Movie Super Villains, which do you prefer, tragic or evil?

[The Overlord]

What kind of super villains do you prefer in films, tragic ones or evil ones?

 

[BobJM]

It depends, really on the character.

Doc Ock's tragic story made the SM2 amazing, but that doesn't mean I'd wanna see Joker turned into a sympathetic villain.

That being said, however, I think a truly evil character always raises the stakes much higher for the protagonist.

 

[The Question]

I think both is better.

 

[webhead731]

Yes, both can be really awesome, so I agree.

 

[3dman27]

evil i like my villans scum incarnate

 

[The Question]

Yes, both can be really awesome, so I agree.

Take, for example, The Joker. His backstory as given by Alan Moore, and the nature of his insanity as given by Grant Morrison, is very sad. You can easily feel sorry for him if you look at it like that. But he's still done terrible things, and can be one scary muther ****er if the mood strikes him.

 

[Dr. Fate]

I think both is better.

Yeah, a little bit of both works wonders.

 

[The Overlord]

Take, for example, The Joker. His backstory as given by Alan Moore, and the nature of his insanity as given by Grant Morrison, is very sad. You can easily feel sorry for him if you look at it like that. But he's still done terrible things, and can be one scary muther ****er if the mood strikes him.

I'm sorry but I can't feel sorry for Joker, Joker is pure evil and him being killed would be a God send to the people of Gotham. To be truly tragic villain you have to have a villain whose methods are counter balanced of by their tragic nature. For example: with Magneto he is villain because he wants to set up a society where mutants are free from discrimination because of his own experiences with the Nazis, BTAS Mr. Freeze wanted revenge on the people who ruined his life. Joker doesn't do anything like that, he kills innocent children who had nothing to do with problems, because it is fun for him. Joker's history can't be used to counter balance his actions.

Look at the Red Skull, he grew up in poverty in post WWI Germany, that doesn't change the fact he is ther evil SOB in the marvel Universe (outside of a demon or something). The Skull is a war criminal who killed millions of people, no one would feel sorry for him.

There is a line between tragic and evil, you feel sorry for tragic villains and you hate evil villains, as soon as a villain crosses that line, they are no longer tragic, they are evil. A lot of serial killers have had rough childhoods, but i'm not going to feel sorry for them after they raped and killed a bunch of innocent people. The world would be better off without those people.

 

[The Question]

I'm sorry but I can't feel sorry for Joker, Joker is pure evil and him being killed would be a God send to the people of Gotham. To be truly tragic villain you have to have a villain whose methods are counter balanced of by their tragic nature. For example: with Magneto he is villain because he wants to set up a society where mutants are free from discrimination because of his own experiences with the Nazis, BTAS Mr. Freeze wanted revenge on the people who ruined his life. Joker doesn't do anything like that, he kills innocent children who had nothing to do with problems, because it is fun for him. Joker's history can't be used to counter balance his actions.

That's not true at all. A villain can be tragic and even somewhat symathetic and yet have methods that have nothing to do with their tragic past. The Joker is tragic because he was a pathetic man who went through horrible things and completely lost his mind in the process. And it's not that he kills people because he thinks it's fun. He's barely atatched to reality in any way that we'd understand. He is truely insane. And that is fairly tragic.

There is a line between tragic and evil, you feel sorry for tragic villains and you hate evil villains, as soon as a villain crosses that line, they are no longer tragic, they are evil.

That is inane. You can feel sorry for and hate a villain at the same time. Hell, if you pull that off, that's a sign of great writing.

 

[The Overlord]

That's not true at all. A villain can be tragic and even somewhat symathetic and yet have methods that have nothing to do with their tragic past. The Joker is tragic because he was a pathetic man who went through horrible things and completely lost his mind in the process. And it's not that he kills people because he thinks it's fun. He's barely atatched to reality in any way that we'd understand. He is truely insane. And that is fairly tragic..

So what? Everyone was innocent at one time, then they become monsters later in life. I'm not going to feel sorry for every psychopath who has a sob story. Joker comes across more as psychopath trying to use a sob story to excuse his actions more than anything else. Besides can you say Joker is insane on a legal level, that he can't tell the difference between right and wrong, rather than being a psychopath, who can tell the difference, but doesn't care?

Look at Joker's insanity, it almost never comes in the form of something harmless, at least in Post crisis contiunity. Has Joker ever being in a delusional state where he thought he was someone else, like thinking he was Napoleon or something? Has he ever done something like that?

That is inane. You can feel sorry for and hate a villain at the same time. Hell, if you pull that off, that's a sign of great writing.

Says you. Are you saying people should feel sorry for serial killer rapists, because they had a rough childhood? Because I don't feel sorry for them at all.

 

[The Question]

So what? Everyone was innocent at one time, then they become monsters later in life. I'm not going to feel sorry for every psychopath who has a sob story. Joker comes across more as psychopath trying to use a sob story to excuse his actions more than anything else. Besides can you say Joker is insane on a legal level, that he can't tell the difference between right and wrong, rather than being a psychopath, who can tell the difference, but doesn't care?

Well, first of all, because he's never been exicuted. If he were simply a psychopath who didn't care about morality, he would have gotten the chair ages ago. Because that isn't insanity under the legal definition.

Look at Joker's insanity, it almost never comes in the form of something harmless, at least in Post crisis contiunity. As Joker ever being in a delusional state where he thought he was someone else, like thinking he was Napoleon or something? Has he ever done something like that?

No, but that's not really the nature of his insanity. Really, Grant Morrison says it better than I do:

The reason he's most oftern a dangerous killer is because that's the "role" he enjoys playing the most. But he's not really aware of the ramifications of his actions in the same way you or I would be.

Says you. Are you saying people should feel sorry for serial killer rapists, because they had a rough childhood? Because I don't feel sorry for them at all.

I think people can feel sorry for them. And, I think they can hate them at the same time. It's not as simple as "you either hate them or feel sorry for them."