Question About The Killing Joke...

[ironman29758]

It is, metaphorically if not actually, a rape (though I suspect if it had been an actual physical rape, neither Batman nor Gordon would have been able to play by the books). It's actually interesting that the book came in for a lot of criticism for the way it objectifies Barbara yet this is one of Alan Moore's recurring themes, the ways in which women are constantly objectified by culture and society and their brutal hierarchies of power.

I've loved The Killing Joke for 20 years now, and I think there are two elements, apart from the perfection of the joke itself, that elevate it to genius. One is the way Jeannie dies in the memory section: electrocuted by a baby bottle warmer she's testing. That's just so completely absurd. It's like (of course) the punch line of a very cruel joke. The other is what happens to Barbara, because it has to be horrifying, in order for Gordon's decision to play by the books, and Batman's decision to renew his offer of help to the Joker, to be as heroic as they are. Or as insane? If this had just been a standard kidnapping plot where she's tied up in a basement somewhere, it would probably just be a good suspense thriller.

But like many comic book manifestations of the Joker, this one is fairly asexual, even in the memory sequence, where Jeannie's insistence that he's good in the sack might seem more like wishful thinking in reconstructing the memory. (I have elsewhere argued that Harley Quinn was invented for the same reason Aunt Harriet was, in response to a gay scare: after Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum, which did sexualize the Joker, someone must have decided that if he was to be sexualized, however, nastily, it had to be heterosexually.)

So, in short, no: Barbara is not physically raped. But she and her father are emotionally violated by being forced into situations of extreme vulnerability where any element of choice is removed.

now if it was the all star batman and robin Joker that would be a whole 'nother story

 

[SmileOnMyFACE]

I think it is left open for possibility. If he did rape her, it was to make her suffer, causing Gordon to suffer more, trying to push him to see his point of view. Knowing that your daughter was raped (virginity taken?) while bleeding from a paralyzing gunshot by The Joker would be pretty good leverage to make someone go insane. Personally, I think it's better implied than it would be as solid fact.

I know that Joker raping Barbara in The Killing Joke is implied in 'Patient J'. Joker was shown the photos he took of Barbara, and mentioned how the blood ruined the nice white carpet, and then there was blood from the gunshot.

 

[[A]]

Stop reading TOO MUCH into things.......................

 

[The Guard]

I wrote PATIENT J, although I thought that bit got edited out before the final product. That's not reading too much into things about the rape angle. It's definitely implied, but whether he's serious or not...that's another story. We were going more for something metaphorical. The sexual imagery was intentional, as we believed that The Joker derives what could be compared to a sexual pleasure from his actions.

 

[Hulk1968]

The Joker raping Babs?
No.
I don't belive it.
Now, him shagging Harley?
That I can agree to.

 

[Mladen]

Not rape in the penetrative sense, but I can definately imagine Joker touching her for the photos. Hell, I don't think he'd mind if either of the goons (the ones he had with him) helped themselves.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

No rape at all. I get sick of people I know saying since Joker is "the most evil guy teh ever111!" that he would commit rape. Joker is above that, he is a clown prince of crime, a comedian of death, the finest criminal mind in Gotham! Why on Earth would he stoop himself so low as to rape a poor girl? He'd find that repulsive, it was not needed and there was no joke to be found in it.

 

[Majic Walrus]

No rape at all. I get sick of people I know saying since Joker is "the most evil guy teh ever111!" that he would commit rape. Joker is above that, he is a clown prince of crime, a comedian of death, the finest criminal mind in Gotham! Why on Earth would he stoop himself so low as to rape a poor girl? He'd find that repulsive, it was not needed and there was no joke to be found in it.

What's your basis for that?

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

i never understood the rape theory, i can't remember where it was or when but there was one story where joker acts disgusted by the idea of a rapist

i always liked the idea he may be a cold blooded murdering insane bastard but there are some things even the joker finds wrong

 

[the_ultimate_evil]

i never understood the rape theory, i can't remember where it was or when but there was one story where joker acts disgusted by the idea of a rapist

i always liked the idea he may be a cold blooded murdering insane bastard but there are some things even the joker finds wrong

 

[Majic Walrus]

Just because he acted disgusted by rape doesn't mean that he wouldn't do it himself. I never saw the Joker as an elitist who has some sort of criminal principle. What might disgust him one minute might be the funniest thing in the world the next.

 

[Buttman]

i never understood the rape theory, i can't remember where it was or when but there was one story where joker acts disgusted by the idea of a rapist

And I'm sure I've read an interview with Moore in which he said it was left ambigious, but I've read basically every interview that man has ever done so finding it would be near impossible.

there are some things even the joker finds wrong

I disagree.

 

[agentzelda]

DC wouldn't allow Grant Morrison to have the Joker in full-on drag in Arkham Asylum, so I doubt very much they would have allowed explicit implication of rape in TKJ. (And I return to my theory that the subsequent invention of Harley Quinn, weird as the relationship has been, was at least in part an attempt to conventionalize the Joker's sexuality.)

That said, when I first read TKJ 20 years ago (and no, I wasn't a child then though of course I was YOUNG), I honestly didn't know exactly what went on after the comic cut away from the home invasion scene. From what I know of Moore and his passionate concern for the way women are objectified by society, I wouldn't be surprised he wanted the implication at least to be there, but after numerous rereadings, I honestly cannot see short of actual sainthood how Batman and Gordon could then act by the books, and as generously as Batman does. (No, I don't buy the theory that at the end when the scenes move into hard closeup on the rain that Batman kills the Joker: I think the ending is exactly what it seems to be, Batman sees the point of the joke and can't help laughing, the Joker by this point is hysterical, you see the yellow lights and the sound effect of the siren of the approaching police backup, and the Joker is returned to Arkham, and presumably moved to a more secure area.)

I am intrigued by how anxious so many readers are to interpret the scene as rape. I know if I felt even nearly certain that's what went on I might admire the story but I wouldn't love it, not unless it was given full-on Moore treatment (this is really in a lot of ways Brian Bolland's enterprise and Moore has distanced himself from it, implying an unfinished, inconsequential narrative).

 

[TruerToTheCore]

Mass murder, disfigurement, mayhem...yes.. but for GOD'S SAKE... NO RAPE!

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i'm not sure really, maybe he was just trying to give Gordon the impression he raped his daughter. i agree with people saying Joker wouldn't rape someone for sexual pleasure, but i could imagen the Joker raping someone just for the fun of it, maybe gaining a sick kind of pleasure from their pain and torment.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

What's your basis for that?

Only 70 years of comic history. Heck, even when he bashes Jason Todd to death he makes a small remark about "a bit too much blood". Throughout his history, Joker has always been egotistical, considering himself far above others, his only equal Batman. He kills people a lot, but for the most part there is always a point. Even more so, there is always a joke. And the Joker doesn't find just plain evil funny or else he wouldn't have the dapper clown persona, no, he relishes the joke, whether r not you get it. The joke in The Killing joke was that greatest of ironies, Gotham's hero cop gone nuts, and he did so by shooting his daughter in front of him and then making him relive the memories twice as painful. No rape was needed nor would Joker conform to that, as I said he considers himself above your average Rapist, not to mention he considers himself a criminal elite. Not to mention again the Barbara nor any other person imply this in any other comic.

No rape. Joker may be evil, but he has standards, which is what makes him such a great villain.

 

[Quinzel]

Some people say that Jason's green Robin undies were on backwards in a scene where Batman was holding his dead body.

I'm not sure when it'd supposed to have taken place though.

Joker's not gay.

I should know. lol.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Only 70 years of comic history. Heck, even when he bashes Jason Todd to death he makes a small remark about "a bit too much blood". Throughout his history, Joker has always been egotistical, considering himself far above others, his only equal Batman. He kills people a lot, but for the most part there is always a point. Even more so, there is always a joke. And the Joker doesn't find just plain evil funny or else he wouldn't have the dapper clown persona, no, he relishes the joke, whether r not you get it. The joke in The Killing joke was that greatest of ironies, Gotham's hero cop gone nuts, and he did so by shooting his daughter in front of him and then making him relive the memories twice as painful. No rape was needed nor would Joker conform to that, as I said he considers himself above your average Rapist, not to mention he considers himself a criminal elite. Not to mention again the Barbara nor any other person imply this in any other comic.

No rape. Joker may be evil, but he has standards, which is what makes him such a great villain.

When he starts taking Barbara's clothes off she asked him what he's doing and he says, "Proving a point."

If undressing Gordon's daughter proves a point I don't see why it's such a leap to assume that rape will help further that point. I don't think he was doing it because it was plain evil and therefore funny. The joke was in the grand scheme which doesn't contradict a possible rape.

The Joker also doesn't really have much in the way of limits or standards. I've seen him murder hospitals of little kids and kill women and men in the dozens or hundreds. I don't think someone who's capable of that is beyond rape, especially to prove a point.

Also, the Joker is crazy and doesn't need to have a reason for doing something.

 

[ronny]

Maybe he didn't rape her but he did undress her, leer over her naked body and use that same body as a weapon against her father. All for no reason. He just felt like it on that particular day.

 

[The Joker]

Maybe he didn't rape her but he did undress her, leer over her naked body and use that same body as a weapon against her father. All for no reason. He just felt like it on that particular day.

It wasn't for no reason. It was to prove a point: That everyone else is just one bad day away from the way he is.

 

[ronny]

It wasn't for no reason. It was to prove a point: That everyone else is just one bad day away from the way he is.

The point he'll quickly abandon when some other bright idea pops into his head. He's so unreliable that you cannot pin him down to one motive or another. But I will admit that in The Killing Joker we saw him at his most honest. There was genuine feeling, not the heightened reactions he usually portrays.
Probably why it's such a damn good story.

 

[gqxsensazn]

Is The Killing Joke considered a canon story? Is this generally accepted as the Joker origin?

 

[Drz]

Is The Killing Joke considered a canon story? Is this generally accepted as the Joker origin?

The chemical bath is, but even in Killing Joke the story narrator is Joker so... you wanna believe in him? =P

 

[Punchinello]

While it wasn't rape, it would still be considered sexual assault/battery in the courts. FWIW.

I've read in magazine editorials and the like, that Moore wrote it as such that the reader was supposed to imagine 'whatever came to mind', and it WAS of a sexual nature; but completely up to the reader on what the Joker did. But then again, in other magazine reviews of this comic, they stated that it was only photographs. I think the other reviews/editors/analyzing is more true, because it's Moore, after all =D

 

[Rasputin911]

people want to be able to like the Joker, which is why they get so offended at the "rape" accusation. Raping a girl would make him unlikeable.

These ppl forget that Joker is a cruel sadist, and a violent psychopath. Someone whose done the things he's done would not be repulsed by rape. His mission in TKJ was to drive Gordon insane, and if rape was necessary to do so, he would do it in a heartbeat.

But I think the best argument one could offer is that the Joker would find rape too conventional, and would search for more creative ways to humiliate/torture Barbara.