Riddler's Revenge-Talkback and discussion

November Rain

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All I can say is wow, what an episode....Robin was truelly awesome and i glad they left batgirl out, Robin is such a better ally, there was growth there for him, major growth. Also some growth for the riddler...

there were times when i thought he was actually going to carry out his revenge

Also i think the 'Hiding in a crate' was a throw back to Tas' Riddler's reform when bats hid in a safe, good work, I liked it.

Great ep...

my only gripe was that they kept the square chin design for bats when they did a flashback, i wished they had gone back to the pointy to show youth. This just shows that they didnt change the chin because they wanted to age him, rather they changed it because they weren't happy with the original design, bit of a shame because it would have been more believeable if it was the former reason.

here are the links

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

ps, just realised bats was exceptionally cold towards the riddler in this ep, both physically and mentally
 
Here's my review as I don't have to do it on saturday.

Riddler's Revenge

PLOT:
Stuck at the bottom of the ocean with Riddler and no hope of escape, Batman learns he may have played an important role in the creation of this dreaded foe and helps solve a long lingering mystery.

REVIEW:
At the time fo this review, we were four days away from this episode airing on The CW. Thanks to Youtube, I was able to watch it before hand. This was not new, this was the second time. The first was Artifacts. So to begin the introduction, out of all the upcoming episode, I wasn't really there on the excitement for this episode. Sure I wanted to see how The Riddler's origin was for the TB universe compared to the others I've seen from Batman: The Animated Series, Batman Forever and such. But unlike the DKR Artifacts or the up incoming season finale, this episode was a "okay, its gonna come and I'm gonna sit and watch" kind of episode.

The storyline went like this: it starts out where the Riddler is getting his revenge (like the title) on businessman Chuck Gorman on his cargo ship. Batman arrives and a fight happens, Gorman manages to escape but in a way that makes him a villian of sorts, he uses Riddler's cane to destroyt he cargo ship with Batman on it. Batman throws himself and Riddler into a cargo container as the ship explodes. Batman activates Bat-Wave to contact Dick, but since this happens in daylight, he is still at school but tries his best to get out on excuses, which doesn't work for he has used them alot for getting out. But he manages to get out by throwing up some lickerish soup his classmate made. Inside the container, Riddler's begins his story on how he came to be...

We learn from this episode how Edward Nigma came to be. And it invovles Gorman. It starts when he is a kid unlike starting when he is an adult. As we can see from the action his father took, it takes a point to say that in alot of cases, villians don't become what they are because they want to, its something that happens to them that makes them what they are. For Edward, at a boy, the first was trauma. He always made puzzles and always wanted to crack them, that was his life. Normally, when a father would like his son to do other things, he would ask or even pled. But Edward's father took a baseball and threw it at Edward's puzzle. If he did that, then it makes you think he did other things as well during Edward's childhood. The main point of the flashback, and the entire story, happens when he is an adult where his project was a device that harnessed brain waves to make people absorb information quicker (sounds like Batman Forever, doesn't it?).

But Gorman is the one is led him become the Riddler. He sabotage his invention and Edward become ruined. Gorman is what you imagined him to be, even from my review here, a greedy businessman. Who won't stop to get what he wants, even if it meant ruining others and putting blames on them to get it. I'd be honest, after I knew more about this guy, I really wanted Riddler to get him. But there was one twist......wait, I'll leave that alone. In Batman fashion, Batman has to be involved with his villians' origins as Riddler's first attempt at Gorman was thwarted by Batman. But at least Batman knew what Edward Nigma was and that he wasn't a villian, he was something more. So the origin happened to be good. Although since we were going back to Batman pre-season one, maybe along with the first batmobile that he might've had the original chin as well.

One of the things that might answer some people's questions about Robin was him at school. Or does he have a life OUTSIDE being Batman's sidekick. Here, he see he does. We see him at school, one of his classmates, and one of his teachers. As we can see, Dick does have a life outside Wayne Manor. Plus, we see that he has made excuses to get himself out of school and into Robin. He has used alot and is "down at the barrel". But while it could be said, or hinted, that he might have left school to be Robin for fun reasons, Batman was calling him and there was no mistake, he HAD to go. So at least we knew.

Overall, this happened to be another good episode. One of the things I liked about the Riddler in both TB and BTAS were the riddles. And I don't know how to explain but it's fun, even though I don't try to solve them myself. Many will agree that episode was one of the best episodes of the season. Good pacing, Robert Englund did an amazing job as Riddler, and the plot twist (that I wil not mentioned) was something I wasn't expecting. Again, another good one.

RATING: 8/10
 
i agree it was a good episode especially the background of the riddler parts
 
Yeah, I like it when they humanize the villains so that they're not just being evil for the hell of it. Rids is one of my favorites and I love the whole Marylin Manson look.
 
Hands down, best season of THE BATMAN, and that'd still be true if the last four episodes absolutely blew. After all, we have a Joker episode airing next week, and the Joker's had his share of clunkers on THE BATMAN. Still, 9 episodes in and not one abysmal episode is a peak for this show. Even Season 2, considered by many to be the show's best until now, had a few clunkers. The turnaround is amazing. It can't all be attributed to Robin alone; perhaps now that the show is a hit, the network is backing off on the writers a bit? After all, they made THE BATMAN vs. DRACULA without such hassling and did it well. This episode sees the best villian from Season 2, Robert "Freddy" Englund's Riddler return, as well as has Brooke Shields as his past galpal, Julie.

A while ago, one of the banes of the show's existance is their villians had little motivation. This season, though, has become more cerebral as we have gotten villians who have had full motivations and origins known. They didn't HAVE to go back and do an origin for Riddler, but they did, and the villian is stronger for it. Incidentally, THE BATMAN has had three episodes where Riddler was either THE villian or had a main role, which is about as many as B:TAS had. Stan Berkowitz wrote this episode, and as the guy has written for B:TAS, BATMAN BEYOND, JLU, and the 90's SPIDER-MAN, you know good things are coming.

The plot is relatively simple; the Riddler has captured the cargo ship of Mr. Gorman and has rigged it to explode, while tormenting him with riddles; he also has two burlier looking henchmen who have simple yet COOL costumes (green bodysuits, ?-marks on the chest, imagine Foot Ninja designed by Riddler). Batman arrives to intervene and Gorman is able to escape, but not before using Riddler's cane to blow up the rig, sinking his goods but also hoping to be rid of the villian once and for all. This leads to Batman & Riddler stuck in a cargo hold at the bottom of the ocean, with a limited air supply, pinned under debris and seemingly no way out. Batman calls for Robin on the Batwave, but alas the signal goes dead when they sink too deep, and Dick Grayson just can't seem to get out of Home Ec so easily today.

Believing this is the end, Riddler recounts his origins and how Batman played a role in them. Now, some people have knocked the Manson design for Riddler here, but I'll repeat myself; Englund makes it work. I doubt it was designed with that actor in mind, as these things are usually done in pre-production before casting, but it's a perfect fit. I'd never have imagined that Englund could do a good Riddler, but he's a far better Riddler than he was at Felix Faust in JLU (Faust being a rather generic evil mage).

The recent Batman cartoons have done well with Riddler's origin, usually casting him as a genius out for revenge against business men who don't appreciate him, at least that was the premise behind "IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY AREN'T YOU RICH?" from B:TAS (which had a great origin, actor, and design for Riddler even if it relied on a rather kiddie video game plot). This episode has much the same origin for Riddler, as Edward Nigma was a scientist along with Julie working on a device to boost brainpower, perhaps a nod to BATMAN FOREVER where Nigma worked for WayneTech doing much the same thing. They also alluded to a verbally and possibly physically abusive father who wanted his son to be a jock, not a nerd. Immediately hostile towards Gorman, who he believes will simply profit from his genius and toss him away, Edward seeks to make his name on his own. However, at a demonstration for his device, he all but lobotomizes someone frying their brain, and his rep was never the same. Fired and his relationship with Julie ended, Riddler became convinced that Gorman sabutaged his work, and so thus was out for revenge.

Having trapped Gorman in the past in his home with riddle themed traps (his "fetish" if you will), Batman happened to intervene and solved the riddles, leading to Nigma's defeat. Inspired by his new adversary, he donned a more "theatrical" theme. This flashback has it's downsides; Batman bares his SEASON 5 design, and not his past ones with the smaller chin. It also plays awkwardly with his debut in Season 2, as Batman surely should have recalled a riddle-themed trapmaster, especially since the flashback presumably occurs before Season 1, when Batman was mostly fighting gangsters.

As with some past episodes, Riddler has some smart riddles and some solid lines, and I liked how he now uses razor-tipped Question marked "scythes" as weapons; I always felt it unfair that Joker & Penguin could be karate experts here, but Riddler was still mostly feeble and helpless in a fight. In this episode he actually proved to be a challenge to Batman in terms of fistcuffs, which isn't bad; maybe he picked up a few moves since Season 2's finale. Batman inspires Riddler to help him escape when he deduces logically that it was Julie, not Gorman, who sabutaged his work as Gorman lacked the know-how, a conclusion not even the brainiac Riddler could have figured because emotions got in the way (he loved her). Given a new vengence motive, Riddler helps them escape but then suckerpunches Batman so he can go after Julie; by now Robin has arrived (after literally making himself vomit to get out of class, a cute little scene).

The ending comes by quickly; Riddler and his goons attempt to kill Julie (yes, kill her by frying her brain, no immobilizing cards here folks!), when Batman & Robin come to the rescue, but leave her for the police as well. Having some sympathy for Nigma's lot in life, Batman departs with his own riddle; "When is a villian not a villian?" Considering this is the first incarnation of the Riddler who one could claim is sort of creepy, this episode did well to make him sympathetic. The better Batman episodes do that, rather than just have him stop generic plots, so this one is for the books.

The Timmverse never had enough of Riddler and as THE BATMAN is all but guarenteed a Season 5, hopefully we see more of him later on. An interesting modern take that could allow THE BATMAN to be original would be to incorporate Paul Dini's subplot from his DETECTIVE COMICS run, in which Riddler uses his fame to become a legally sanctioned P.I. who sometimes is a rival of Batman. I kind of doubt that, though.

Robin essentially just has a cameo role, but unlike Batgirl all his scenes are well written; perhaps the writers just can't get into Batgirl without making her annoying. Riddler is also one of the few villians who can claim to be in multiple episodes and have all of them be good (this episode was easily better than "WHAT IS REALITY?" in some ways).

This season is on a roll and THE BATMAN has suddenly emerged as the best comic cartoon on TV, and to think a year ago it was almost sinking fast. Holy comeback, Batman. :cool:
 
Hey dread. Becoming the best comic cartoon on tv isn't that hard. When there isn't that many on anymore. haha.
 
Hey dread. Becoming the best comic cartoon on tv isn't that hard. When there isn't that many on anymore. haha.

There's LEGION OF SUPERHEROES and TMNT: FAST FORWARD. I also continue to count FANTASTIC FOUR, even though it hasn't aired since 2006.
 
I thought the episode was really good. Riddler looked a bit like Snape...
 
Wow, that was a very cool episode !
The background story of the Riddler was neat.
Personally, this is how I see Batman's villains : monsters who suffer of their condition, as the catwoman of Burton was, as the penguin of Tim Burton was, you know, when a "normal" person is really mean and crual and when the Bat-villain is a monster.
I find "the batman" better and better. I dislike this version of the Riddler, yet I can truely appreciate what they've done in this episode.
I liked it a lot. :up:
 

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