Official UFC Thread

[brainchild81]

I don't think Velasquez will be the man to beat Brock. I actually think Carwin posed a far greater threat to Brock because of his size, punching power & the fact that his wrestling credentials did stack up to badly against Brock's.

I just think Lesnar's size & athletism will be too much for Velasquez, it's all very well people saying Velasquez is a better technical striker than Brock, because he is. But to utilise that advantage he'll need to keep the fight on the feet & I don't think he'll be able to stop Brock closing the distance, bullying him & taking him down.

Brock's got the better wrestling pedigree by a good distance, if Lesnar wants the fight to the ground I think it's going there and he'll have an advantage on the ground. I'd expect Lesnar to have worked on his striking since the Carwin fight.. however I read somewhere part of the reason he looked lacklustre with a few punches in that fight was because he did no striking sparring, he had been doing only pad work for the duration of his training camp to get his technique back.

Alot of people seem to believe Velasquez is a cardio machine & that Brock's cardio is horrendous.. I laugh at this because Velasquez has only had one fight go the distance & most of his fights have been fought at a fairly average pace. Brock has been the distance once & his fights thus far have all been fast paced & explosive.. it will be interesting, I'd expect Velasquez to have slightly better cardio because he is smaller.. however I don't think it is a substantial advantage that he can rely on. If he is taken down & has Brock smothering him for a round, his better cardio will soon evapourate.

Anyway, next UFC event is in England. Looking forward to seeing Hardy back in action & I also want to see more of John Hathaway. The Bisping fight should be good as well.

I give Cain a good chance 'cuz he won't gas out like Shane did


WEC live on Vs right now. Bellator on Comcast in 20 minutes

 

[CrypticOne]

I actually give Cain a greater chance of beating Brock than Carwin. More speed. Plus, his size disadvantage is also an advantage. His hands can get past Brock's arms. Carwin couldn't land any clean shots cause his hands were so big.

 

[Paroxysm]

JONES VS. BADER IN THE WORKS FOR EARLY 2011
http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Jones-Bader-205-Pound-Showdown-in-the-Works-27267

 

[brainchild81]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Comcast has HDNet now. Plenty of good MMA stuff AND K1 on there.

 

[Paroxysm]

Brock's got the better wrestling pedigree by a good distance.

Cain wrestled two years NCAA, he wrestled four years of college, the other two were in JUCO. Brock did the same thing, he didn't wrestle four years NCAA.

And going 50-10 in two years in NCAA, winning a PAC 10 championship, being named conference wrestler of the year, and placing fifth in the country while going 1-1 with Konrad who placed first, is hardly a a good "distance".

 

[E-Man]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Comcast has HDNet now. Plenty of good MMA stuff AND K1 on there.

Dish dropped Fox Sports, so now I can't watch Bellator on my tv until the pissing match is over. I hate watching streams over tv.

 

[B]

Cain wrestled two years NCAA, he wrestled four years of college, the other two were in JUCO. Brock did the same thing, he didn't wrestle four years NCAA.

And going 50-10 in two years in NCAA, winning a PAC 10 championship, being named conference wrestler of the year, and placing fifth in the country while going 1-1 with Konrad who placed first, is hardly a a good "distance".

The difference between best in the country & being fifth best in the country is a good distance in my view..

Now not being from America or following wrestling I'm unsure about what Velasquez's actual wrestling record is due to many inaccuracys from various websites.

From what I can make out from doing some research his High School record was 110-10, however one place reports Velasquez's collage/university record as 86-17 & the other reports it as 77-37

Sources; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_Velasquez

He graduated from Kofa High School, where he went 110-10 from competing in Wrestling for four years in Kofa and won the 5A Arizona Wrestling Championship twice.

After Kofa, he graduated Iowa Central Community Collage with a Associates degree, he also wrestled for one season and won the NJCAA National Championship.
After Iowa Central Community College, he graduated from Arazona State University with a Bachelor's Degree in Education. He wrestled there for three seasons, and compiled a record of 86-17 and was placed 5th in the country in wrestling in 2005, and placed 4th in 2006.

http://www.profighting-fans.com/mma/fighter-profiles/cain-velasquez.html

During his three seasons at Arizona State, from 2003-2006, he compiled an overall record of 77-37.

Wikipedia used to say 77-37 as well as recently as a week ago because I was looking so it's obviously been recently changed.. the source apparently used for change doesn't actually list his record either so read into that what you will..

If this is all correct according to ;http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/velasquez_cain00.html

In Velasquez's first 2 seasons with them (Arizona State) he compiled a record of 50-10 as you said.. however there is no word on what his record was for his third season..even though when you look at the wrestling news for 2006 on said website he is clearly active. From what I can make out his third year seemed somewhat successful so I'd be inclined to believe his actual final record is closer to being 86-17 as opposed to 77-37.. however that being said 86-17 might not be 100% accurate either..

However even if his record was 86-17 it looks poor, (which it isn't) in comparison to Brock Lesnar's record of 106-5. I can't find much on what Lesnar's overall high school record was, however it is noted that in his senior year he was 33-0 so the chances are his high school record is more impressive than Velasquez's also.. Lesnar also had the chance to tryout for the Olympics however opted for a career in WWE pro wrestling due to him apparently being rather poor at the time.

Anyway the point is, the difference between being first/best & being the fifth best is a good distance, Lesnar's wrestling pedigree seems much more established & dominating than Velasquez's is/was.

 

[B]

I give Cain a good chance 'cuz he won't gas out like Shane did

Why is Cain immune to tiredness?

I don't see this fight going like the Carwin fight so gassing out from an onslaught of punches should be Cain's least worries.

I'm thinking this fight might go something like the Heath Herring or Randy Couture fight, a grinding win on the ground for Brock or a late (3rd/4th or 5th) TKO/submission.

I actually give Cain a greater chance of beating Brock than Carwin. More speed. Plus, his size disadvantage is also an advantage. His hands can get past Brock's arms. Carwin couldn't land any clean shots cause his hands were so big.

Cain should be a bit quicker, however that said Brock is pretty fast himself.. moreso with explosive punches or takedown attempts as opposed to bobbing & weaving away from punches though.

If Couture cannot out wrestle Brock & keep him pinned to one spot, I have serious doubts Velasquez will be able to do it. Couture is after all an Olympic calibre wrestler & he has also perfected said wrestling & translated it well into MMA. While Velasquez is slightly bigger than Couture.. I still can see the same outcome ie Lesnar being able to take Velasquez down & bully him against the cage.

I think Velasquez probably will be a future heavyweight champion.. but I don't think now will be his time.

 

[Paroxysm]

The difference between best in the country & being fifth best in the country is a good distance in my view..

Now not being from America or following wrestling I'm unsure about what Velasquez's actual wrestling record is due to many inaccuracys from various websites.

From what I can make out from doing some research his High School record was 110-10, however one place reports Velasquez's collage/university record as 86-17 & the other reports it as 77-37

Sources; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_Velasquez



http://www.profighting-fans.com/mma/fighter-profiles/cain-velasquez.html



Wikipedia used to say 77-37 as well as recently as a week ago because I was looking so it's obviously been recently changed.. the source apparently used for change doesn't actually list his record either so read into that what you will..

If this is all correct according to ;http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/m-wrestl/mtt/velasquez_cain00.html

In Velasquez's first 2 seasons with them (Arizona State) he compiled a record of 50-10 as you said.. however there is no word on what his record was for his third season..even though when you look at the wrestling news for 2006 on said website he is clearly active. From what I can make out his third year seemed somewhat successful so I'd be inclined to believe his actual final record is closer to being 86-17 as opposed to 77-37.. however that being said 86-17 might not be 100% accurate either..

However even if his record was 86-17 it looks poor, (which it isn't) in comparison to Brock Lesnar's record of 106-5. I can't find much on what Lesnar's overall high school record was, however it is noted that in his senior year he was 33-0 so the chances are his high school record is more impressive than Velasquez's also.. Lesnar also had the chance to tryout for the Olympics however opted for a career in WWE pro wrestling due to him apparently being rather poor at the time.

Anyway the point is, the difference between being first/best & being the fifth best is a good distance, Lesnar's wrestling pedigree seems much more established & dominating than Velasquez's is/was.

"The difference between best in the country & being fifth best in the country is a good distance in my view".

Well I'm disagreeing with you, the difference between 1st and 5th in D2 NCAA isn't that big of a gap.

 

[CrypticOne]

Why is Cain immune to tiredness?

I don't see this fight going like the Carwin fight so gassing out from an onslaught of punches should be Cain's least worries.

I'm thinking this fight might go something like the Heath Herring or Randy Couture fight, a grinding win on the ground for Brock or a late (3rd/4th or 5th) TKO/submission.



Cain should be a bit quicker, however that said Brock is pretty fast himself.. moreso with explosive punches or takedown attempts as opposed to bobbing & weaving away from punches though.

If Couture cannot out wrestle Brock & keep him pinned to one spot, I have serious doubts Velasquez will be able to do it. Couture is after all an Olympic calibre wrestler & he has also perfected said wrestling & translated it well into MMA. While Velasquez is slightly bigger than Couture.. I still can see the same outcome ie Lesnar being able to take Velasquez down & bully him against the cage.

I think Velasquez probably will be a future heavyweight champion.. but I don't think now will be his time.

Brock is scared to stand though. Even when he throws punches he closes his eyes. Big mistake right there. Cain just needs to land one to make Brock run.

Yeah, but Couture is 50 years old. Cain is younger and more explosive.

The only way Brock wins this fight is if he lays on Cain. Which he can do. But I hope Cain knocks him.

 

[E-Man]

MMA wrestling is a different ballgame than NCAA wrestling. Some guys who have great wrestling pedigrees aren't really all that great establishing their game in MMA. Munoz and Hendo(to an extent) come to mind. Some guys with lesser wrestling backgroudns also have beaten some highly decorated wrestlers in their career. Tito Ortiz doesn't come from a background as great as Vladdy Matyushenko, but in their match out dominated the wrestling and kept his title.

Now with that being said, both Cain and Brock have backed up their pedigrees. When it comes to wrestling I could see either guy getting the best of his opponent, but the reason why I think Cain will win is because he's better at everything else. Even if Brock is the better wrestler, Cain is still the better striker and BJJ guy. While both guys are young and growing every fight, Cain seems to improve at a faster pace than Brock does. Every fight Cain has is like a new revelation into how great he can be. That's one reason why I'm a huge Cain fan. The guy is a beast that hasn't fully developed yet, and he doesn't seem like the lazy type to never reach his potential.

 

[doih]

A question to all the MMA fans here:

when do you think MMA is going to become legal in New York?

 

[B]

Brock is scared to stand though. Even when he throws punches he closes his eyes. Big mistake right there. Cain just needs to land one to make Brock run.

Yeah, but Couture is 50 years old. Cain is younger and more explosive.

The only way Brock wins this fight is if he lays on Cain. Which he can do. But I hope Cain knocks him.

It isn't about being scared it's more about playing to your strength & your opponents vulnerabilities. His strength is his wrestling ability, athletism & his explosive power.

MMA wrestling is a different ballgame than NCAA wrestling. Some guys who have great wrestling pedigrees aren't really all that great establishing their game in MMA. Munoz and Hendo(to an extent) come to mind. Some guys with lesser wrestling backgroudns also have beaten some highly decorated wrestlers in their career. Tito Ortiz doesn't come from a background as great as Vladdy Matyushenko, but in their match out dominated the wrestling and kept his title.

I do agree to a certain extent, you can come from a poor wrestling backround & still be a force, or you can come from a superb wrestling backround & be a flop.. it's all about how well your wrestling translates into MMA.
Brock's style has taken to it like a duck to water, the fact that in MMA his opponent now has to worry about his fists & legs hitting them that to an extent they cannot take a wrestling stance that potentially could stop alot of of his shots.. however that being said Lesnar's wrestling backround/record was against high level wrestlers actually trying to stop him taking them down & controlling them.. and few had success in doing so.

Now with that being said, both Cain and Brock have backed up their pedigrees. When it comes to wrestling I could see either guy getting the best of his opponent, but the reason why I think Cain will win is because he's better at everything else. Even if Brock is the better wrestler, Cain is still the better striker and BJJ guy. While both guys are young and growing every fight, Cain seems to improve at a faster pace than Brock does. Every fight Cain has is like a new revelation into how great he can be. That's one reason why I'm a huge Cain fan. The guy is a beast that hasn't fully developed yet, and he doesn't seem like the lazy type to never reach his potential.

I'd dispute that Cain has improved faster than Brock, if you look at Lesnar against Mir on his UFC debut & then again in every match since Lesnar has improved in every single fight significantly.. and so has Velasquez as you pointed out.

Alot of folks seem to think that because Lesnar made 1 mistake in the Carwin fight ie throwing a punch then staying static leaving himself wide open to a counterpunch.. which Carwin through & sent him backwards, that his standup is bad. I'd say Velasquez has the better striking technique, still however Lesnar has dropped 3 fighters in 4 different fights with punches.. his striking can't be that bad.
After seeing how he corrected the mistake he made against Mir from their first fight in their second bout, I'd think Lesnar won't do the same **** he did against Carwin, against anyone else.

I don't think Lesnar will be too worried about Velasquez's 'better' GJJ, if he can handle a black belt BJJ guy & in turn one of the most dangerous submission artists in the UFC, I doubt he'll be too concerned about Cain's GJJ if he gets him on his back..

We'll soon see though.. I just don't think Velasquez has anything to offer against Lesnar that he hasn't already overcome, which is why Lesnar would be my favourite to take this one.


Anyway, UFC 121 looks like an awesome card overall. I'm looking forward to seeing Kampmann/Shields & Sanchez/Thaigo.
Brenden Schaub must have tried it on with Dana White's mom because he is in danger of being murdered in the octagon by Gonzaga.. if Schaub wins this I'll be extremely surprised.

 

[El Bastardo]

MMA wrestling is a different ballgame than NCAA wrestling. Some guys who have great wrestling pedigrees aren't really all that great establishing their game in MMA. Munoz and Hendo(to an extent) come to mind. Some guys with lesser wrestling backgroudns also have beaten some highly decorated wrestlers in their career. Tito Ortiz doesn't come from a background as great as Vladdy Matyushenko, but in their match out dominated the wrestling and kept his title.

Now with that being said, both Cain and Brock have backed up their pedigrees. When it comes to wrestling I could see either guy getting the best of his opponent, but the reason why I think Cain will win is because he's better at everything else. Even if Brock is the better wrestler, Cain is still the better striker and BJJ guy. While both guys are young and growing every fight, Cain seems to improve at a faster pace than Brock does. Every fight Cain has is like a new revelation into how great he can be. That's one reason why I'm a huge Cain fan. The guy is a beast that hasn't fully developed yet, and he doesn't seem like the lazy type to never reach his potential.

Well-said!

 

[Paroxysm]

Kerr, Coleman and Randleman's decline showed us that nobody is THAT dominant when it comes to wrestling.

It also strikes me that some people have a really simplistic view of wrestling and don't take style into account at all. We know the difference between high level BJJ practitioners or Kick-boxers, yet with wrestlers is just a case of naming achievements and little else.

I've watched a few of Brock's amateur wrestling matches and obviously all of his pro fights and it seems clear to me he's never been the rampaging bull the UFC like to hype him as. Rather he's been a more defencive guy who uses his size to hold off opponents and waits for openings to appear. It worked well in wrestling(although his competition wasn't as good as Cains) BUT in MMA it means he's never likely to get the takedown quickly vs an opponent with good defense.

 

[doih]

^^Kerr, Coleman, and Randleman's declines had more to do with lack of evolution, drug problems, various personal issues, bad injuries/infections, age, etc. than their wrestling not being up to par. Coleman still has ridiculous wrestling but it's not that useful when that's ALL you have.

Hendo's wrestling is actually pretty good, but he doesn't really make use of it.

GSP is the posterboy for 'MMA wrestling'

 

[E-Man]

I'd dispute that Cain has improved faster than Brock, if you look at Lesnar against Mir on his UFC debut & then again in every match since Lesnar has improved in every single fight significantly.. and so has Velasquez as you pointed out.

Alot of folks seem to think that because Lesnar made 1 mistake in the Carwin fight ie throwing a punch then staying static leaving himself wide open to a counterpunch.. which Carwin through & sent him backwards, that his standup is bad. I'd say Velasquez has the better striking technique, still however Lesnar has dropped 3 fighters in 4 different fights with punches.. his striking can't be that bad.
After seeing how he corrected the mistake he made against Mir from their first fight in their second bout, I'd think Lesnar won't do the same **** he did against Carwin, against anyone else.

I don't think Lesnar will be too worried about Velasquez's 'better' GJJ, if he can handle a black belt BJJ guy & in turn one of the most dangerous submission artists in the UFC, I doubt he'll be too concerned about Cain's GJJ if he gets him on his back..

We'll soon see though.. I just don't think Velasquez has anything to offer against Lesnar that he hasn't already overcome, which is why Lesnar would be my favourite to take this one.

I can see how someone thinks Brock has evolved faster, but Cain is still the fastest growing heavy in my eyes. Either way it goes, both guys have improved at a really great pace. They are hard working guys who learn fast, and that's one reason why I'm a fan of both. I really can't wait until they fight. It's going to be great.

And lol at people who act like the first round of the Carwin fight was the only thing that mattered in the fight. "OMG he got punched bad and ran!" Apparently winning the fight doesn't matter if you look bad at some point in time during the fight. By haters' logic, every MMA fighter sucks because they got hit once.

 

[B]

Kerr, Coleman and Randleman's decline showed us that nobody is THAT dominant when it comes to wrestling.

^^Kerr, Coleman, and Randleman's declines had more to do with lack of evolution, drug problems, various personal issues, bad injuries/infections, age, etc. than their wrestling not being up to par. Coleman still has ridiculous wrestling but it's not that useful when that's ALL you have.

Hendo's wrestling is actually pretty good, but he doesn't really make use of it.

GSP is the posterboy for 'MMA wrestling'

What he said. ^^

It also strikes me that some people have a really simplistic view of wrestling and don't take style into account at all. We know the difference between high level BJJ practitioners or Kick-boxers, yet with wrestlers is just a case of naming achievements and little else.

I've watched a few of Brock's amateur wrestling matches and obviously all of his pro fights and it seems clear to me he's never been the rampaging bull the UFC like to hype him as. Rather he's been a more defencive guy who uses his size to hold off opponents and waits for openings to appear. It worked well in wrestling(although his competition wasn't as good as Cains) BUT in MMA it means he's never likely to get the takedown quickly vs an opponent with good defense.

Are you kidding? Brock's style of ground & pound is one of the most aggressive in the UFC & in MMA period, the only fight you could even argue he played it slightly defensive was his second bout with Mir & for obvious reason given that he is a high level BJJ black belt & in turn one of the most dangerous men off their back in MMA as a whole.. even then he made Mir's face look like hamburger meat inside the first round alone just like the first round so labeling his ground work as defensive is darn right laughable.

If you wanna see overly defensive wrestlers look at Rashad Evans. He takes people down for fun & yet focuses more on holding people down than actually inflicting any damage or working for a submission.

I don't follow, what do you mean Brock's competition wasn't as good as Cain's in wrestling..?

Couture has very good takedown defense & Brock took him down a few times, I'd say Carwin has pretty decent takedown defense as well given his backround in wrestling as well as the fact hes near the same size as Brock & he managed to charge at Carwin like a bull & force him to the ground.. although Carwin's landing did allow him to bounce straight back up, he did however take him down in the second with ease.
I find it hard to imagine many men that will be able to prevent Lesnar taking them down, chances are if they sprawl or defend it they end up pushed against the cage due to the force/speed Lesnar puts into his attempts & end up being smothered/bullied by him there.

I can see how someone thinks Brock has evolved faster, but Cain is still the fastest growing heavy in my eyes. Either way it goes, both guys have improved at a really great pace. They are hard working guys who learn fast, and that's one reason why I'm a fan of both. I really can't wait until they fight. It's going to be great.

I'm a big fan of Velasquez although it may not seem that way given that I'm listing reasons why I think he won't be able to beat Lesnar.. this time.
It should be an exiting fight, I've yet to watch a Velasquez or Lesnar fight that hasn't delivered or entertained me, so the chances are throwing them into a cage against each other, that there will be fireworks.

And lol at people who act like the first round of the Carwin fight was the only thing that mattered in the fight. "OMG he got punched bad and ran!" Apparently winning the fight doesn't matter if you look bad at some point in time during the fight. By haters' logic, every MMA fighter sucks because they got hit once.

When it comes to Brock Lesnar, alot of the so called 'hardcore MMA fans' whatever have a relentless hate for him given his WWE/Pro-Wrestling backround & don't like having WWE fans invading MMA because of Lesnar and thinking its the "greatestz everzz1!!"

As a result alot of them focus on what he does wrong in the cage rather than what he has done right, they proclaim he has the worst striking you've ever seen because he got rocked in the Carwin fight completely overlooking the fact that he won the fight & showed great resilience/composure to come back in the second. As well as every other fight hes had & his standup has been as solid as anyone elses who comes from a grappling backround.

As a result of many hating Lesnar I actually find myself liking him, it helps that he is one of the few wrestlers in MMA that I actually find entertaining to watch because he actually wants to finish the fight & wants to inflict damage. His cockyness rubs me in the right way as well, I hate Rashad Evans because hes a cocky big mouth but I like Lesnar even though you could say he pretty much does the same thing.. irony at its finest.

 

[Paroxysm]

^^Kerr, Coleman, and Randleman's declines had more to do with lack of evolution, drug problems, various personal issues, bad injuries/infections, age, etc. than their wrestling not being up to par. Coleman still has ridiculous wrestling but it's not that useful when that's ALL you have.

Hendo's wrestling is actually pretty good, but he doesn't really make use of it.

GSP is the posterboy for 'MMA wrestling'

You just said it yourself, all three couldn't evolve, the wrestling was there but not much else. I think this will be the cause of Lesnar's eventual downfall. Brock doesn't have near as much success when he goes up against a other wrestlers. Brock doesn't have near as much success when he goes up against a wrestler. The fights with Mir and Herring really give people the wrong impression on what Brock's wrestling level really is, it's not an unstoppable force like it's made out to be.

It's funny that you mention GSP in their because his wrestling background is nothing compared to Matt Hughes who is a two-time Division I champ and look how that turned out.

Are you kidding?

Can you read?

 

[B]

Can you read?

Sure can & it looks like your calling Brock's style as defensive..

 

[Paroxysm]

Sure can & it looks like your calling Brock's style as defensive..

Well I'm not, I was talking about his amateur wrestling matches.

 

[doih]

I don't think it's accurate to say Lesnar hasn't really evolved. In the 1st Mir fight he basically bumrushed and threw hammerfists. He' a lot better at top control, positioning, sub defence, etc. Look at the way he trapped Mir in the 2nd fight. Lesnar's looked better each fight except the last one, where he got beat up for a round, but he still won right?

But yes, the 'pedigree' of wrestling in MMA isn't the most important thing for the simple fact that MMA isn't wrestling (that was the point of the GSP example). To use another example, Marcelo Garcia is a 160-170 pound man who submits people in the absolute divisions. That doesn't mean he could go into MMA and start submitting people left and right.

 

[Paroxysm]

Are you kidding? Brock's style of ground & pound is one of the most aggressive in the UFC & in MMA period.

I can't believe I missed this....

The only person he has finished with G&P is Mir who gets finished by LHW´s. He couldn't hold down a 250 year old Couture with a 50 lbs weight difference.

Currently Bones has shown some devastating G&P. Shoguns can be lethal. GSP when he goes all out is ****ing deadly on the ground, just ask Sherk. For all time, Fedors is pretty hard to beat, he just doesn't seem to use it that much anymore.

Best period?

 

[Paroxysm]

A question to all the MMA fans here:

when do you think MMA is going to become legal in New York?

When Bob Reilly dies.

 

[doih]

harsh.