Season 8 Theories and Speculation

[Rocco]

Its not about giving Jon screen time. Its about bringing his story to a satisfying conclusion... and that can't happen unless he brings an end to the Night King. That was his story. Unless there is more to the Night King story, Jon's story is broken. After 8 years of following him.. after he was brought back to life and it was heavily foreshadowed that he'd serve a crucial roll in bringing an end to the long night... nothing short of that will do.

You and others ASSUMED and THOUGHT incorrectly he was supposed to end the night king. Some fan predictions were wrong, it happens. Jon's story was to organize the living against the dead and white walkers and possibly become king of the seven kingdoms, not to fight some supernatural bad guy and kill it seems. Some of us get far too cocky and entitled. I'm guilty of that myself. Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. This story, these story tellers were never obligated to give us a story we wanted. You can't please everybody. George is not going to have Jon kill all the white walkers in the books, don't see it happening.

 

[MaceB]

You and others ASSUMED and THOUGHT incorrectly he was supposed to end the night king. Some fan predictions were wrong, it happens. Jon's story was to organize the living against the dead and white walkers and possibly become king of the seven kingdoms, not to fight some supernatural bad guy and kill it seems. Some of us get far too cocky and entitled. I'm guilty of that myself. Jon is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. This story, these story tellers were never obligated to give us a story we wanted. You can't please everybody. George is not going to have Jon kill all the white walkers in the books, don't see it happening.

Nope, the story led me to believe that he was supposed to end the Night King. It wasn't my empty speculation. Jon has never been interested in the Iron Throne. And now that all our expectations have been dashed, we're supposed to be happy with Jon having an entirely new goal in the last 3 episodes. No thanks. Extremely extremely weak.

 

[Rocco]

Nope, the story led me to believe that he was supposed to end the Night King. It wasn't my empty speculation. Jon has never been interested in the Iron Throne. And now that all our expectations have been dashed, we're supposed to be happy with Jon having an entirely new goal in the last 3 episodes. No thanks. Extremely extremely weak.

So you think they made us think that to be mean? LOL No you interpreted the story that way. It is empty speculation because well look what happened lol. I'm sorry my friend but we fans need to learn from this.

 

[MaceB]

They made us think that, because apparently (if nothing changes) they felt like a last minute shock value would be more important than resolving Jon's main conflict.

It's not empty speculation. The show was highly highly foreshadowing that Jon was the Prince that was promised, and that he would confront the Night King. That's what it's been leading up to ever since he was resurrected. Versus Arya, who had absolutely no hints that this would happen. It's completely arbitrary, and it adds nothing to the story except for shock value. Anyone could have killed the Night King... and it would be just as emotionally satisfying. Gendry, the Hound, Jorah... anyone... it'd be just as significant as Arya.

Oh gee whiz, what a twist! I'm so happy I could be there to witness this thing that has no emotional weight... no narrative consistency... the main antagonist was just reduced to a guy coming through town, who could be killed with a simple move by a teenager who didn't even know him.

Sweet. So satisfying.

 

[Rocco]

They made us think that, because apparently (if nothing changes) they felt like a last minute shock value would be more important than resolving Jon's main conflict.

It's not empty speculation. The show was highly highly foreshadowing that Jon was the Prince that was promised, and that he would confront the Night King. That's what it's been leading up to ever since he was resurrected. Versus Arya, who had absolutely no hints that this would happen. It's completely arbitrary, and it adds nothing to the story except for shock value. Anyone could have killed the Night King... and it would be just as emotionally satisfying. Gendry, the Hound, Jorah... anyone... it'd be just as significant as Arya.

Oh gee whiz, what a twist! I'm so happy I could be there to witness this thing that has no emotional weight... no narrative consistency... the main antagonist was just reduced to a guy coming through town, who could be killed with a simple move by a teenager who didn't even know him.

Sweet. So satisfying.

There's no evidence they made us think that. People will interpret what we see the way they want.
Even if they wanted us to think Jon would fight and kill the night king a bit with the three stare downs, so what. I love when story tellers sometimes surprise us and it was one that fortunately worked even if it disappointed that it wasn't Jon. The night king was one of the main antagonists. It was not a simple move. Who cares if she didn't know him LOL. I don't understand that obsession. If they failed at Winterfell then they would all be ****ed. The night king had to die there or not at all. No one could have gotten away and retreated south.
Melisandre - "brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, eyes you'll close forever"
Bran giving Arya the dagger in season 7
Sam seeing the dagger in that book at the citadel.
All these were hints just small and we just didn't think about it.
God damn I love this show lol
Anyone could have killed the night king with dragon glass if they were fortunate enough yes.
The story tellers chose Arya and made sure the hints were subtle.
It through us for a loop sure but damn it worked. I say that as someone that loves Jon the most.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Its not about giving Jon screen time. Its about bringing his story to a satisfying conclusion... and that can't happen unless he brings an end to the Night King. That was his story. Unless there is more to the Night King story, Jon's story is broken. After 8 years of following him.. after he was brought back to life and it was heavily foreshadowed that he'd serve a crucial roll in bringing an end to the long night... nothing short of that will do.

My dude, you clearly have a hard-on for Jon's character. And thats cool. He's a good character, I like him too. As a result you have personal standards for what is satisfactory for his character's story arc. But your failure in logic is a result of nothing short of your personal expectations can be considered satisfying. But this show isn't written specifically for you and your expectations. There are, in fact, other characters who can fill roles despite how you feel about it. If this reality makes the show so offensively useless to you then stop watching, and stop complaining about it because you no longer have any sensible input to add to the conversation.

 

[MaceB]

There's no evidence they made us think that.

- Melissandre mentioned how the PWWP would bring the dawn.
- The Night King's main supernatural foe, the Lord of Light, brought Jon back from the dead.
- Jon spent literally 90% of his time worrying about, preparing for, and thinking about the Night King.
- Jon is the representation of Ice.
- Jon is the only living being who has looked into the NK's eyes. The NK knows him.

Maybe you might be satisfied with a character not even being there to witness his main opponent's destruction after spending years preparing to kill him. I think it's cheep. I can tell you this for absolute sure. The show certainly set up a Jon / NK confrontation over an Arya / NK confrontation. Arya killing the Night King is completely random.

People will interpret what we see the way they want.

I'm just working off of what the show is giving me. I didn't guess wrong; I was purposely deceived by the writers so they could have their surprise twist moment, that adds absolutely nothing...besides it being a twist.

Even if they wanted us to think Jon would fight and kill the night king a bit with the three stare downs,

They absolutely did.

so what.

It's weak, dissatisfying writing.. that's so what. This is the equivalent of Pepper Potts coming in to save the day at the end of Infinity War. It's cheap, it's unearned, and it only serves to neuter the main protagonist. The only value it brings is the superficial value of being a twist. Bad writing. Period.

I love when story tellers sometimes surprise us and it was one that fortunately worked even if it disappointed that it wasn't Jon.

Not all twists are equal. A twist at the end of a story is usually pretty ineffective. It's one thing to change course in the middle of a show. It's quite another to change course literally seconds before the final resolution after spending years trying to convince viewers that it'd end differently. This is basically the only argument that I've seen from supporters. "Oh... you're just pissed cause your theory didn't come true, but GOT has twists... that's what it's known for." But I'm not gonna give the show a past on a poor plot development just cause they are known for twists. A twist needs to be earned and needs to take us in exciting new places. It did neither here.

The night king was one of the main antagonists.

Who apparently is so weak that he can be killed in 10 seconds and 2 moves.

It was not a simple move.

Looked pretty darn simple to me.

Who cares if she didn't know him LOL.

Narrative weight. Killing the NK would have meant something from Jon. We have been with him this whole time, and we would have felt that weight. But having your teenage sister appear out of nowhere when her story had absolutely nothing to do with that antagonist before - no weight. Like I've said.. it might as well have been Gendry. That would have been just as emotionally compelling.

I don't understand that obsession. If they failed at Winterfell then they would all be ****ed. The night king had to die there or not at all. No one could have gotten away and retreated south.

Sure, but Jon should have done the deed, if anybody.

Melisandre - "brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, eyes you'll close forever"

Arya already killed two other people with blue eyes. To say this was foreshadowing that Arya would kill the Night is quite the stretch. If anything, it was foreshadowing that she was going to kill Mellisandre... but I guess that would have been too predictable for the writers.

Bran giving Arya the dagger in season 7

What about it? Bran can't see into the future, and the dagger was mostly attributed to the Lannister storyline. Mormon gave Jon Longclaw... same thing. And even then... that happened in season 7. They've been foreshadowing the NK / Jon conflict since the beginning of the show.

Sam seeing the dagger in that book at the citadel.

And this foreshadows Arya killing the Night King how?

All these were hints just small and we just didn't think about it.

There were way way way more hints that Jon would do it, if anything.

Anyone could have killed the night king with dragon glass if they were fortunate enough yes.
The story tellers chose Arya and made sure the hints were subtle.

Yeah, but why? Why her? What value does she bring over Jon? Beside shock value? Absolutely nothing. It could have been the wolf, and it would have been just as meaningful.

It through us for a loop sure but damn it worked. I say that as someone that loves Jon the most.

It didn't work at all. If there isn't more explanation, it is literally the worst decision the show has ever made. Took me right out of it. It actually makes everything that came before it, bad. Unless something happens, this is a true LOST moment, where they screw up the ending so bad, it literally ruins the rest of the show.

 

[MaceB]

My dude, you clearly have a hard-on for Jon's character. And thats cool. He's a good character, I like him too. As a result you have personal standards for what is satisfactory for his character's story arc. But your failure in logic is a result of nothing short of your personal expectations can be considered satisfying. But this show isn't written specifically for you and your expectations. There are, in fact, other characters who can fill roles despite how you feel about it. If this reality makes the show so offensively useless to you then stop watching, and stop complaining about it because you no longer have any sensible input to add to the conversation.

Nope, I'm just reading the cues that the show specifically gave me. I'm following where they lead. In this case, they led me right off a cliff.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Nope, I'm just reading the cues that the show specifically gave me. I'm following where they lead. In this case, they led me right off a cliff.

While ignoring all the other cues because you love Jon Snow.

 

[Rocco]

- Melissandre mentioned how the PWWP would bring the dawn.
- The Night King's main supernatural foe, the Lord of Light, brought Jon back from the dead.
- Jon spent literally 90% of his time worrying about, preparing for, and thinking about the Night King.
- Jon is the representation of Ice.
- Jon is the only living being who has looked into the NK's eyes. The NK knows him.

Maybe you might be satisfied with a character not even being there to witness his main opponent's destruction after spending years preparing to kill him. I think it's cheep. I can tell you this for absolute sure. The show certainly set up a Jon / NK confrontation over an Arya / NK confrontation. Arya killing the Night King is completely random.


I'm just working off of what the show is giving me. I didn't guess wrong; I was purposely deceived by the writers so they could have their surprise twist moment, that adds absolutely nothing...besides it being a twist.



They absolutely did.



It's weak, dissatisfying writing.. that's so what. This is the equivalent of Pepper Potts coming in to save the day at the end of Infinity War. It's cheap, it's unearned, and it only serves to neuter the main protagonist. The only value it brings is the superficial value of being a twist. Bad writing. Period.



Not all twists are equal. A twist at the end of a story is usually pretty ineffective. It's one thing to change course in the middle of a show. It's quite another to change course literally seconds before the final resolution after spending years trying to convince viewers that it'd end differently. This is basically the only argument that I've seen from supporters. "Oh... you're just pissed cause your theory didn't come true, but GOT has twists... that's what it's known for." But I'm not gonna give the show a past on a poor plot development just cause they are known for twists. A twist needs to be earned and needs to take us in exciting new places. It did neither here.



Who apparently is so weak that he can be killed in 10 seconds and 2 moves.



Looked pretty darn simple to me.


Narrative weight. Killing the NK would have meant something from Jon. We have been with him this whole time, and we would have felt that weight. But having your teenage sister appear out of nowhere when her story had absolutely nothing to do with that antagonist before - no weight. Like I've said.. it might as well have been Gendry. That would have been just as emotionally compelling.


Sure, but Jon should have done the deed, if anybody.



Arya already killed two other people with blue eyes. To say this was foreshadowing that Arya would kill the Night is quite the stretch. If anything, it was foreshadowing that she was going to kill Mellisandre... but I guess that would have been too predictable for the writers.



What about it? Bran can't see into the future, and the dagger was mostly attributed to the Lannister storyline. Mormon gave Jon Longclaw... same thing. And even then... that happened in season 7. They've been foreshadowing the NK / Jon conflict since the beginning of the show.



And this foreshadows Arya killing the Night King how?



There were way way way more hints that Jon would do it, if anything.



Yeah, but why? Why her? What value does she bring over Jon? Beside shock value? Absolutely nothing. It could have been the wolf, and it would have been just as meaningful.



It didn't work at all. If there isn't more explanation, it is literally the worst decision the show has ever made. Took me right out of it. It actually makes everything that came before it, bad. Unless something happens, this is a true LOST moment, where they screw up the ending so bad, it literally ruins the rest of the show.

We didn't know how specifically the dawn would be brought, we assumed.
Melisandre brought Jon back. We don't know if gods are real.
You're guessing, along with me, that the show was saying Jon would kill the night king.
I get why we would guess this but we were wrong.
We thought there was more hints but apparently not.
Arya can kill more than two people with two eyes.
I wanted Jon too but the story tellers are doing what they want.
The night king let his guard down and got over confident. He didn't see or expect that move from Arya. What other move would kill him? I don' know. Could Jon's sword skills been enough?
We can't decide for the writers what is foreshadowing what. It's not impossible for us viewers to assume something correctly no matter how much we think it's obvious.

 

[MaceB]

There were no other cues that Arya was going to kill the Night King You simultaneously criticize me for reading into things, and then grab the "blue eyes" prophecy from Season 2 that it was obviously a reference to the Night King. That doesn't make more sense. If Arya was foreshadowed to kill the Night king, then clearly Jon was foreshadowed to do the same much much much more often.

 

[Motown Marvel]

There were no other cues that Arya was going to kill the Night King You simultaneously criticize me for reading into things, and then grab the "blue eyes" prophecy from Season 2 that it was obviously a reference to the Night King. That doesn't make more sense. If Arya was foreshadowed to kill the Night king, then clearly Jon was foreshadowed to do the same much much much more often.

No cues foreshadowed it was going to be Arya? With a 30 second google search I found this article from 2017 which theorized she would use the dagger given to her by Bran to kill the Night King. How many more cues do you think I could come up with if I actually put effort into the search?

You like Jon. It made sense it could have been Jon. I get it. But your insistence that it could be no one other than Jon is flawed.

 

[MaceB]

No cues foreshadowed it was going to be Arya? With a 30 second google search I found this article from 2017 which theorized she would use the dagger given to her by Bran to kill the Night King. How many more cues do you think I could come up with if I actually put effort into the search?

Well you've only given the "blue eyes" reference so far, which is not a clue about the Night King at all. Again, Arya's story has had nothing to do with the Night King up til now. And if you were going to accept that Arya's story did foreshadow this, then certainly Jon's foreshadowed it much much more.

 

[Rocco]

There were no other cues that Arya was going to kill the Night King You simultaneously criticize me for reading into things, and then grab the "blue eyes" prophecy from Season 2 that it was obviously a reference to the Night King. That doesn't make more sense. If Arya was foreshadowed to kill the Night king, then clearly Jon was foreshadowed to do the same much much much more often.

The story tellers clearly didn't want us to know it was a set up until this episode. We may not like that but hey it's what they did. I see George doing something similar, subverting our expectations.

 

[MaceB]

The story tellers clearly didn't want us to know it was a set up until this episode. We may not like that but hey it's what they did. I see George doing something similar, subverting our expectations.

Subverting expectations for its own sake is bad writing.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Well you've only given the "blue eyes" reference so far, which is not a clue about the Night King at all. Again, Arya's story has had nothing to do with the Night King up til now. And if you were going to accept that Arya's story did foreshadow this, then certainly Jon's foreshadowed it much much more.

I've said nothing of the blue eyes reference. And per my last post, which you just quoted, there is more than just the blue eyes dialogue. The fact that is was more overtly foreshadowed for Jon's character doesn't give him the exclusive right to be the one to make the kill. It makes him a candidate for it. Just like others, including Arya.

 

[MaceB]

Can you lay them out for me then?

The fact that Jon was highly foreshadowed to kill the Night King... much more than anybody else... does build up expectations. And the writers wanted to crash those expectations... even if it apparently was completely dissatisfying. Anyone but Jon would apparently do, cause they had to have that twist I guess. Even if it was completely unearned and dissatisfying. ... which it was.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Can you lay them out for me then?

Yeah. I could. But I'm not going to. It'd waste of my time or effort to try and convince you of something you've already made up your mind about.

 

[Rocco]

Subverting expectations for its own sake is bad writing.

It can be bad writing yes. The Last Jedi is a good example. This though surprisingly wasn't. I always figured it was Jon and/or Arya who would kill the night king honestly deep down. As soon as Bran gave her the dagger. I thought, "oh Jon will probably fight the night king and Arya will throw him the dagger or save Jon." something akin to that. I was wrong partially lol

 

[Roose Bolton]

It could have been Dany who killed the Night King and that would have worked within the narrative that was established, What with her being the embodiment of fire and a contender for the messiah role.

 

[Madam-Shogun]

Just face it, the long night was a red herring.

 

[Rocco]

It could have been Dany who killed the Night King and that would have worked within the narrative that was established, What with her being the embodiment of fire and a contender for the messiah role.

Yeah it definitely could have been Dany. For Dany it was really personal for her since the night king killed one of her dragons. I get it though, many don't like having their emotions and expectations played with. I do wonder though if George RR Martin doesn't have Jon destroy the white walkers in the books if books fans will hate George for subverting their expectations. I don't see him having Jon doing this. If he was then he would have told D&D and they would have had it happen on the show.

 

[Iceman]

I did like the end for Melisandre with her purpose served.

 

[C. Lee]

Its not about giving Jon screen time. Its about bringing his story to a satisfying conclusion... and that can't happen unless he brings an end to the Night King. That was his story. Unless there is more to the Night King story, Jon's story is broken. After 8 years of following him.. after he was brought back to life and it was heavily foreshadowed that he'd serve a crucial roll in bringing an end to the long night... nothing short of that will do.

I haven't spent 8 years following the show....I started watching it about 3 months ago. In the last 3 months I watched the entire series....and there are many characters I like and love, and many of them have died. I had no expectations for any one character to kill the Night King (few things went the way I expected in this series) so I was not pissed that Jon didn't do it.

 

[Rocco]

Subverting expectations for its own sake is bad writing.

No it's not, it can be. Not subverting expectations for its own sake can be bad too.
Avengers Infinity War subverted expectations and it worked.