Pilot that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima dies at 92

[teseract]

There is no happy ending in war. Only relief once its over (which probably won't exist if there is ever a WWIII) and then trying to cope with the losses.

Yes, exactly, that's why war is the most obvious testimony to human stupidity and I hope that, if there is justice dealt after death, the people who had to pay thre greatest price thanks to the folly of their fellow man get a chance to hold judgement over them and repay them their "kindness".

 

[Jerry!]

Well we kinda had to go to war with Hitler, it would be stupid to NOT do that.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

For someone who doesn't live in this country you sure have a lot of nothing to say.

I can see how you'd see condemnations by General Macarthur ans Truman's own staff as "a lot of nothing"

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Okay, let me ask you this then, also during the war, Germany sued for a peace deal with Western allies several times, because they were more interested in fighting the Soviets rather than their follow "Ayrans". Should the Allies have made a peace deal with Germany, rather than demand unconditoal surrender, should we have allowed germany to save face. after all the bombing campaigns in Europe killed milions of civilians, so would a peace deal with Germany have been better than that?

so, you finally noticed that there is not a simple cut and dry way to justify the bombing of Hiroshima ( and Nagasaki) and you're asking me about the Nazis now?

you're a bit weird.

perhaps if you had read a little more history you'd understand d why it was so important for the Imperial Japan to save face, you'd understand the nature of politics and how pretty much hundreds of thousands of people died so that the US could have an "unconditional surrender" when a cease fire would've produced similar results, with a consecutive treaty which no doubt would've still heavily favored American interests in the Philippines and other regions where Japan had interests.

again.
this is about the Bomb in Hiroshima.
how come no one wants to answer why the Nuclear bomb was left out of the surrender demand submitted to Japan?

anyone?

 

[Red Mask]

And yet it's always the people who are responsible the least for a war, paying the greatest price.

That's why things are slowly changing. Before we had bloody revolutions overthrowing rulers and have them executed arbitrarily. Now we've got a court in Hague to try dictators and others who participated in genocide. Even though many have died before getting to court, we have now a system that recognizes the demand to seek those ultimately responsible.

 

[The Overlord]

so, you finally noticed that there is not a simple cut and dry way to justify the bombing of Hiroshima ( and Nagasaki) and you're asking me about the Nazis now?

you're a bit weird.

perhaps if you had read a little more history you'd understand d why it was so important for the Imperial Japan to save face, you'd understand the nature of politics and how pretty much hundreds of thousands of people died so that the US could have an "unconditional surrender" when a cease fire would've produced similar results, with a consecutive treaty which no doubt would've still heavily favored American interests in the Philippines and other regions where Japan had interests.

?

Well if you hadn't ignored Lizard's post, you would have seen there were other factors that would made the allies acceptance of anything other than a unconidtional surrender, very, very, very unlikely.

You are acting like celldog, so convinced of your own moral superiority that you come of as supremely arrogant. Seriously you come off as a left wing version of him sometimes, with the same sense of moral self rightiousiness.

You know what answer Lizard's post, then I will discuss the matter further.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Well if you hadn't ignored Lizard's post, you would have seen there were other factors that would made the allies acceptance of anything other than a unconidtional surrender, very, very, very unlikely.

You are acting like celldog, so convinced of your own moral superiority that you come of as supremely arrogant. Seriously you come off as a left wing version of him sometimes, with the same sense of moral self rightiousiness.

You know what answer Lizard's post, then I will discuss the matter further.

LOL, how did I ignore Lizard's post?
it wasn't directed at me and uh....I freaking quoted the page before he posted about it. are you...like....that dumb?
plus it's a page on the debate, you do understand that don't you?
I like how you haven't been able to answer ANY of my questions and each of your posts becomes more and more abstract.

this one had like 2% response and like 98% deviation.

you haven't been able to respond to me and now you " challenge" me to answer a post that's not even yours and that doesn't even help your case?

ridiculous.

 

[The Overlord]

LOL, how did I ignore Lizard's post?
it wasn't directed at me and uh....I freaking quoted the page before he posted about it. are you...like....that dumb?
plus it's a page on the debate, you do understand that don't you?
I like how you haven't been able to answer ANY of my questions and each of your posts becomes more and more abstract.

this one had like 2% response and like 98% deviation.

you haven't been able to respond to me and now you " challenge" me to answer a post that's not even yours and that doesn't even help your case?

ridiculous.

Oh so you now are resorting to personal insults. Real mature. You now people can read same document and come to different conclusions on the info? No you are too arrogant to see past that and just assume that anyone who disagrees with you is "******".

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Well if you hadn't ignored Lizard's post, you would have seen there were other factors that would made the allies acceptance of anything other than a unconidtional surrender, very, very, very unlikely.

You are acting like celldog, so convinced of your own moral superiority that you come of as supremely arrogant. Seriously you come off as a left wing version of him sometimes, with the same sense of moral self rightiousiness.

You know what answer Lizard's post, then I will discuss the matter further.

LOL glass houses and such....

 

[Mr Sparkle]

plus, you haven't answered the simplest of questions.
why was the atom bomb left out the surrender demand made to Imperial Japan if it was already scheduled for use and it's destrcutive power a fact?

 

[souloffire]

plus, you haven't answered the simplest of questions.
why was the atom bomb left out the surrender demand made to Imperial Japan if it was already scheduled for use and it's destrcutive power a fact?

The atom bomb was left out because you don't let your enemy how they will be attacked. If they don't know they can't defend. Only three planes went into Hiroshima, a plane with cameras, a plane with science equipment and the plane with the bomb. If Japan knew they were coming and set up a defense the allies would have to go in with hundreds of planes to defend the bomber. Now it turns into a level of combat the allies wanted to avoid.


Now to address why America didn't demonstrate the power of the atom bomb. What if the demonstration failed and had no effect on Japan and they didn't surrender? Now we only have one bomb left and they would know how to defend against it.

These aren't speculation on my part but the actual historical reasons.

 

[The Overlord]

LOL glass houses and such....

I don't go out of my to to insult people i disagree, unless I think they have developed a arrogant attitude. there are many people on this board I get along with and disagree with. I don't treat anyone who disagrees with me as a "******", unlike some people.

 

[musclesforsupes]

I will pay my respect with a song.


Sometimes the world looks perfect, nothing could be the same
sometimes you just get a feeling like you need some sort of change
standing talllllll on the wings of my dreams
rise and fallllll on the wings of my dreams
rain and thunder wind and sun I am bound for better days
its my life and my dreams and nothing gonna stop me now

 

[Mr Sparkle]

The atom bomb was left out because you don't let your enemy how they will be attacked. If they don't know they can't defend. Only three planes went into Hiroshima, a plane with cameras, a plane with science equipment and the plane with the bomb. If Japan knew they were coming and set up a defense the allies would have to go in with hundreds of planes to defend the bomber. Now it turns into a level of combat the allies wanted to avoid.


Now to address why America didn't demonstrate the power of the atom bomb. What if the demonstration failed and had no effect on Japan and they didn't surrender? Now we only have one bomb left and they would know how to defend against it.

These aren't speculation on my part but the actual historical reasons.

good, finally we are getting somewhere.

however, the first part of your post seems a little difficult to believe, given the fact that Hiroshima had been pretty much left alone during the war ( some say it was to measure damage, but really, this kind of underscores how it didn't have any Military significance) there's no way that Japan would've known the target unless they had some magic 8 ball or something.
so, while it's not without merit, the reasoning seems flawed.

on the second part, it turns out to be Mere speculation on both our parts, I really don't think that any government would NOT surrender given a clear view of the destruction unleashed by the Bomb. I can imagine that several other targets would've sufficed and maybe even minimized civilian casualties, sure war is war and the Japanese were no saints in this one, but the intent of the bomb was pretty clear.

however, there's a flaw in the reasoning of the second half of your post as well.
it was intended to drop more than 4 bombs of Japan, and as we all know, at the time there was no way to "defend" against the atom bomb ( what would they do, build giant domes or something?) so, it kind of makes no sense.
you must remember to discern "historical fact" from "official story".

 

[Mr Sparkle]

and still Overlord is unable to answer questions.
poor thing, he must've been the star at his High School debate club.

 

[The Overlord]

and still Overlord is unable to answer questions.
poor thing, he must've been the star at his High School debate club.

See there's your attitude again. Did your mother actually teach you some manners or do you enjoy being mean spiritied. God forbid you should actually be nice to people. the question ahs already been addressed and I'm sick of your attittude. I'm not even in favor of the bomb dropping persay and I could admit that you may be right. I don't name call and act uncivil just because someone disagrees with me.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

See there's your attitude again. Did your mother actually teach you some amnners or do you enjoy mbeing mean spiritied.

my Mother did teach me amners, but she was Scandinavian and I guess that's normal over there.

 

[The Overlord]

my Mother did teach me amners, but she was Scandinavian and I guess that's normal over there.

That was typo that I just changed, it was unchaged for maybe a minute. This is really petty. I didn't have a problem with your arguement, but the way you presented it makes really made you seem uncivil.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

If you don't like his incivility, put him on ignore.
I LOVE his incivility....so I will not put him on ignore.
I come her Monday through Friday to enjoy his incivility.
You don't need to "endure" it, at all, for one second, if it troubles you so much.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

That was typo that I just changed, it was unchaged for maybe a minute. This is really petty. I didn't have a problem with your arguement, but the way you presented it makes really made you seem uncivil.

are you like...really angry? or is it really cold where you live and you refuse to remove your mittens?

 

[The Overlord]

If you don't like his incivility, put him on ignore.
I LOVE his incivility....so I will not put him on ignore.
I come her Monday through Friday to enjoy his incivility.
You don't need to "endure" it, at all, for one second, if it troubles you so much.

That's fine, I just hate attitudes like that in general, they rub me the wrong way. Trust me, I have seen many neo cons with similar attitudes and its not pleasant when it comes from the other side either. There is nothing wrong with acting civil.

are you like...really angry? or is it really cold where you live and you refuse to remove your mittens?

No, I'm just annoyed, attittudes are a pet peeve of mine, I seen a few neo cons with similar attitudes and it isn't pleasant when it comes from the other side either.

 

[souloffire]

good, finally we are getting somewhere.

however, the first part of your post seems a little difficult to believe, given the fact that Hiroshima had been pretty much left alone during the war ( some say it was to measure damage, but really, this kind of underscores how it didn't have any Military significance) there's no way that Japan would've known the target unless they had some magic 8 ball or something.
so, while it's not without merit, the reasoning seems flawed.

To say Hiroshima didn't have any Military significance is not entirely accurate, it was the main headquarters for the defense of the southern islands. We know there were invasion plans drawn up and that it would start from the southern islands, so taking out the headquarters for those islands makes sense. The Japanese would know this as well and would have been on their lists of targets.

on the second part, it turns out to be Mere speculation on both our parts, I really don't think that any government would NOT surrender given a clear view of the destruction unleashed by the Bomb. I can imagine that several other targets would've sufficed and maybe even minimized civilian casualties, sure war is war and the Japanese were no saints in this one, but the intent of the bomb was pretty clear.

The bottom line is no one knows if they would have surrendered if they knew about the bomb but America didn't want to take the chance. Knowing about the bomb in advance might not have worked considering it took 2 bombs and Russia to finally get them to surrender. Then again maybe it would. We'll never know.

however, there's a flaw in the reasoning of the second half of your post as well.
it was intended to drop more than 4 bombs of Japan, and as we all know, at the time there was no way to "defend" against the atom bomb ( what would they do, build giant domes or something?) so, it kind of makes no sense.
you must remember to discern "historical fact" from "official story".

My fault, I should have been more clear. I know you can't defend against the bomb but you can defend against the planes. What if the plane gets shot down and the bomb doesn't go off and falls into enemy hands? What if it's shot down oversea and goes off before it reaches it's target? Who knows there might be several ways to stop the planes from reaching their target. That's what I meant.

 

[Duende Verde]

And Now it's Time for a Little Musical Interlude...

 

[Mr Sparkle]

To say Hiroshima didn't have any Military significance is not entirely accurate, it was the main headquarters for the defense of the southern islands. We know there were invasion plans drawn up and that it would start from the southern islands, so taking out the headquarters for those islands makes sense. The Japanese would know this as well and would have been on their lists of targets.

then why take it out at the very end of the war?
especially since after dropping the A-bomb they had to know an invasion would not be needed.
so yeah, it probably had some Military significance, but again, the fact that US military left it untouched to "measure damage" along Japan would kind of tip the balance to the "somewhat important, but not that much really" area wouldn't it?

The bottom line is no one knows if they would have surrendered if they knew about the bomb but America didn't want to take the chance. Knowing about the bomb in advance might not have worked considering it took 2 bombs and Russia to finally get them to surrender. Then again maybe it would. We'll never know.

yeah, I know, like I said speculation from the both of us.
however, I had previously posted about the fact that before the Hiroshima Bomb there were already negotiations through Russia, since their main fear WAS Russia.
I think the lives of so many civilians were worth the selection of another target though, a purely military target perhaps, or at least one not so heavily surrounded by civilians.

My fault, I should have been more clear. I know you can't defend against the bomb but you can defend against the planes. What if the plane gets shot down and the bomb doesn't go off and falls into enemy hands? What if it's shot down oversea and goes off before it reaches it's target? Who knows there might be several ways to stop the planes from reaching their target. That's what I meant.

and I what I meant is that it's an illegitimate reason.
in order to defend against it, you'd have to know the intended target, since your military can't be stretched that thin, and theirs already was.
Nagasaki proved that you can indeed deliver atomic power after a demonstration and that there was no real way to stop it at the time.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

AHAHAHAHAHA! now THAT's Funny! you dropped a bomb on me.
works on so many levels, from the Hiroshima to sick German Fetish "poop on my chest" crowd.