Non-Americans : Please Discuss Your Healthcare

[Kurosawa]

Not everyone is motivated by cash. Some people do it because it's the right thing to do.

Not many in the medical professions feel that way any more. My parents are elderly and we have had lots of crap experiences with the medical industry. I'd say 3/4 of them could care less as long as the bills are paid, maybe more than that.

 

[chaseter]

People are greedy.

I do have a question, what are some of the pro's and con's of your healthcare from non-Americans. Please be honest.

 

[chaseter]

People are greedy.

I do have a question, what are some of the pro's and con's of your healthcare from non-Americans. Please be honest.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Of course they aren't going to do something to lose their license, but why would they work harder without payoffs for it? What is going to make that now salary paid doctor work 20 extra hours in a week? What is going to make them give me their phone number in case I have pain? I am sure doctor's in Canada do a good job, but the doctor's here have reasons (MONEY!) to go above and beyond to provide a higher level of care.

To answer the first question, because they take an oath to do just that. To help people, to preserve life. It's not just a job, it's not being a banker, doctor's have a dare I say it, sacred obligation to do what's best for their patient's regardless of who they are. It's just a higher standard that's required by the job. If someone just wants to make a buck be a ****ing broker. When did oaths like for doctors, marriage, lawyers or service members become a ****ing punchline? What the **** did I miss?

Second: Doctors already work an extradorinary amount of hours and all those undocuments they take in they have to treat anyway. There won't be suddenly more people getting sick. Those people will just become more accountable.

Third: Now the phone number thing is odd. I'm not sure you need to be calling a doctor unless you have some extradorinary circumstance in any case. That's what 911 or going into the hospital is for. This isn't the wild west anymore and we need to adapt and give docs their space at times.

I can't speak to the docs from canada, I'm from Ireland. Never actually been to the syrup capital of the world.

For the final statement I could answer pride, professionalism, to abide by the oath they took or just cause they don't want to see a human being suffer unnecessarily when they are the most qualified and able to help. Take your pick.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Why do Firefighters do their job? It sure as hell isn't for the money.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Certian people mainly police, service members, doctors, firefighters, clergy, public officials have a higher obligation then the standard just make your monies. If you can't handle that or refuse to put others before yourself you need to not take those jobs.

 

[Kurosawa]

Certian people mainly police, service members, doctors, firefighters, clergy, public officials have a higher obligation then the standard just make your monies. If you can't handle that or refuse to put others before yourself you need to not take those jobs.

I agree 100%. Anyone who is smart enough to be a doctor can find another line of work if their goal is just money.

 

[Franklin Richards]

I suggest Real Estate.

 

[chaseter]

To answer the first question, because they take an oath to do just that. To help people, to preserve life. It's not just a job, it's not being a banker, doctor's have a dare I say it, sacred obligation to do what's best for their patient's regardless of who they are. It's just a higher standard that's required by the job. If someone just wants to make a buck be a ****ing broker. When did oaths like for doctors, marriage, lawyers or service members become a ****ing punchline? What the **** did I miss?

Second: Doctors already work an extradorinary amount of hours and all those undocuments they take in they have to treat anyway. There won't be suddenly more people getting sick. Those people will just become more accountable.

Third: Now the phone number thing is odd. I'm not sure you need to be calling a doctor unless you have some extradorinary circumstance in any case. That's what 911 or going into the hospital is for. This isn't the wild west anymore and we need to adapt and give docs their space at times.

I can't speak to the docs from canada, I'm from Ireland. Never actually been to the syrup capital of the world.

For the final statement I could answer pride, professionalism, to abide by the oath they took or just cause they don't want to see a human being suffer unnecessarily when they are the most qualified and able to help. Take your pick.

If doctors took an oath to help out anybody and do the best of their abilities, then they would be doing pro bono work 24/7. Some do, I salute those people. Some doctors donate free time to the Red Cross and disaster relief. With their own practice, they do the best of their ability because they like their job and/or they like the pay. They fulfill all of their duties as a physician so that they can keep their jobs and because they like to help out people, I agree. But, at the end of the day, they want to have a good life and give a good life to their family. As with anything, if you take away competition, quality and efficiency will decrease. These doctors will continue to do their jobs but as I said, there is no reason for them to stay an extra 4 hours if they don't get paid to do it. Not saying that some will to, as you said, fulfill their vow, but not every doctor is like that.

There will be more people going to see the doctors because they now have access to it. Volume will increase.

When I broke my thumb and just recently when I got a root canal, my doctor and my dentist gave me their phone number to call if things get out of hand. My family physician even called everyday to check up on my brother when he had his tonsils removed. They are friendly and they go above their obligations because they want to keep their business and their job. It is a service industry. The people at the USPS, the DMV, etc...are in all of my experiences, zombies that are just doing their job. They have no incentives to do a stellar job. Now I have never been to a country where Universal healthcare is used and myself have used it so I can't say for certain what it will or won't be like but I can make simple observations and deduce what the situation might be like from what happens here and form an opinion thusly.

I never said that they would let people suffer. I made an example of being overly friendly, having Holiday cards posted throughout their waiting room, actually forming a relationship with the patient, etc...I never said that they would put a bandage over a gaping wound and send you off. It will lose its personal touch is all I am saying.


As per this thread, do doctors outside of the US do that? Are they overly friendly, have tons of Christmas cards, know your name without looking at a chart, smile and make jokes with you, actually engage in conversation to learn things abotu you, etc...? Or, are they like the ER's here and just trying to get everyone in and out.

 

[Prison Mike]

Of course they aren't going to do something to lose their license, but why would they work harder without payoffs for it? What is going to make that now salary paid doctor work 20 extra hours in a week? What is going to make them give me their phone number in case I have pain? I am sure doctor's in Canada do a good job, but the doctor's here have reasons (MONEY!) to go above and beyond to provide a higher level of care.

this may be true for some doctors but I'd like to think that there are some out there who are not solely motivated by money and would genuinely go above and beyond for their patients without any incentive/reward.

 

[chaseter]

That is why I said that in my post

 

[hippie_hunter]

Ok. We get it. You think people are evil.

I wouldn't say that people as a whole are evil, just more along the lines of incredibly ignorant. I would say that Richard Donner's Jor-El describes us perfectly:

"They can be a great people...they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way."

 

[Prison Mike]

too bad Superman is not real...

 

[BatMatt]

I wouldn't say that people as a whole are evil, just more along the lines of incredibly ignorant. I would say that Richard Donner's Jor-El describes us perfectly:

"They can be a great people...they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way."

I like the quote from NIXON, when RN is looking at the picture of JFK

"When people look at you they see who they want to be, when they look at me, they see who they are"

 

[gap5ewl]

There is a episode from PBS's Frontline called "Sick Around the World" where correspondent T.R. Reid goes to five western countries with universal care (UK, Germany, Japan, Switzerland and Taiwan) to see the pros and cons of their systems. There's no ideology bias and it's actually pretty interesting. It really helped me understand a lot about the health care system and what we face in getting universal coverage. I suggest you guys watch it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/view/main.html

 

[Hound55]

That is why it is wrong. It should have been a study on Health Care Coverage, not Quality of Overall Health Care.

By that logic it would be fair enough if a hypothetical country with 1% of people having private health care and each having their own in-house doctor be higher than 38... sure, 99% of the country are pretty much screwed and have to go through hell to be seen to, but the quality of care and responsiveness would be awesome!

Because we aren't Socialist

No, because your country's become a half-step short of extreme capitalism.

I find it funny all of the negative stigma surrounding socialism whilst capitalism gets none of that. Both extremes aren't exactly desirable...

It is common sense. Private sector supports competition and competition increases quality.

I fail to see how what I'm suggesting kills competition. In fact I think the option I'm suggesting would keep the private options honest and working harder... they've gotten lazy and greedy and its an epidemic that has spread right through the health industry beyond just the insurance companies and sees doctors pumping unnecessary drugs down their patients throats.

Why would a doctor that will see patients regardless need to go above and beyond his contractual obligations? He isn't going to make more money so why work harder?

Yes... he will.

See this is the problem, the majority of people who are against a proposal of a decent public health system see this as a black and white issue... It's not socialism. Socialism would be bringing in that option and dissolving the private sector.

If you can find ANYWHERE that I've suggested that, let me know...

Doctors don't decide what should be covered or what shouldn't be, insurance companies do and we do need reform for that.

Duh. Tell me where I've said otherwise.

Obviously I haven't made this clear enough...

THE DOCTORS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

YOU ARE RANKED 37TH DESPITE... *DESPITE*... THE QUALITY OF YOUR DOCTORS.

People can get care here no matter what. They have to visit the crazy ER and wait which as you said is comparable to your system. Do I want that when I got visit the clinic? No thanks.

You liken our health care system to your crazy ER rooms...??? The small ER rooms which are THE ONLY WAY a HUGE number of people can receive treatment?

 

[moraldeficiency]

If doctors took an oath to help out anybody and do the best of their abilities, then they would be doing pro bono work 24/7. Some do, I salute those people. Some doctors donate free time to the Red Cross and disaster relief. With their own practice, they do the best of their ability because they like their job and/or they like the pay. They fulfill all of their duties as a physician so that they can keep their jobs and because they like to help out people, I agree. But, at the end of the day, they want to have a good life and give a good life to their family. As with anything, if you take away competition, quality and efficiency will decrease. These doctors will continue to do their jobs but as I said, there is no reason for them to stay an extra 4 hours if they don't get paid to do it. Not saying that some will to, as you said, fulfill their vow, but not every doctor is like that.

There will be more people going to see the doctors because they now have access to it. Volume will increase.

When I broke my thumb and just recently when I got a root canal, my doctor and my dentist gave me their phone number to call if things get out of hand. My family physician even called everyday to check up on my brother when he had his tonsils removed. They are friendly and they go above their obligations because they want to keep their business and their job. It is a service industry. The people at the USPS, the DMV, etc...are in all of my experiences, zombies that are just doing their job. They have no incentives to do a stellar job. Now I have never been to a country where Universal healthcare is used and myself have used it so I can't say for certain what it will or won't be like but I can make simple observations and deduce what the situation might be like from what happens here and form an opinion thusly.

I never said that they would let people suffer. I made an example of being overly friendly, having Holiday cards posted throughout their waiting room, actually forming a relationship with the patient, etc...I never said that they would put a bandage over a gaping wound and send you off. It will lose its personal touch is all I am saying.


As per this thread, do doctors outside of the US do that? Are they overly friendly, have tons of Christmas cards, know your name without looking at a chart, smile and make jokes with you, actually engage in conversation to learn things abotu you, etc...? Or, are they like the ER's here and just trying to get everyone in and out.

They do take that oath. If a doctor walks by someone bleeding on the street and does nothing they break that oath even though there's no money involved. Again certian jobs, the one's that were mentioned, transcend just a paycheck and people know that before they take the job. Don't be a teacher if you don't like kids and don't be a doctor if you're not willing to abide by the oath you take. It's not a hard concept, be honest when you swear to do something or don't open your mouth. I don't make promises I don't keep and everyone should be held to that same standard. Doctors make the same amount based on time not level of care. An undocument walks in off the street and they're sick that doctor must help them regardless. That's fact. I'm not sure what you're saying holds water because of that. There's no extra time no extra money, the job requires it, hospitals require it. It's just the level of attention we're speaking of and quite frankly isn't it better to treat the situation then put a simple patch on it that will have that same person coming back next month for another?

They have access to it now, that's what you're not getting. You walk into the hospital and you're sick even if you have no id or documents they will treat you. The main difference is those people get treated first, never have to pay a bill and are hassled less while they're in a delicate condition.

I think that calling thing is stupid. Good for you, but I'm not gonna hassle a doc or dentist on their weekends when they want that good time with their families. If I'm in serious pain I'll go to a hospital, that's what people should be doing. In my buisness if some ******* called me everyday about every little thing, honestly I'd screw them over purposefully on the next pass just for the aggrevation.

I get your aggraviation with gov. employees but I've always found them to be immensly better than an insurance company. They're actively inticed to not help you and deny your situation, they get bonus' for it. Imagine if that gov. employee actually got a bonus for making you leave frustrated.

Greeting cards and smiles? I've got to say, who the **** cares? I want my doc compatent, honest and capable of treating me to the best of their abilities. Most docs because of the way they're put through school with a survival of the fittest ******** mentality are kinda *******s with god complexes. I've found that true almost everywhere. I want effective treatment, demeanor I don't much care about and here most treatment isn't that effective, it's formulated not to be. When's the last time you ever heard of a doctor telling a fat guy that never gets any sun with high cholesteral to go work out in the sun for half an hour a day as a treatment over addicting them to some pill that they get a percentage for every sale they make?

Gonna end with this, you make an oath you stick by it, if you can't or won't don't make that oath and pick another job. If the oath is to do the best of your abilities then you do that, don't cut corners don't worry about yourself first, be a man or woman with some integrity and honor what you've said. We laugh off people that break oaths too easily when really they not only dishonor themselves and their professions but their spitting in the face of this great country and what it stands for.

 

[StorminNorman]

Certian people mainly police, service members, doctors, firefighters, clergy, public officials have a higher obligation then the standard just make your monies. If you can't handle that or refuse to put others before yourself you need to not take those jobs.

Becoming a doctor requires a lot more time and money than being a firefighter, a member of the clergy or a public official. It takes years of schools, typically massive loans and the constant fear of being sued. You can't ask people to go through all of that and then ask them not to make the profit they deserve because of some idealistic appeal to the greater good.

The fact is that people that can't afford healthcare are no more entitled to it than people that can't afford food are entitled to be fed or those that can't afford shelter are entitled to housing.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Woah now, while that's true you don't ask doctors to risk burning to death on a daily basis. A public official represents the voice of you and me and has the faith of everyone in their district, state, etc to do that to the best of their ability. A clergy member has the sacred duty to help those the most troubled and provide guidence and faith to those that need it most. A cop riskes bullets and danger and also has the duty to "serve" the public that he/she has so much power over. Do I have to explain a service member?

Here's the point, these aren't just professions, they are callings and hold more responsibilities than just a job. If you don't want that get the **** out of those jobs and do something else, cause someone that's wrong for that job will do immense damage to everyone they come in contact with if they regard it as "just a job".

****'s sake this is a superhero board. Everyone here likes the idea of someone with superhuman abilities that puts others before themselves because they have the abilities to make a difference. How is that different from being smart enough to be a doctor, or brave enough to be a soldier? The strong either help the weak or use them up, I've always thought the US was the place where the former happens more than the later. You want a cop you have to give a bonus to before they stop you from being mugged you be my guest, but you're not gonna like the result.


So you can't afford it or you have some preexisting conditions by all means go ****ing die in the street, eh? Ebeneezer where is your heart this christmas? If they are unwilling to go to the workhouse they best die and decrease the surplus population! Bah, humbug! **** some of the times I feel like I'm much more to the US ideal as an immigrant than any "natural" US citizen, actually scratch that, I'm pretty sure I am. When did just getting yourself by be the standard? When did we stop striving to be better citizens and people and making this country a beacon of what's right? Probably around the time reality television became popular.

 

[StorminNorman]

Because the idea of higher callings is nice and warm and fuzzy, but it doesn't put food on your table and it doesn't drive people to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on education or sacrifice years of possible fruitful employment for the appropriate schooling.

Doctors practice a science where we want the best minds. If the best minds can make more money in other fields, the medical industry will suffer for it. Canada has a pathetic number of doctors per person - because the incentive to become a doctor isn't there.

Healthcare reform in regards to doctors should be added legal protection, not less finical benefit.

 

[Nivek]

This thread would be so much better if the Americans here would shut the hell up and let the people overseas speak about their health care systems.

 

[Kurosawa]

This thread would be so much better if the Americans here would shut the hell up and let the people overseas speak about their health care systems.

I believe moralD. is Irish and is therefore comparing our system and maybe our physician's goals/attitudes to what they are in his country.

 

[moraldeficiency]

Because the idea of higher callings is nice and warm and fuzzy, but it doesn't put food on your table and it doesn't drive people to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on education or sacrifice years of possible fruitful employment for the appropriate schooling.

Doctors practice a science where we want the best minds. If the best minds can make more money in other fields, the medical industry will suffer for it. Canada has a pathetic number of doctors per person - because the incentive to become a doctor isn't there.

Healthcare reform in regards to doctors should be added legal protection, not less finical benefit.

One, ********, they get paid and better than the average US citizen.

Two, they are high callings, they just are. You're assuming almost god like power over life and death in certian situations, to compare that to what's required of a janitor is laughable.

Three, if all they want is that dollar and their that smart and dedicated there are other jobs that pay BETTER and require less. So why the **** would you be a doctor if that's the mentality?

Four, the average canadian has better overall health and gets sick less than the average US citizen. A lot of that has to do with crappy diet.

Five, part of being a doctor is that you want to help people. It's not all about the money or you will make one crappy doctor (or fantastic plastic surgeon). There's something doctors get that bankers will never know, a different type of payment. You ever save another man's life? I have and I wouldn't trade that experience or that life for a million dollars, you shouldn't devaluate that and put it akin to doing a job well, there's something in that moment and the look in that person's eyes afterward that is the closest anyone will ever experience to directly seeing God (or science). Some people like that, they used to call them doctors.

Doctors today get more by pimping out phara products then helping people. That's a damn shame and it shouldn't be that way but the industry is impossibly corrupted and any steps to even the playing field should and must be taken.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I believe moralD. is Irish and is therefore comparing our system and maybe our physician's goals/attitudes to what they are in his country.

I was an Irish citizen until 18, I've also lived in Russia, Japan, and Mexico for a while. I became a US citizen at 18 and joined the service immediately. I think I'm fairly qualified to compare and contrast the levels of service in medicine between countries well as I've experienced them around the world.

If I was critically hurt I'd want an US doctor and hospital, if I needed a family doctor I wouldn't want to go near one in the US.

 

[Nivek]

I believe moralD. is Irish and is therefore comparing our system and maybe our physician's goals/attitudes to what they are in his country.

I know, I was talking about the other U.S. citizens trying to inject their reality into the discussion.