The Dark Knight Rises Riddle Me This: The Riddler Characterization Thread

[Rodrigo90]

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[ALittlePush]

I think Riddler should be a reporter for the Gotham Times. It is his job to ask questions. Riddler is always looking for a great news story and would even resort to criminal tactics to create one if necessary. He wants to be known as the best reporter in Gotham.

As articles regarding the Batman are the most read in Gotham, Riddler decides that he is going to write the most popular article in Gotham by finding the answer to the most asked question in Gotham: Why Batman turned from a vigilante protector to a murderer.

 

[EdwardNygma]

 

[Rodrigo90]

I would like Riddler to stay true to the source of material,but mix it up to fit TDKs plot.

Im having Edward start out as an unknown criminal,like in D.C. #140. He has an obsession with puzzles,but its never looked into yet. Edward has a strange obsession into being regarded as 'Gothams Greatest Criminal',believing his superior intellect will gain him that title.
He starts out by kidnapping Mayor Garcia. But the clue he left behind is too easy,Gordon and the police race over to an abandoned warehouse at the docks. Batman secretly enters also,he and Gordon save an unconscious Garcia from being drowned. But Edward sees it all and is spotted. Batman dashes after him,but Edward accidentally sets off the C4 he planted...He appears to have been killed in the blast.

He has survived however,by leaping into the water. Edward has now gained an obsession with Batman. He wonders at his failure,and decides he will do what the criminals and authorities can not...Defeat Batman.

 

[Rodrigo90]

He makes contact with FBI Agent Harvey Bullock, informs him of Gordons deceit,and lies about knowing Batmans identity. Edward makes him an offer. He tells Bullock that if he can gain him access to whatever he needs,he will catch Batman and let Bullock take the credit. Edward claims that as soon as the week ends(the deadline),Bullock can even arrest him as reassurance.

Edward will defeat and get his revenge on Batman,and further aid Bullock by solving the mystery of Gordons deception.

With Bullock secretly working with him,Edward decides he needs to become something more complex and elemental,a pure enigma. He takes his inspiration from his favourite hobby...puzzles and challenges. He then takes his favourite suit and paints question marks on it,wearing a mask. He believes his new look and favourite form of challenge should inspire the name...Riddler.

 

[rfU]

He makes contact with FBI Agent Harvey Bullock, informs him of Gordons deceit,and lies about knowing Batmans identity. Edward makes him an offer. He tells Bullock that if he can gain him access to whatever he needs,he will catch Batman and let Bullock take the credit. Edward claims that as soon as the week ends(the deadline),Bullock can even arrest him as reassurance.

Edward will defeat and get his revenge on Batman,and further aid Bullock by solving the mystery of Gordons deception.

With Bullock secretly working with him,Edward decides he needs to become something more complex and elemental,a pure enigma. He takes his inspiration from his favourite hobby...puzzles and challenges. He then takes his favourite suit and paints question marks on it,wearing a mask. He believes his new look and favourite form of challenge should inspire the name...Riddler.

I like this better than mine actually. But why does Bullock have to be FBI? I'd rather keep FBI out of this one. So no two-face? You throw Black Mask into the mix at some point don't you? Why the Black Mask? I've never understood why he keeps coming, he's one of Batman's least known supervillains and doesn't come off as that interesting.

 

[rfU]

He makes contact with FBI Agent Harvey Bullock, informs him of Gordons deceit,and lies about knowing Batmans identity. Edward makes him an offer. He tells Bullock that if he can gain him access to whatever he needs,he will catch Batman and let Bullock take the credit. Edward claims that as soon as the week ends(the deadline),Bullock can even arrest him as reassurance.

Edward will defeat and get his revenge on Batman,and further aid Bullock by solving the mystery of Gordons deception.

With Bullock secretly working with him,Edward decides he needs to become something more complex and elemental,a pure enigma. He takes his inspiration from his favourite hobby...puzzles and challenges. He then takes his favourite suit and paints question marks on it,wearing a mask. He believes his new look and favourite form of challenge should inspire the name...Riddler.

I like this better than mine actually. But why does Bullock have to be FBI? I'd rather keep FBI out of this one. So no two-face? You throw Black Mask into the mix at some point don't you? Why the Black Mask? I've never understood why he keeps coming, he's one of Batman's least known supervillains and doesn't come off as that interesting.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Thanks rfU.

I wanted to give Bullock a good reason for an appearance,something that was different,but familiar. He is also a good role for the theme of obsession. Bullock obsesses over catching Batman,and Riddler is obsessed with Batman. But another theme is redemption,so Bullock makes ammends for his mistakes.

Harvey does return,but its a build up. His obsession was with chance,then it turns to a second chance (2). So he redeems himself (not in a good way mind),by killing corrupt police officers.

Black Mask is basically an evil version of Bruce Wayne. Both born into wealthy and successful families,but while Bruce's parents loved him, Roman's parents did not love him. Roman hated his parents so much that he killed them,and turned a life of crime to help himself cope,while Bruce turned to crimefighting for him to cope. Its got nice ironic appeal to it.

 

[Mister H.]

There's a lot to work with in this angle. I love it. Every one of the bat villains finds their character by perfectly exemplifying the height of a certain type of pathology that batman himself needs to resist in his own mind.

Ras was an eye for an eye vigilante. Crane abused and enjoyed his power to instill fear in others. Harveys dual life fractured and perverted his mind. Joker is a dark mirror to the ridiculousness of Batman's costumed theatrics.

Riddler could easily distinguish himself from all these villains with a philosophy of "the dumb must die". Batman would be torn since he is hated and hunted in the third movie by, essentially, the dumb people of gotham. The very people he is trying to defend. Riddler would be trapping swarms of civilians in situations where only their intelligence will let them live. Bats would have to defend the ignorant on principle. This could escalate and escalate escalate, bringing up a ton of questions bats will need to take a hard look at.

What are the answers to all these riddles that I have to solve to keep these people from dying? And why am I even doing this in the first place?

That is the ultimate riddle. Bats will wonder, 'Is what I'm doing as batman the right thing to do?" This has been the biggest weight on his mind throughout both films so far. In the process of taking on the riddler, he will finally cement in his mind why he does what he does. This will be the "completion of the story" Nolan mentioned in the LA times. Batman will finally find the answer to the question that has plagued him from the beginning: is Batman right for Gotham? How fitting that the enemy himself is the embodiment of ambiguity that batman needs to defeat.

So many questions!

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Good post, and I agree very much with the thoughts that I bolded. The Riddler should be a projection of Batman's tireless questioning of not only his own mission, but also of his methods.

But I believe his unwillingness to kill should also be mirrored by the Riddler, so I'm not a fan of putting civilians at risk to toy with Batman. I think their battle should be relatively unknown to the public, and be a very personal one.

This is why I really like a kind of synthesis of your thoughts here and Rodrigo90's above, in regards to the Riddler being an accomplice to someone inside GPD-- Bullock in his example. If the idea is for Riddler to reflect Batman's inner turmoil and doubt, then I see no reason to involve those not directly affected by the truth about Batman's identity and the final days of Harvey Dent's life. A Riddler working through connections to the Dent/Gordon/Batman triumverate in order to piece together the truth about Batman and the Dent cover-up, then offering up clues about his findings sporadically to the media would make for a great psychological battle to complement the more phsycial threats of bounty hunters or hitmen like Bane, Deadshot, or Killer Croc.

Great thoughts from both breyfogle and Rogrigo90!

 

[regwec]

Rodrigo certainly has a lot of thoughts.

 

[Rodrigo90]

delete

 

[The Demon's Head]

Bumping this this thread, in order to adress something that has been on my mind for a while. As a huge fan of BTAS, I can't believe that most people see The Riddler as a pathetic second stringer. I think he has a lot of potential as a villain, he just hasn't been treated properly in the source material for the past 20 years or so. Can the movie make him a credible threat, and if so, how would you do it without turning him into a Private Detective, or a Saw rip- off?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Bumping this this thread, in order to adress something that has been on my mind for a while. As a huge fan of BTAS, I can't believe that most people see The Riddler as a pathetic second stringer. I think he has a lot of potential as a villain, he just hasn't been treated properly in the source material for the past 20 years or so. Can the movie make him a credible threat, and if so, how would you do it without turning him into a Private Detective, or a Saw rip- off?

Well,IMO. Making him close to the original version as you possibly can. Riddler from the 40's was a true threat in his own right. Incorporate his sadism and evilness from the 70's. That is a golden combination.

 

[The Demon's Head]

Well,IMO. Making him close to the original version as you possibly can. Riddler from the 40's was a true threat in his own right. Incorporate his sadism and evilness from the 70's. That is a golden combination.

What did he do in the 70's?

 

[Ryan]

My biggest issue is on the look of the Riddler. The colour green has to be a part of his outfit somehow, much like purple was in the Joker's costume. However a suit or bodysuit covered in question marks, the domino mask, bowler hat or riddler cane...which all have been hallmarks of the character over the years, just seem to be hard to envision in the Nolan films. I still believe that a unique way to feature the Riddler would be to not feature him, but instead showcase the riddles...like John Doe in Se7en or how they used the Riddler in the Arkham Asylum game. Just an idea.

 

[Rodrigo90]

What did he do in the 70's?

He started to use guns to kill people if they didnt answer his riddles correctly. Also he delibrately lodged something in a baby's throat and tossed it to Batman,and he had to perform surgery right on the spot to save the baby's life.

 

[ronny]

He started to use guns to kill people if they didnt answer his riddles correctly. Also he delibrately lodged something in a baby's throat and tossed it to Batman,and he had to perform surgery right on the spot to save the baby's life.

And then they ****ed it up by saying that a demon had possessed him during the events of the story

I've heard of a good story where he runs an underground game in which he reveals the darkest secrets of various celebrities, forcing some of them to kill themselves out of shame. That's pretty brutal, and just the kind of scheme a cowardly runt would pull off. He's a guy who doesn't have the balls to get his hands dirty. Because in a stand-alone fight, most people would kick his head in.

 

[Rodrigo90]

And then they ****ed it up by saying that a demon had possessed him during the events of the story

Oh God.

 

[lidiev]

None for you, but I do like the idea of The Riddler as some type of journalist, or even freelance. It makes sense that journalist are always after the truth(discounting Gossips news or anything like that.)
For The Riddler to kill people or put them in jigsaw situations sounds like a bad idea, it would bring him closer to being The Joker.
I agree with Mister H, that the battle between The Riddler and Batman should be more personal, which will add more to the psychological side of Batman covering up Harvey's actions by putting the blame on himself.

 

[Ryan]

I'd like the Riddler to just be the Riddler, much like the Joker was just the Joker. I honestly don't want to see him as an FBI, former cop, journalist or anything along those lines. I haven't really seen in the Nolan films alot of background history of the characters (except I suppose a bit for Ras). The first 2 films seemed to focus on the baddies trying to destroy Gotham, or battling for the soul of Gotham. Perhaps the 'Riddler will continue this tradition or maybe he'll just zero in on the Batman right off the bat (pun intended). Somehow or some way, the third movie I believe will have Batman's redemption made at the expense the Riddler

 

[GL1]

I'd like the Riddler to just be the Riddler, much like the Joker was just the Joker. I honestly don't want to see him as an FBI, former cop, journalist or anything along those lines. I haven't really seen in the Nolan films alot of background history of the characters (except I suppose a bit for Ras). The first 2 films seemed to focus on the baddies trying to destroy Gotham, or battling for the soul of Gotham. Perhaps the 'Riddler will continue this tradition or maybe he'll just zero in on the Batman right off the bat (pun intended). Somehow or some way, the third movie I believe will have Batman's redemption made at the expense the Riddler

Both movies had a villain that was 'just a villain' (Joker, Scarecrow) and a villain where they went deep (20+ minutes of screen time) into their history, motivations and relationship with Bruce (Ra's, Two-Face)... If Riddler is the 'just a villain' then the other villain will not be, and lets face it, there's no reason for Riddler to have a relationship with Bruce.

There's a lot to work with in this angle. I love it. Every one of the bat villains finds their character by perfectly exemplifying the height of a certain type of pathology that batman himself needs to resist in his own mind.

Ras was an eye for an eye vigilante. Crane abused and enjoyed his power to instill fear in others. Harveys dual life fractured and perverted his mind. Joker is a dark mirror to the ridiculousness of Batman's costumed theatrics.

Riddler could easily distinguish himself from all these villains with a philosophy of "the dumb must die". Batman would be torn since he is hated and hunted in the third movie by, essentially, the dumb people of gotham. The very people he is trying to defend. Riddler would be trapping swarms of civilians in situations where only their intelligence will let them live. Bats would have to defend the ignorant on principle. This could escalate and escalate escalate, bringing up a ton of questions bats will need to take a hard look at.

What are the answers to all these riddles that I have to solve to keep these people from dying? And why am I even doing this in the first place?

That is the ultimate riddle. Bats will wonder, 'Is what I'm doing as batman the right thing to do?" This has been the biggest weight on his mind throughout both films so far. In the process of taking on the riddler, he will finally cement in his mind why he does what he does. This will be the "completion of the story" Nolan mentioned in the LA times. Batman will finally find the answer to the question that has plagued him from the beginning: is Batman right for Gotham? How fitting that the enemy himself is the embodiment of ambiguity that batman needs to defeat.

So many questions!

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This IS awesome. A great way to finish up the body, soul and mind aspect of this trilogy. It's more than just Is Batman right, but he has to ask himself, are the other people wrong, and do they deserve to die for being wrong? Which even comes back around to criminals, and that's the imbalance. Where do you draw the line of justice, if you don't draw it at lawbreakers (which Batman obviously doesn't)... Riddler takes it to the logical extreme of survival of the fittest, and by facing him, batman has to justify his 'charity' to all the dumb masses that are too dumb to live, sadly, and easily swayed. A great intellectual argument.

I'd like to see Riddler's traps move beyond the idea of trapping people in rooms, to be a bit more epic. This isn't a great example, but something like delivering a red and blue pill to each home.

If Riddler is the 'just a villain' villain, then his backstory should be pretty simple, and he should just storm onto the scene as a hacker turned domestic terrorist, attracted to the idea of Batman, and the deconstruction of it. Perhaps he shuts down the FBI (not the GCPD) investigation on Batman personally and tells them 'I'll take it from here.' Even though he's #1 on their most wanted list. Perhaps that's part of his game, Riddler holds the heat off of Batman as long as Bats 'plays the game.' Let him have the clock-king-sherlock-holmes like mind while Batman is just... a good detective, not noticing anything the audience isn't capable of noticing as well.