North Carloina Police Break into Couples Home after Dispute over a Flag

The Evolutionist

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Mountain Xpress said:
The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office arrested activists Mark and Deborah Kuhn in West Asheville Wednesday morning after a complaint that the couple was desecrating an American flag. They say a deputy invaded their home and used excessive force. [The photo at right, taken by a neighbor, shows Mark on the ground, with Deborah standing by, during the arrest.]

The flag was hung upside down as an act of protest and had several statements pinned to it, including a picture of President Bush with the words “Out Now” upon it and one explaining the meaning of the upside down flag, a sign of distress.

The Kuhns, along with several neighbors and witnesses, assert that a sheriff’s deputy violently invaded their home at 68 Brevard Road. The sheriff’s office claims that the couple assaulted deputy Brian Scarborough and resisted arrest.

According to the report from the sheriff’s office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint about the desecration of a flag.

Lt. Randy Sorrell says that while the address was in the city of Asheville, “when we receive a complaint that the law is being broken, we have to respond.”

Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff’s department has no record of it.

After knocking on the door, the couple answered it and, after being shown the statute, said they complied and took the flag down. Scarborough then asked for their identification.

“The flag covered our whole front porch; he comes up with this printout about the law and tells us that we can’t attach things to the flag, that we’re desecrating it,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We tell him we’re not meaning to desecrate it — all we had was a picture of [President] Bush with ‘out now’ on it and a note saying this was not a sign of distress or disrespect. We did this because the country is in distress and we don’t know what to do.”

Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”

There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.”

The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”

However, the Kuhns’ account is backed up by Jimmy Stevenson, who was working with Ace Hardwood Floors nearby and asserts that he saw Scarborough break down the door.

“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out – I saw him hit the window.”

Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”

Scarborough sustained a cut to his arm when the window broke and Mark Kuhn had several cuts on his face from the scuffle with Scarborough.

“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”

Deborah Kuhn asserted that no warrant was displayed or permission asked to enter the house. After calling 911, she says, she ran outside and began screaming for help.

Sam York, who lives nearby the couple, was awakened by the struggle, as the Kuhns and Scarborough both came out into the yard. “I woke up to Debbie screaming,” he said. “Mark and Debbie were saying ‘you assaulted us’ and the officer [Scarborough], was demanding their identification. Then another officer threatened them with a taser. He told Debbie to back away or he’d taser her and demanded that Mark get on the ground.”

Sorrell confirms this part of the account: “When they were outside, one of the other officers produced a taser and he [Mark Kuhn] surrendered and submitted.”

Deborah Kuhn’s screams also drew the attention of Shawn Brady and several of his roommates, who live next door to the couple. “I run outside and ask them what’s going on and there’s cops chasing Mark around his car,” Brady said. “They threaten to taser him and demand that he get on the ground. He gets on the ground and we ask them what they’re being charged with. They tell us it’s none of our concern. I tell them they’re our neighbors and it is our concern.”

Neal Wilson, who lives with Brady, also saw the deputy produce the taser, he says. After repeated questions, Brady and roommate Tony Plichta said that the deputies replied that “they didn’t know yet” what the couple would be charged with.

“This is an outrage,” Brady said. “The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments were clearly broken today.”
Plichta expressed similar anger. “They actually wanted to know why we cared — these are our neighbors,” he said.

Following the arrest, the Kuhns were taken to the Buncombe County Detention Facility, where they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag. Their son posted their bail shortly afterwards.

This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.

“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”

After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.

A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.

Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.

Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.

Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”

After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”

— David Forbes, staff writer

SOURCE

I don't care how you feel about desecrating the flag, the cops were out of line on this one.
 
Aren't we allowed to do whatever we want with the flag?

This seems really out of line....
 
This is **** on a stick, I can't believe those cops did that. The ACLU is going to have a field day.
 
cops suck. more proof. smashed his hand and the glass pane fell out and cut his hand? good christ.... thats the worst excuse ive ever heard. how do some people sleep at night....
 
While I don't necessarily agree with flying the flag upside down for this reason, they have every right to do so. Those are the type of rights that we fight to protect. Is it somewhat disrespectful? Yes, but most things like that force people to think.

It wasn't hurting anybody.

The law enforcement did the worse thing the could have; they turned a quiet statement against the president, into a somewhat national spotlight on our liberties slowly fading away.
 
I hope these people sue that department for all that it's worth. :up:
 
this doesn't surprise me. it's the south, after all.
 
While I don't necessarily agree with flying the flag upside down for this reason, they have every right to do so. Those are the type of rights that we fight to protect. Is it somewhat disrespectful? Yes, but most things like that force people to think.

It wasn't hurting anybody.

The law enforcement did the worse thing the could have; they turned a quiet statement against the president, into a somewhat national spotlight on our liberties slowly fading away.
That's what I don't get about the United States, "The Land of the Free". You have the right to pretty much do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody, but making a political statement with the national symbol gets you Rodney King'ed.

:rolleyes:
 
I guess I shouldn't say that's what I don't understand about the United States as a whole, but the government's ignorance of public opinion and willingness to clamp down on defending its image violently to the citizens it is answerable to.
 
This is how the code is worded......

§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

I understand their symbolism, of flying it down, but in reality that is not how that signal is to be used.

BUT......

The police officer in question, had no right whatsoever to treat them in the manner that he did.....at all

And I hope that this family fights this in courts......not as it "was their right to fly the flag the way they did" because according to the code, it was not their right to do so...................

But, fight it as a massive abuse of power on the part of the cop.....what an ass....
 
That's what I don't get about the United States, "The Land of the Free". You have the right to pretty much do whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody, but making a political statement with the national symbol gets you Rodney King'ed.

:rolleyes:

Not true at all, we have the right to free speech until...

  • Someone makes a violent video game
  • Someone insults someone else's religion
  • Someone mentions *gasp* SEX! :wow:
  • If you just generally offend someone.
 
I hope these people sue that department for all that it's worth. :up:

meh, they have a 50/50 chance...I mean if the claim that the officer thought there was an emergency/real distress can be substantiated, then it'd be difficult to say.

I mean the act of the upside down flag IS to signal for help...as in the s**t has hit the fan/we're being held hostage/emergency call 911...it was MEANT to garner immediate attention.

If you wanna make a political point with how you hang the flag, fine, hang it backwards. Reserve upside down for emergencies the way it was intended.
 
Not true at all, we have the right to free speech until...
  • Someone makes a violent video game
  • Someone insults someone else's religion
  • Someone mentions *gasp* SEX! :wow:
  • If you just generally offend someone.

Actually, the Supreme Court said all of those things are protected...hell, even most cross burnings (see RAV v. Minnesota) are protected speech.

as for sex, it can only be strictly regulated if it lacks serious artistic, or scientific value and appeals strictly to the prurient nature of the act. :woot:
 
This is how the code is worded......

§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.

I understand their symbolism, of flying it down, but in reality that is not how that signal is to be used.

BUT......

The police officer in question, had no right whatsoever to treat them in the manner that he did.....at all

And I hope that this family fights this in courts......not as it "was their right to fly the flag the way they did" because according to the code, it was not their right to do so...................

But, fight it as a massive abuse of power on the part of the cop.....what an ass....

Judging from what happened in the Supreme Court with Flag Burning, I don't think that law is constitutional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it got that far up the ladder.
 
Judging from what happened in the Supreme Court with Flag Burning, I don't think that law is constitutional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it got that far up the ladder.

I don't wanna be a naysayer, but the Supreme Court won't bother with that case...flag burning is technically a fundamentally different question. The upside down issue is codified, the burning is not (except as listed as the proper way to dispose of an old flag).

The USSC won't rule on it as there is nothing to rule on...the code is the code and is within the Congress's enumerated powers, thus presenting no Constitutional question.
 
While I don't necessarily agree with flying the flag upside down for this reason, they have every right to do so. Those are the type of rights that we fight to protect. Is it somewhat disrespectful? Yes, but most things like that force people to think.

It wasn't hurting anybody.

The law enforcement did the worse thing the could have; they turned a quiet statement against the president, into a somewhat national spotlight on our liberties slowly fading away.

Well said. :up:

jag
 
Judging from what happened in the Supreme Court with Flag Burning, I don't think that law is constitutional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it got that far up the ladder.

THE Albafan said:
And I hope that this family fights this in courts......not as it "was their right to fly the flag the way they did" because according to the code, it was not their right to do so...................

But, fight it as a massive abuse of power on the part of the cop.....what an ass....

In my post, I specifically said that the rights to how they fly the flag should not be what the case is about........the case is about the abuse of power of the officer.........
 
I don't wanna be a naysayer, but the Supreme Court won't bother with that case...flag burning is technically a fundamentally different question. The upside down issue is codified, the burning is not (except as listed as the proper way to dispose of an old flag).

The USSC won't rule on it as there is nothing to rule on...the code is the code and is within the Congress's enumerated powers, thus presenting no Constitutional question.

I'm saying the law is unconstitutional because it interferes with the right to
protest using the flag. That's the same reason why flag burning was found constitutional. It doesn't matter if the law is the law if it's against the constitution.

In my post, I specifically said that the rights to how they fly the flag should not be what the case is about........the case is about the abuse of power of the officer.........

I was referring to the top half of your post, I guess I should've cut out the rest. In my opinion, it should be about both the law and the abuse.
 
If we took every thing to court, when we are actually "using a law to promote our political view, and using the law incorrectly...." hell the courts would be too full to hear any other cases....

IMO, the people could have made the same exact political opinion known by properly presenting the flag, with a poster, billboard whatever they wanted stating what they believe Bush has done to our country. IF they had done it in this way, rather than the way they did.....their other case would be even stronger.

They have a strong case for abuse of power....they do not have a strong case for the use of the flag. As soon as you allow the American flag to be used in whatever manner we wish, what will be next? Taking the Bald Eagle and hanging it dead in your front yard to promote your political opinion? I certainly hope not....

I plan on stating my opinion at the polls in the next election....
 

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