Schumacher: "Kilmer Is the Best Batman"

[Hobgoblin]

http://www.avclub.com/articles/val-kilmer-was-the-best-batman-says-guy-who-had-va,63305/

by Sean O'Neal October 12, 2011

Ask any fan about their favorite person to don the cowl and play Batman, and “Val Kilmer” is likely to rank somewhere between “that guy who got body-slammed on the Las Vegas strip” and “George Clooney.” Ask director Joel Schumacher—as one IFC reporter did during a Trespass press conference—and you’ll get a not entirely unsurprising response: “For me, Val Kilmer was the best Batman,” Schumacher replied, having conducted a scientific poll of Joel Schumachers and received a 100-percent positive rating for his own Batman Forever, with a margin of error of +/- one Joel Schumacher. Somewhat redundantly pressed to explain his position, Schumacher continued, “I thought he looked great in the costume, and I thought he brought a depth to the role. I thought the relationship between Val and Nicole Kidman was very sexy.”

Of course, no one is arguing Schumacher’s “sexy” defining of Kilmer and Kidman’s fire-starting chemistry—in that it was essentially two sticks rubbing together—given that Schumacher’s efforts to sex up Batman guaranteed that no story about him would ever be written that didn’t spur an involuntary, Tourette’s-like bark of “bat-nipples!” But as Entertainment Weekly notes, it’s something of a reversal of opinion for Schumacher, considering he and Kilmer reportedly got into a scuffle on set and were repeatedly at odds, leading to Kilmer leaving the franchise, and Schumacher giving postmortem interviews where he accused Kilmer of being “the most psychologically troubled human being I’ve ever worked with.” Of course, this could all be a matter of perspective, seeing as Schumacher is now forced to “take full responsibility” for the much, much worse follow-up, Batman & Robin, and also seeing as since then he’s made two movies with Nicolas Cage. Had he gotten his wish to have Cage play the Scarecrow in his third, aborted Batman film, he may have reached this conclusion a lot sooner.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

No surprise. Burton says Keaton's the best and Nolan says Bale's the best. All because those actors were under their direction. It's not a hard decision for Schumacher to make. Pick the Batman from the more favorable movie or the Batman from "one of the worst movies of all time."

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Kilmer may have been a better Batman (Schumacher-verse), but I think Clooney was the better Bruce Wayne.

 

[The Morningstar]

Batman Forever is no where near being one of the worst movies off all time. What an absurd statement.

Anyway, yea, Kilmer did have the potential to be the best Wayne/Batman. There was flashes of greatness in Forever. Just no where near enough. Kilmer was let down by the script and the director.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Funny cause in Variety he said "Michael was terrific, and Val was terrific, but I think George is the best Batman of all. He has brought a humanity to the piece that is fresh, and we've stepped away from a more brooding, self-centered Batman to a more mature, accessible Batman"

 

[jonathancrane]

Batman Forever is no where near being one of the worst movies off all time. What an absurd statement.

Anyway, yea, Kilmer did have the potential to be the best Wayne/Batman. There was flashes of greatness in Forever. Just no where near enough. Kilmer was let down by the script and the director.

[YT]I3HwRnU4ryM[/YT]

Well said. Scenes such as this one show the one of the aforementioned flashes of greatness.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

Batman Forever is no where near being one of the worst movies off all time. What an absurd statement.

It's not a hard decision for Schumacher to make. Pick the Batman from the more favorable movie or the Batman from "one of the worst movies of all time."

I was saying he chose Kilmer over Clooney only because Batman Forever isn't as bad as Batman and Robin. Either way, they both sucked as Batman.

 

[Ponyboy]

Kilmer may have been a better Batman (Schumacher-verse), but I think Clooney was the better Bruce Wayne.

Clooney was just terrible all around. His bobble head thing is just one strike. If you need further proof, just skip to the scene where Gossip Gerty asks Wayne when he's gonna get married.

 

[Fake Hero]

It's hard to really separate the actors performances from the poor scripts and visual design of the Schumacher universe for me to decide which of Clooney or Kilmer were better.

Forever was a better movie, so I tend to lean towards Kilmer, but I don't think any of them really pull the character off right.

Bale probably does it best, but he suffers from poor story telling too.

 

[StarLord]

[YT]I3HwRnU4ryM[/YT]

Well said. Scenes such as this one show the one of the aforementioned flashes of greatness.

That started off great before the giant bat came into it. Shame.

 

[ALP]

George Clooney is the ONLY Batman/Bruce Wayne I can't stand at all. The rest have all been decent at the least. He was just awful

 

[uniqueweasel]

I think Kilmer was just ok, he did what he could with the given script. Like the above post says, he was no where near as bad as Clooney ~shudders~

 

[Spoonman]

I liked Kilmer as Batman / Bruce Wayne. I wouldn't say he was the best, but as a physical representation of Wayne he is my favourite from all of the actors wh have played the role so far.

 

[The Joker]

I liked Kilmer. He had some good scenes, most of them as Bruce Wayne.

 

[nogap87]

Kilmer is my favorite. He would have been perfect if he had Keaton's eyebrows and Bale's BB physique.

 

[bullets]

I was upset at the time about Keaton not returning but Kilmer did a good job with the role.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Funny cause in Variety he said "Michael was terrific, and Val was terrific, but I think George is the best Batman of all. He has brought a humanity to the piece that is fresh, and we've stepped away from a more brooding, self-centered Batman to a more mature, accessible Batman"

Bob Kane flip flopped himself a lot too, before Batman and Robin he said Clooney was the best. It's all in selling the film. Keaton in B89, and Bale in BEGINS and TDK are the epitome of Batman on screen. Different takes on the character, Keaton's is the 1939's urban spectre, boogeyman, and Bale's is the late 80's thru 2000's rage fueled, demon saint monster Batman. But both work for their respective generations.

 

[The Morningstar]

See i think Kilmer's Wayne's argument with O'Donnell's Grayson in the Bat-Cave about what revenge does to a person is the best Bruce Wayne moment in all the movies. Also his disagreement with Nygma when he presents his "brain-wave" tech. And his confrontation with the Riddler at the end was awesome.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

And his confrontation with the Riddler at the end was awesome.

The one where he stands wooden, and repeats the most obvious things to Riddler? "And now you have developed a device that reads men's minds !!!" ... oh really Obvious Knight?

Kilmer gave one of the most wooden, boring performances in the entire series.

Literally no acting at all. Blank emotionless stare, all movie ... either as Bruce Wayne or Batman. No creature esque, Bat like physical mannerisms, just stands there with arms at side. Which makes NO sense. And requires NO chops. He probably just didn't take the role all that seriously. Simple pay check.

There isn't an ounce of brillaint in any moments of his performances.

Especially in comparison to ..

- "You wanna get nuts, lets get nuts"
- "Excuse me, ever dance with the devil by the pale moonlight? WHAM, rage ... I'm gonna kill you"
- "I want you to tell all your friends about me ... (the now iconic) I'm Batman !!"
- "You know how a normal person goes out, works a job ... my life is really ugh complex"

And that's just Keaton.

Bale carries BEGINS alone on his acting chops. Ranging from pissed off, confused young man / boy, to re-dedicated man, to playboy / charisma machine, to the rage filled beast known as the Batman

"Do I look like a cop?!"

 

[The Morningstar]

No, the end where he asks Riddler a riddle, when he's all brain frazzled. And his talk with Chase about her obsession with Batman. And like i said, his argument with Dick about killing Harvey Dent.

Bale in Begins was good yea, in TDK he was uninteresting, apart from the interrogation with Joker. I blame the writing on that though.

Keaton is my favourite overall. But Kilmer's portayal had flashes of greatness that leads me to believe that if he was in a better movie he would have been THE Bruce/Batman.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

Bale in Begins was good yea, in TDK he was uninteresting, apart from the interrogation with Joker. I blame the writing on that though.

Bale was GREAT in BEGINS, and very good in The Dark Knight, it's just his performance gets overlooked due to the more colorful characters, or more visible characters arcs in the film. His acting in the film is subtle, it anchors the film.

It's actually CRIMINALLY underrated.

The look he gives Rachel at the dinner table w/ Harvey, the acting in his eyes and face (alone) when at the press conference where Harvey takes the fall for Batman, the subtle changing of his voice and facial mannerisms when switching into Batman mode when Joker crashes the fund raiser party. All extremely good pieces of acting.

Kilmer's line about vengence to Dick grayson in Forever isn't a stroke of genius in acting. What's so special about it? It's the dialogue itself as written. He doesn't perform it in some special way. He was way to wooden in Forever to be considered having that much potential. He didn't even deliver a good performance with what he had. No emotion, no anything.

Guess we'll just have to disagree. Everything that you're saying was great about Kilmer wasn't a fine piece of acting, though. It's not delivery, or performance. It's dialogue. He delivers EVERYTHING in the film as wooden as possible.

And it's funny, some of the dialogue you're claiming to give props to Kilmer's "acting performance" is VERY talky. Beating you over the head with concepts as well. Yet, I hear you put down the dialogue in Nolan's films which while at times can be talky, can at times be blatant in their messages, but are more poignant, better acted, and are down right poetic in comparison.

Forever's "talky" dialogue isn't near as sophisticated. So in essence you can excuse "talky", preachy dialogue in Batman Forever of all movies, which is cornny and way too "comic booky", but sophisticated, talky, yet poetic and better acted dialogue in VASTLY superior movies is unforgivable to you? Hmmm, doesn't seem fair. Seems kind of hater-ish if you ask me.

 

[The Morningstar]

I just feel the dialogue in Forever is more natural. It seems like people actually talking to each other in a natural way. In TDK it's like, well, real people do not speak like that. They don't go on long monologues. The argument Bruce and Dick have in Forever seems, to me, like two people having an actual row, for example.

Yes there is a few moments in TDK where Bale shines. The looks he gives Rachel as you mentioned for example. And where he is mourning her death in the Penthouse.

I disagree about Kilmer being wooden though. The scene with Chase about her obsession with Batman I think Kilmer shows a certain vulnerability just in his tone of voice and speech pattern. Like he is trying to hide the fact he is jealous. The scene where he first confronts Nygma at Wayne Tech and absconds him about his brain wave idea was well delivered. He sounded like he was genuinely intelligent and authorative, unlike Bale's Batman who is really a bit of a bimbo who relies on Q, oops I mean Fox too much.

 

[Farren]

Anyway, yea, Kilmer did have the potential to be the best Wayne/Batman. There was flashes of greatness in Forever. Just no where near enough. Kilmer was let down by the script and the director.

I agree. Even though Keaton is my personal favorite, Kilmer gave a solid performance with the material he was given.

 

[SmellTheWeird]

I just feel the dialogue in Forever is more natural.

It's not. It's just as preachy.

In TDK it's like, well, real people do not speak like that. They don't go on long monologues.

There is ONE long monologue in TDK. And it psuedo breaks 4th wall, and is meant to be a poetic book end to a STORY. Not real life, a strong finish to an amazing STORY. And even then, it's not totally ridiculous either. It has proven to be one of the most powerful moments of Batman on screen, however. Obviously got a lot of audience members juices flowing. I remember it gave me chills. Well written, powerfully delivered. Echoes home the broad sense of what the character is all about. Fitting end.

If you're talking about BEGINS dialogue, they had wayyyy too much narrative to cover, and they were establishing a grand ieaology for the motivations of a legendary figure. Thus the preachy ideal speeches.

If you're referring to the "night is darkest before the dawn" speech by Dent, well it was just that ... a SPEECH, from a motivational political figure, who is spear heading a movement in Gotham. It's not unbelievable, or un realistic dialogue at all.

Yes there is a few moments in TDK where Bale shines. The looks he gives Rachel as you mentioned for example. And where he is mourning her death in the Penthouse.

We have already named a lot of scenes where he shines. It's just overlooked because of the "pretty to look at" performances of Ledger and Eckhart. But it's Bale and Oldman's performances that keep the film grounded and moving.

unlike Bale's Batman who is really a bit of a bimbo who relies on Q, oops I mean Fox too much.

Oh ... you mean the bimbo Batman that ...

Deduces the Joker's next victim by taking finger prints off a shattered bullet, and cross referencing it with various bullet types to get the correct identity?

Brillaint detective work.

The guy who cross references the names of the potential Joker thugs, by seeing who made various trips to Arkham / Prison, etc?

Brillaint detective work.

You mean the guy who has STUDIED the Gotham Police roster to the point he knows the names of officers just by surveying them while driving by in his sick Lambo?

Brillaint detective work.

The guy who takes an invention of Q, I mean Fox, takes what he knows about it, applies the logic to the whole city so he can track down a mass murdering, chaos creating terrorist?

Brillaint detective work.

The guy who obviously knows how to work on his Batmobile, by himself, as we can see he has spare parts surrounding it in his bat-bunker? The guy who knows enough medicinal knowledge that he can stitch himself up?

Intelligence. Capable

All while being within the first two years of his career in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. So he isn't even a finalized, glossy finished product and he still shows all these capabilities.

Sure he would need help from time executing a plan, or developing a new piece of technology. That's only believable and plausible. He clearly shows he's very intelligent.

Unlike Kilmer's wooden, super intelligent Batman ... "you have come up with a device that reads men's minds !!!"

No ish, Sherlock.

Meanwhile looking like he just took a handful of Xanax before he step foot on set. No emotions, no nuanced mannerisms, nothing. Literally a piece of wood in a bat-suit.

 

[The Morningstar]

haha don't bring up the bullet scanning thing as brilliant detective work. It's ****ing idiotic. You don't get finger prints on bullets. Why? Because they are inside casings when they are loaded into a clip He doesn't really do any detective work. He doesn't really display any form of genius level intellect in any of Nolan's films. At least Kilmer's Wayne solves riddles and contests Nygma's "brain wave" theories.

And he can stitch himself up, not very well i might add, as Alfred points out. I can stitch myself up. He isn't exactly great at medicine. Afterall, Fox creates the Fear Toxin antidote. I think Wayne even makes a joke about not being able to do it himself in Begins.

Dent's speech at the dinner table is unrealistic. Or at least really over wrought and melodramatic. If i was having dinner and someone starting rambling on like that i'd tell them to piss off to another table. lol. And Alfred's "tangerine" speech is just pure spoon feeding of the entire movies themes.