Pre-Crisis Superman Query

[Genesis 1.0]

Now this is something that Mrokner and myself have been debating via PM for some time now and I've decided to put it to rest hopefully in a definitive fashion.

Cutting this down to the quick, Mrokner is steadfast in his belief that Pre-Crisis Superman could, and I quote, 'defeat Phoenix any day of the week'. Now I suggested that we make a thread about this and he refused saying that doing so in a Marvel thread would be too biased. Well I've taken care of that problem by posting the issue here instead.

Hey, he thinks I'm biased against Pre-Crisis Superman, I don't think so but maybe I am being unfair to his point of view. Now I've read most of the Pre-Crisis Superman work but by no means would I say I'm an expert on the subject so would anyone that is familar with both characters voice their respective opinons on the subject? I don't want Mrokner bashed on or anything, but I would like to hear it from the 'other side of the coin' so to speak. I've told him Pre-Crisis Superman was nowhere near that range but hell, I may very well be wrong.

Thanks

 

[Green Lantern]

Pre-Crisis Superman towed GALAXIES around like he was a tug boat for them...

 

[Genesis 1.0]

See what I mean? I've never read anything with him pulling around galaxies, which is indeed a feat greater than I thought him capable of. However you didn't answer the core of the question at hand:

Can Pre-Crisis Superman defeat Phoenix?

From the way this is starting out, I may owe mrokner an apology, lol.

 

[Purple Man]

Pre-Crisis Superman towed GALAXIES around like he was a tug boat for them...

And Phoenix ate galaxies like she was Oprah with a box of Oreos.

Phoenixs power has fluctuated a great deal, but at her darkest I'm sure she could suck the solar energy out of him and peel his mind like a grape.

 

[sethcohen]

im pretty sure that phoenix could just litterally dismember PC supes on a moleculor level...

 

[Ultimate_Superman]

Not really remember Pre-Crisis was Smart a hell. He use to create suns, tow planets with one hand and didn't even break a sweat. Could stand up to Pre-Crisis Darkseid (who by the way would own Phoenix like it was nothing) he would travel in time at will (meaning if he wanted to get away go back in time) To be honest pre-crisis Superman was as powerful as Phoenix only he wouldn't eat galaxies but he would have no problem making suns for them.

 

[Green Lantern]

Throwing a ship ACROSS the galaxy.

and Pre-Crisis SuperBOY towing galaxies around.

Taken from X's Wacky Pre-Crisis Thread
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163517

 

[mrokner]

I will admit that I'm biased; I am a DC guy and I like Superman. Having said that, sadly, I don't think Superman could take on Dark Phoenix. But I believe PC Superman can. He had all these crazy powers. Literally, the guy had a laundry list of powers, thanks in part due to the science fiction craze 50 years ago. I've seen him quoted as being truly omnipotent. To be clear, I'm talking about the Silver age version, not the Golden Age. (I remember in the very first issue, he didn't fly; he leaped, a la Hulk.) I did say he can beat her any of the week, but the fight might as well take a week or a month! The most well-known fact of PC Superman is his body wasn't a battery that stored the energies of the Sun. Effectively, his body could store an infinite amount of energy; so, he could fight forever and never tire. She could suck out his energy for an eon and he'd still be just as strong and just as omnipotent the day she started feasting on him. And when I see the word omnipotent, I think of Thanos w/Infinity Guantlet. Just my opinion. As I stated to Genesis, the only opinions that matter are those of Marvel and DC because they put the comics together. If Marvel and DC had a PC Superman/Dark Phoenix crossover battle and decided Phoenix is clearly superior, then Phoenix is clearly superior and it doesn't matter what I or anyone says.

To Genesis:
I never said you're biased against Superman, initially. Later on, when you brought it up, I told you I'm not sure, perhaps a little bit. Honestly, I thought you were more pro-Phoenix than anti-Supes'. It's hard to dislike Superman, I think.

 

[BrianWilly]

^You see that swirling mass that she's holding in her hands?

That's the universe.

Galaxies, shmalaxies.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

The pre crisis Superman was nowhere near the level of the Phoenix. In a straight up fight with nothing at stake Supes would get owned so badly it's not funny. The thing that made Superman formiddable was was that he could always succeed when he truly had to, not when he wanted to, not when it was convenient to, when he absolutely had to to save lives.

 

[Ultimate_Superman]

You also forget PC Superman had the last GL ring and the sword of truth. So I think he might be able to take her.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Phoenix is a force of nature in the universe. Sorry, Supes...ain't happening.

 

[Elijya]

well, there's the idea of the characters using their full potential, and then there's the idea of the characters as they actually were used

for instance - PreCrisis Superman sometimes performed feats thAt indicated he could travel at many times the speed of light... but he didn't do it all the time

Phoenix, likewise, has been portrayed as eating suns and what not... but she didn't do it all the time. In fact, I don't recall her actually battling anyone that gave her a hard time when she was using the full phoenix force. The only reason she died in the first place was because the Jean Grey side of her commited suicide and let herself be vulnerable.

 

[Varient]

the ONLY weakness the Phoenix appears to have is time.

It doesn't operate @ superspeed, It can travel vast distances at hyperlight speeds,.. but it doesn't "use" superspeed.

It can be beat if you hit it before it can ramp up it's power level.

Canon with Phoenix in the Marvel Universe sez that the Phoenix rests at a much lower power level most of the time,.. and that it requires time to bring up its big guns.

Pre-Crisis Superman was more like a capacitor than a Battery. As long as he was within range of a Yellow Sun,... He had the power to break the time Barrier, Tow Planets, Travel Faster than light, survive ANYTHING outside of Krptonite and Magic.

He was immune to mind control and his mind could not be read unless he wanted it to be.

Even though she is flashier,... The "Portion" of the Phoenix force that was Jean Grey would get Owned by Precrisis Superman.


Now,... If you mean the ENTIRE enity comprised of literally Millions of Souls tied to it,.. The Pheonix can beat ANYTHING short of God.


I'm sure I just confused everyone who didn't read comics for the last 30 years,....

 

[Ultimate_Superman]

the ONLY weakness the Phoenix appears to have is time.

It doesn't operate @ superspeed, It can travel vast distances at hyperlight speeds,.. but it doesn't "use" superspeed.

It can be beat if you hit it before it can ramp up it's power level.

Canon with Phoenix in the Marvel Universe sez that the Phoenix rests at a much lower power level most of the time,.. and that it requires time to bring up its big guns.

Pre-Crisis Superman was more like a capacitor than a Battery. As long as he was within range of a Yellow Sun,... He had the power to break the time Barrier, Tow Planets, Travel Faster than light, survive ANYTHING outside of Krptonite and Magic.

He was immune to mind control and his mind could not be read unless he wanted it to be.

Even though she is flashier,... The "Portion" of the Phoenix force that was Jean Grey would get Owned by Precrisis Superman.


Now,... If you mean the ENTIRE enity comprised of literally Millions of Souls tied to it,.. The Pheonix can beat ANYTHING short of God.


I'm sure I just confused everyone who didn't read comics for the last 30 years,....

Which PC Superman pretty much was. Now if you really want a fair fight Superman Prime would own Pheonix in any form with out breaking a sweat.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

The pre crisis Supermans powers were switched on by yellow sun energy and were only switched off by red sun energy. He did not need the proximity of a yellow sun to maintain his powers. He also had no defense against telepathy other than a super strong will. He could be and was defeated by strong telepaths such as Grodd, The Shark and Starstriker.

 

[Genesis 1.0]

^You see that swirling mass that she's holding in her hands?

That's the universe.

Galaxies, shmalaxies.

I brought up that selfsame point in our discussion, just couldn't find a picture. Heh, but from what I can see, it seems to be split down the middle as to whether or not PC Supes could win or not. One way or the other, I've come away from this with a much wider insight to PC Superman than I had going in.

When it comes down to it, could Superman defend himself during that time period from being disassembled on a molecular level? I suppose that's what it would come down to, outside of the Phoenix transporting Supes into a region of space that has no yellow sun, which she is capable of. In that same sense, Superman would have the speed advantage, but could he do enough damage to defeat her in time?

Unless can tell me that Superman has held the universe in the palm of his hand and restarted it, I stand by my opinon, heh.

 

[mrokner]

And I stand by mine, as well

The next step is to get DC and Marvel in a room and let them bicker until one emerges with a winner.

 

[Varient]

The pre crisis Supermans powers were switched on by yellow sun energy and were only switched off by red sun energy. He did not need the proximity of a yellow sun to maintain his powers. He also had no defense against telepathy other than a super strong will. He could be and was defeated by strong telepaths such as Grodd, The Shark and Starstriker.

Disagree.

Superman under a Orange Sun would have his powers effectivly cut in half.

Under a white sun, his powers were Increased a bit.

Pre crisis has too much canon involving how fast he loses power outside of the range of a Yellow star to say that the color of the stars simply turn his power on and off.

Current Supes is how you describe for the most part,... he holds a charge in direct proportion to the amount of Energy available.

 

[Silicon Surfer]

Blue sunlight vastly increased his powers too. and granted powers to earth people that were equal to what Kryptonians gained under a yellow sun. Superman used to routinely fly between galaxies where there were no stars at all. They said that his powers functioned there because yellow suns had been burning since the beginning of the universe and thus yellow sunlight was everywhere.

 

[Guyverjay]

and Pre-Crisis SuperBOY towing galaxies around.

He's towing planets, he's not towing a galaxy

Pre cisis supes is over rated, half the feats people state happened are usually exaggerated bull****. Unsurprising enough the same goes with Superman Prime. I've seen instance of Pre crisis supes losing all his power instantly under a red sun and other times more slowly. I've seen him move planets and other time gets beaten up a King Kong rip off. Its a mess of crap

Kryptonite still fudges him up though. Phoenix could probably create a ton of the stuff