Movies today have no suspense/pacing

[Wesley Dodds]

It depends on who's making the movie. Some directors are worse than others. Ratner and Rodriguez cant pace their movies for ****, but something like The Coen Brothers edit their movies beautifully... No Country For Old Men being a good example.

 

[Sarge 2.0]

I'm not sure how you're getting that, but the films fatal flaw is the fact that it's been letting not only Jigsaw's actions seem some how justified, but even freaking Hoffman is somehow an anti-hero. But there is no shred of good in what Jigsaw did, or Amanda, or Hoffman, etc.

 

[The Dark Defender]

You understand... that's your judgment of the first one, right?

Especially when you don't even look into the first one's ending.... you called it "He was in the room the whole time!". If anything it says something about Jigsaw being a complete and total psycho and not actually the savior he is playing by putting these people into traps. Which would then take the depth out of the sequels that glorify him over and over as some sort of twisted prophet.

Except he's being glorified less and less as the series progresses, as I've already stated.
The films glorify his message, not his methods.

 

[Gilpesh]

I'm not sure how you're getting that, but the films fatal flaw is the fact that it's been letting not only Jigsaw's actions seem some how justified, but even freaking Hoffman is somehow an anti-hero. But there is no shred of good in what Jigsaw did, or Amanda, or Hoffman, etc.

The fact that Jigsaw not only has to watch... but in this case BE IN THE SAME ROOM... shows that he is almost like some perv getting off at the torture that he puts these people through. Heck, sometimes he even makes a new friend out of it.

Except he's being glorified less and less as the series progresses, as I've already stated.
The films glorify his message, not his methods.

Um... giving him the backstory of having lost a child to one of these people he would put in a trap... glorifies him a lot. Gives him sympathy for his actions that did not exist before.

 

[The Dark Defender]

I'm not sure how you're getting that, but the films fatal flaw is the fact that it's been letting not only Jigsaw's actions seem some how justified, but even freaking Hoffman is somehow an anti-hero. But there is no shred of good in what Jigsaw did, or Amanda, or Hoffman, etc.

His actions aren't justified and the films weren't trying to tell you they were, that's one of the reasons SAW III was my favorite of the series. It ends with the murderers getting their come-uppance, John's most important subject fails him because his methods did not work.

Hoffman will most likely end up either getting his, or turning away from John's work in SAW VI.

 

[Sarge 2.0]

Actually, I'm attributing depth where there is plenty and offering specific examples, you're ignoring them and saying there is none.
The traps and twists are a means to an end, they are tools to help convey the themes. I really don't care for the trap sequences that have no symbolic meaning or specific relevance to the victim (watching a prostitute get her wrists slashed or a guy get shot in the eye in SAW II did nothing for me, and I've already stated that I didn't care all that much for SAW's end twist because of how vapid it was). I only care about the traps and twists when they help convey the themes.

The themes are murky are best, and not explored with the clarity that you seem to get from it. Honestly, having torture devices represent some sort of ironic justice is FAR from original. And the Saw sequels are so ****ing heavy handed (they basically come just shy of smacking the viewer over the head and asking "DO YOU GET IT!?") with "symbolism" that is fairly lightweight. No matter how much you want to talk about the "themes" of the Saw films, you're not going to get much farther than the shallow end of the pool.

 

[The Dark Defender]

They're explored with plenty of clarity throughout the films; again, wich specific examples that their critics very conveniently ignore.
I don't recall claiming their they were the first morality tale serial killer type films. I said that they had thematic weight that their critics don't like to give them credit for.
"No matter how much you want to talk about the "themes" of the Saw films, you're not going to get much farther than the shallow end of the pool."

Not if that's the only place some viewers ever choose to look.

 

[Sarge 2.0]

The fact that Jigsaw not only has to watch... but in this case BE IN THE SAME ROOM... shows that he is almost like some perv getting off at the torture that he puts these people through. Heck, sometimes he even makes a new friend out of it.

And his traps always have some sort of "twist" that would be impossible for his victims to get at because they're not thinking clearly and basically acting on adrenaline. And his traps ironically punish adrenaline reactions and survival instincts instead of testing a persons will to live.

 

[Gilpesh]

And his traps always have some sort of "twist" that would be impossible for his victims to get at because they're not thinking clearly and basically acting on adrenaline. And his traps ironically punish adrenaline reactions and survival instincts instead of testing a persons will to live.

Bingo. So technically the twist of the first one is that we are all Jigsaw trying to get off by watching scenes of people being tortured.

 

[The Dark Defender]

And again, the films never glorified his methods.

 

[Gilpesh]

And again, the films never glorified his methods.

Then why does every single trap get shown in full detail and the gruesome aftermath get shown many times?

 

[The Dark Defender]

Because the traps have a symbolic meaning to the transgressions of the victim.

What do you think they're going to do, tell a story about a man having to confront those responsible for taking the life of his son that he wanted to kill and now has to face a moral struggle over whether or not to save them...but not show the situations?

SAW V centers around the theme that survival of the fittest is bs, we rely upon one another to survive and exploiting each other for personal gain is not only destructive, but self-destructive, seeing the way that the characters act and interact throughout the trap segments was crucial to that theme, what they were supposed to just skip and find the the last survivor at the end?

 

[Sarge 2.0]

Yeah, but it's pretty shallow, far from inventive or thought provoking. I mean, it's so ****ing obvious, and it's actually basically EXPLAINED through the dialogue like a ****ing instruction manual.

 

[Gilpesh]

"YOU SPY ON PEOPLE.... NOW CUT OUT YOUR EYE!"

[/Jigsaw]

 

[Sarge 2.0]

"YOU SPY ON PEOPLE.... NOW CUT OUT YOUR EYE!"

[/Jigsaw]

Exactly.

 

[The Dark Defender]

"Yeah, but it's pretty shallow, far from inventive or thought provoking. I mean, it's so ****ing obvious, and it's actually basically EXPLAINED through the dialogue like a ****ing instruction manual."

Which is funny, since alot of people still don't get it. BTW, you just went from criticizing the films for not explaining the message with enough clarity, to criticizing the films for explaining the message with too much clarity...

""YOU SPY ON PEOPLE.... NOW CUT OUT YOUR EYE!"

Which was a plot device used to draw in someone associated with the victim, setting up a story that comes together to be atleast as thematically driven, if not more so as the first film.

But screw that, these movies suck other than the first one, lets post irrelevant picture comments of pots and kettles...

 

[Gilpesh]

Which was a plot device used to draw in someone associated with the victim, setting up a story that comes together to be atleast as thematically driven, if not more so as the first film.

Then the drug dealer.... has to jump in a pit of needles!

Then the girl that cuts herself.... has to put her arms into blades to get a cure!

Etc.

 

[블라스]

Hahaha....ahh this was fun to read.

 

[Fanticon]

In your opinion...or IYO.

 

[-JKR-]

If anyone could go a day without mentioning nolan or TDK in a thread or comparing it to something else, i'd be freaking amazed at it!!!

Well, we're talking about suspense here, right? And The Dark Knight is possibly the best example, if we're talking about recent films. It was just an E-X-A-M-P-L-E.

I can't stand the whole TDK hype either, but when it's appropriate to talk about it --- what's the effin' problem?

It's a movie like others, and like others... there's nothing wrong talking about it. I hate how when there's hype about something on one side, there's gotta be hate on the other side. And you can't talk normally about a flick with either of both "factions".

 

[The Dark Defender]

Then the drug dealer.... has to jump in a pit of needles!

Then the girl that cuts herself.... has to put her arms into blades to get a cure!

Etc.

Which fit the drug dealer perfectly; and that one wasn't even meant for her, and I've already made mention of that being one of the more shallow traps and the fact that I didn't like it very much, and all of them were a part of something larger, connecting to the overall theme of that film that I've already discussed.

The story wasn't about their torture, it was about how they were associated with a detective that had screwed them all over for his own personal gain, and that his sins were coming back to haunt him in the form of those whose lives he'd ruined.
SAW II did screw up by not even bothering to tell us what specific trasngressions that most of the victims were even chosen for, and the characters were very 1D and shallow and I consider that a very significant flaw for the film, but Eric's storyline and the John/Eric interaction makes up for it. I still rank slightly above the first film because Tobin and Shawnee are by far the strongest performances in the series (I'd say the first film has the worst overall acting, though it's not as bad as its critics make it out to be), and the way that it all comes together at the end is a bit more relevant than a guy getting up off the floor purely for shock value.

Throwing around one sentence descriptions of the ways that the victims suffer offers no counterpoint whatsoever to the overall subtext of the story. You simply ignore the meaning behind the story and focus solely on the traps, as proven by the fact that your criticisms make no mention of anything else when there's clearly more going on. Of course I'm sure you have yet another sarcastic one or two sentence description of what else you think goes on in the movies to fire back with there, and maybe a stupid picture comment to go with it...
I'll just do us both a favor and not even bother reading that.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

With a shoe-string budget this has more suspence and better pacing than all of Steven Spielberg blockbuster movie's since along with about 90% of the crap out there imo.

[YT]ivwkbKFqsps[/YT]

 

[Gilpesh]

a bit more relevant than a guy getting up off the floor purely for shock value.

Seriously? Seeeeriously?

You keep accusing me of missing some 'hidden' subtexts in a movie that just bashes you over the head with any 'deeper meaning' that it has according to just you... And here in this thread I have said a few of the deeper meanings that come out of the first movie's so called 'shock value' ending.

And have you 'even addressed them with evidence and blahblahlbah'? Nope.



Also, let's just drop this because you are just about as blockheaded as the 'subtext' and 'deeper meaning' in the Saw sequels and we've hijacked this thread long enough.

Oh, almost forgot... here's your sarcastic picture that you want

 

[Doctor Jones]

Well, we're talking about suspense here, right? And The Dark Knight is possibly the best example, if we're talking about recent films. It was just an E-X-A-M-P-L-E.

I can't stand the whole TDK hype either, but when it's appropriate to talk about it --- what's the effin' problem?

It's a movie like others, and like others... there's nothing wrong talking about it. I hate how when there's hype about something on one side, there's gotta be hate on the other side. And you can't talk normally about a flick with either of both "factions".

We mention it because it shows a great example of everything. Plus, it's just a goddamn awesome film. t:

 

[SuperKoala]

I am spartacus