROTJ and TLJ, which is much more than just rhyming.

I don't think it's exactly the same at all. He basically did what Vader always wanted to do. Vader wasn't "overthrowing the Emperor" in VI. He was saving his son, dying in the process. In Revenge of the Sith, he wants to overthrow him and rule with Padme by side. Then again with Luke in Empire. The difference here is Kylo has actually done it. He's no longer subservient to any master, he now has everything he ever wanted in a sense. You could call that a small difference, but to me it's entirely new territory. This is like seeing what would've happened if Anakin overthrew the Emperor in Revenge of the Sith.

Vader quite literally overthrew the Emperor... that he didn’t intend to take the throne doesn’t really matter, because the entire context and set up is the same. Jedi in training turns him/herself in to try to redeem the fallen Jedi, but gets taken before the dark side Master. The evil Master tries to get the Jedi to convert or die, but the fallen Jedi kills his evil Master before the Jedi in training dies. The only difference is the ultimate outcome. There were plenty of other ways in which Kylo Ren could overthrow Snoke, but they chose to copy ROTJ’s plot.

 

[BatLobster]

Vader quite literally overthrew the Emperor... that he didn’t intend to take the throne doesn’t really matter, because the entire context and set up is the same. Jedi in training turns him/herself in to try to redeem the fallen Jedi, but gets taken before the dark side Master. The evil Master tries to get the Jedi to convert or die, but the fallen Jedi kills his evil Master before the Jedi in training dies. The only difference is the ultimate outcome. There were plenty of other ways in which Kylo Ren could overthrow Snoke, but they chose to copy ROTJ’s plot.

It's an obvious parallel...I mean it's not like they're trying to sneak it by anyone, it's clearly meant to be that beat, but IMO Kylo's intentions and the ultimate outcome do change the context. We've also never seen the hero and villain of a SW trilogy fight side by side like that.

Will have to agree to disagree there.

 

[DerekLake]

It's an obvious parallel...I mean it's not like they're trying to sneak it by anyone, it's clearly meant to be that beat, but IMO Kylo's intentions and the ultimate outcome do change the context. We've also never seen the hero and villain of a SW trilogy fight side by side like that.

Will have to agree to disagree there.

My point is that it’s more than just a parallel, and if they were going to do that, then they might as well have made it more interesting. Since I can only truly speak for me, Snoke was not developed enough for me to care about Kylo Ren killing him. And the fact that they followed ESB and ROTJ to get to that point only took me out of it more, because I have seen this done in a much more memorable way. It is almost as if these filmmakers are trying to compete with the OT in a “Who did it better” kind of way.

Again, Luke’s arc, including his scenes with Rey, feel somewhat different because although they give us the old Jedi Master in a foggy area with a strong dark side presence nearby, the actual plot and story are different enough.

 

[Hypestyle]

I liked it
(spoilers)

Spoiler

I suspect that he'll come back to advise Rey as Ben came back to advise Luke.

I wish he had lived so that we could have gotten to see some CGI-abetted Jedi action like we got to see in Rogue One with Darth Vader. Oh, well. I guess it just wasn't meant to be.

I figured that he'd be a reluctant teacher to Rey, but I wanted more of an extended teaching sequence, like we got to see with Luke and Yoda and Luke with Ben.

I didn't know that Jedi illusion casting could go that deep as to fool droids, but I suppose it was necessary plot-wise.