Sentry: Civil War and New Avengers #24...

[TheCorpulent1]

Thats very true but i think the deciding factor in the collective fight was inexpierence. You can have all the power in the world but if you dont know how to control it, how to use it, or even what kinda powers you have (the guy didnt even know he could fly until near the end) then youll get beaten by someone who knows how to use their abilities in a more versatile manner.

Also aside from a handful of "cosmic" guys, they are all pretty vastly powerful. Which is why in my head i always thought thats pretty much the reason they reside in space to being with, because they could lay waste to a planet like Earth. Like I said it really all comes down to how you use your given powers. Spidey has taken down guys way more powerful than himself, because he made good use of what he got.

True, except for the fact that I don't believe you can have all the power in the world and still get beaten by someone weaker who has more experience. Maybe the Collective had enough invulnerability to withstand whatever the Sentry could do to him. Maybe he was so strong that even the least skillful flailing translated into more effective blows than the Sentry's punches. Put it this way: Thor has about a thousand years' worth of experience on the Juggernaut, but he could never manage more than a ring-out win against the Juggernaut because the classic Juggernaut's powers were literally just too much for Thor to stand up to. Thor hit Jugs with a godblast and, while it did push him back, it didn't physically harm him at all. What does experience buy you against a guy whose invulnerable even to your most potent attack?

bah

Marvel's higher tier level pwns DC's

I'd say they're about even. Marvel and DC both have guys who go way up there on the power scale.

 

[yahman]

I never understood why "cosmic" somehow equated to "ungodly powerful" for some people. Mar-Vell, Genis' dad, was a cosmic hero, but he was relatively low-powered. He could lift a handful of tons and use his Nega-Bands to fire energy and fly. That's about it. Genis-Vell had similar powers, but to a greater extent because he internalized energy via cells that worked like capacitors. Neither of them were as powerful as the Collective probably was. The guy has every mutant power that's not accounted for in the remaining 198 mutants. Given that there were thousands, possibly millions, of mutants all over the world, you don't think he'd be more powerful than a guy with a handful of relatively standard powers? You think most of the powers were crappy, but the fact is, we don't know anything about most of the powers. He could've had the strength of a thousand Colossuses, the energy manipulation of a thousand Bishops and Gambits, etc. To relate them to the cosmics, omega-level mutants can stand up to a lot of the most powerful cosmic badasses short of the major cosmic beings like Galactus, and this guy must've had quite a few omega-level powers mixed in with the rest. The current Sentry's having trouble against him makes perfect sense to me. Certainly more than his having trouble against Genis.

Very good post, and it greatly illustartes the wasted opportunity that Bendis had to make a truely Classic story. With all those powers, you'd have thought his attack programme would have amounted to more than just generally ramming into people. Although the incident with Binary was one of the few high points.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, in all fairness, Bendis and McNiven didn't have a lot of space to work since they felt it necessary to give the first five or six pages of the first Collective issue to splash pages detailing every few seconds of the Collective's journey towards Earth.

 

[bkhedr]

Very good post, and it greatly illustartes the wasted opportunity that Bendis had to make a truely Classic story. With all those powers, you'd have thought his attack programme would have amounted to more than just generally ramming into people. Although the incident with Binary was one of the few high points.

That was freaking awesome

 

[yahman]

True, except for the fact that I don't believe you can have all the power in the world and still get beaten by someone weaker who has more experience. Maybe the Collective had enough invulnerability to withstand whatever the Sentry could do to him. Maybe he was so strong that even the least skillful flailing translated into more effective blows than the Sentry's punches. Put it this way: Thor has about a thousand years' worth of experience on the Juggernaut, but he could never manage more than a ring-out win against the Juggernaut because the classic Juggernaut's powers were literally just too much for Thor to stand up to. Thor hit Jugs with a godblast and, while it did push him back, it didn't physically harm him at all. What does experience buy you against a guy whose invulnerable even to your most potent attack?

I think the fact that Tony seemed to over shadow Sentry through out the arc, left a lot people very confused. I mean with the Energy Sentry is apparently packing, a Repulsor Ray is unlikely to really do much. People have forgotten the fact that he did single handidly take down Alpha Flight, and Binary with little to no trouble.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

No one forgot it. Bendis just seems to think Iron Man can do anything. He's shown Iron Man using ten times the tech that writers of IM's own series have over years in the course of just the 20-some-odd issues of NA.

 

[bkhedr]

No one forgot it. Bendis just seems to think Iron Man can do anything. He's shown Iron Man using ten times the tech that writers of IM's own series have over years in the course of just the 20-some-odd issues of NA.

haha
so true

 

[yahman]

No one forgot it. Bendis just seems to think Iron Man can do anything. He's shown Iron Man using ten times the tech that writers of IM's own series have over years in the course of just the 20-some-odd issues of NA.

Which i dont really have a problem with, maybe he should be writing Iron man. But he shouldn't be over shdowing a character whose basically a living Sun.

 

[Doombringer]

True, except for the fact that I don't believe you can have all the power in the world and still get beaten by someone weaker who has more experience. Maybe the Collective had enough invulnerability to withstand whatever the Sentry could do to him. Maybe he was so strong that even the least skillful flailing translated into more effective blows than the Sentry's punches. Put it this way: Thor has about a thousand years' worth of experience on the Juggernaut, but he could never manage more than a ring-out win against the Juggernaut because the classic Juggernaut's powers were literally just too much for Thor to stand up to. Thor hit Jugs with a godblast and, while it did push him back, it didn't physically harm him at all. What does experience buy you against a guy whose invulnerable even to your most potent attack?

Awesome post. I didnt mean all the power in the world thing to be taken taken literally though. I meant, you know, just for the most part in particular circumstances. Of course your gonna have your exceptions (Thor vs Jugs is a perfect example). It depends on the context in which and where its used. It also depends on the players. In the case of Jugs and Thor, they both knew what they (themselves) were all about, they're expierenced enough to know what the can take and dish out for the most part. I mean jugs main ability besides being unstoppable while in motion is being invulnerable, thats his power. Its a little different.

But the collective host knew absolutely nothing about himself unlike for the most part the Sentry. Like i said he didnt even know he could fly. And going up against the Sentry of all people, the fight shoulda panned out differently in this particular instance with all the hoopla on how powerful Reynolds is, is all im saying ya know. I just really doubt the collective's upper limits, surpass Sentry's upper limits. Dont forget hes also the Void. Theres a difference between not knowing what your capable of, and not knowing what your opponent is capable of. Like I said, Sentry was having an off day when they fought. I mean if Sentry really does have the potential power of million exploding suns, his power should be unimaginablly catastrophic.

I also really dont think the collective has some individuals powers x's anything. I dont think he has the strength of 1000 colossus, etc. From what i gathered when i read the arc it was all of the HofM mutants aside from 198 combined and sentinent. He might had a mixture of strength like the strength of blob and colossus for example. We just dont know enough info on these two to make accurate statements, only assumptions. Your a good man Corp, very informative. Keep me on my toes, baby

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Really? Just the Collective? What about when he couldn't handle Genis-Vell, who was suffering from cosmic awareness overload at the time, no less? I think he's definitely less powerful. How much less, I don't know, but given how inconsistent he's become, I'd say no one at Marvel knows, either.

For this, I say that fight was still horrible ass writing.

As for the Sentry, I'll say his power levels seem to have diminished some from his original mini, where he was said to be as high as God, and just as powerful. His range of powers doesn't seem to have gone away, but just the RAW power he has just seems to have gone away. Granted, his Void self in NA destroyed the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Namor, the Inhumans, the X-Men, and Doctor Strange all at the same time, and the Sentry is basically the only person powerful enough to fight and defeat the Void physically. Backed by the Void can effortlessly break every single bone in the Hulk's body, and the Sentry is said to be MORE powerful.

So, while the Sentry just hasn't been used all that much (I really doubt killing the Collective was the Sentry's goal, since Iron Man was stressing that they shouldn't kill the Collective, and then the Sentry threw him into the sun, which seems to be a reoccuring theme with him anymore) to the point where his power seems to be on the severe level it once was said to be, I could easily blame it on Bendis being a Spider-****e loving ******* who can't write. I mean, who else would put Echo on a team for a single arc, and then have non-members show up in the book more often. Mr. Fantastic spent more f'ing time in the NA than Echo.

Either way. The Sentry in his second mini stayed true to his extreme power levels of beyond light speed, strength, and power. The only real exposure we have to him anymore seems to be in NA, where Bendis doesn't seem to deal with him much. And while the Collective definitely would've been considered an Omega class mutant with adaptable changability (he learned powers as he needed them, and had millions to draw upon, several of the same type, so they were augmented), you could easily say that someone on THAT level would've been a problem, or more so, for people like the Surfer or Thor, where Sentry seems to be levitating around at the moment for whatever reason. I just hope that Jenkins gets his ass back on the Sentry and shows him for what he truly can be.

 

[Horrorfan]

Big hitters powers fluctuate all the time. I mean superman has been thrown around by venom. It depends on what the story dictates.


Whatever happened when the sentry fought wolverine? Or hasn't that issue hit yet?

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Bleh. SCREW what the doctor says. I don't care if my headaches are brought on because I refuse to go 100% and forcefully limit my thought patterns.

Either way, I didn't get a chance to put this in yesterday, so I'm keeping the thread alive needlessly with my reflective grief upon you all.

The Sentry/Genis fight (dear lord in heaven, I hate the fact I'm about to utilize this piece of crap fight). This fight wasn't portrayed out in this thread in it's reality. To say that since the Sentry had a hard time against Genis, AND a hard time against the Collective, so the Sentry doesn't make sense would be similar to me saying that: Since Captain America couldn't defeat Charles Xavier, there's no reason he should be able to defeat the Taskmaster, or really anybody for that matter.

Nobody has given the reality to HOW Genis kept the Sentry at bay. And that, like Xavier, deals all with his powers. (I really am asking myself why I'm defending this craptacular issue). Genis didn't simply overpower the Sentry, hell, he didn't even TOUCH or ATTACK the Sentry. They played a little aerial ballet simply because of Genis' power. As the Sentry brought energy into himself and was about to utilize it for an attack, Genis would just shunt that energy into another dimension, where the Sentry simply can't use it, effectively making it so the Sentry had nothing to attack with. It's not that Genis overpowered him, or that Sentry was just some weak pittiling man child, it was just that Genis' particular power set allowed him to take the Sentry's strength, and make it a weakness. Like how Captain America wouldn't be able to defeat Xavier, not because Xavier is some superhuman dynamo of power, but because Xavier's power would just shut down Cap's mind.

 

[yahman]

Bleh. SCREW what the doctor says. I don't care if my headaches are brought on because I refuse to go 100% and forcefully limit my thought patterns.

Either way, I didn't get a chance to put this in yesterday, so I'm keeping the thread alive needlessly with my reflective grief upon you all.

The Sentry/Genis fight (dear lord in heaven, I hate the fact I'm about to utilize this piece of crap fight). This fight wasn't portrayed out in this thread in it's reality. To say that since the Sentry had a hard time against Genis, AND a hard time against the Collective, so the Sentry doesn't make sense would be similar to me saying that: Since Captain America couldn't defeat Charles Xavier, there's no reason he should be able to defeat the Taskmaster, or really anybody for that matter.

Nobody has given the reality to HOW Genis kept the Sentry at bay. And that, like Xavier, deals all with his powers. (I really am asking myself why I'm defending this craptacular issue). Genis didn't simply overpower the Sentry, hell, he didn't even TOUCH or ATTACK the Sentry. They played a little aerial ballet simply because of Genis' power. As the Sentry brought energy into himself and was about to utilize it for an attack, Genis would just shunt that energy into another dimension, where the Sentry simply can't use it, effectively making it so the Sentry had nothing to attack with. It's not that Genis overpowered him, or that Sentry was just some weak pittiling man child, it was just that Genis' particular power set allowed him to take the Sentry's strength, and make it a weakness. Like how Captain America wouldn't be able to defeat Xavier, not because Xavier is some superhuman dynamo of power, but because Xavier's power would just shut down Cap's mind.

Good post, but Veratility is agood indication of power aswell. I mean if he had wanted to, Gennis could have just Teleported Sentry ito a Black hole, or tarnsported his brain into another Dimension. Thats the problem with Hyper Dimensional powers, they tend to make a character unbeatable.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I still think the issue was **** only because of the later fight against the Squadron Sinister.

 

[supermarvelman]

Yeah, but Doombringer was saying he should've had an easier time against the Collective, a dude who has 90% of the mutant powers on Earth. If he couldn't stand up to Genis too well, how should he have had an easier time against the Collective?

The confidence thing is neither here nor there. It's just a quick write-off for why different writers portray the Sentry at vastly different power levels.

Atleast its a reason as to why his power fluctuates,even if its an easy write-off, I personally think its a very good weakness for the Sentry to have, it is his Kryptone. If they did portray Sentry to be as powerful as he really is, they wouldn't beable to use him. How is that for decades upon decades, Superman has seemed to get his ass handed to him by weaker opponents, but still beat Darkseids ass, thats just how comics work. The thing with Superman though, how does he lose to weaker opponents, he could be depressed as hell, but that shouldn't effect his abilities.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I haven't seen Superman lose to very many weaker opponents lately. As for the Sentry's confidence being his Kryptonite, I contend that Kryptonite is an outdated concept that lost its usefulness after the Silver Age. Surely the savvier writers of today's comics can come up with a way to challenge a protagonist without resorting to the old built-in deus ex machina weakness. That's not a suggestion, either, it's a fact: good writers in the last ten years have challenged Superman without a trace of Kryptonite anywhere in sight, and it usually works out better than when Kryptonite is involved.

But, as you pointed out, it's the nature of the beast for comic characters' powers to be inconsistent. They change based on a story's needs. So, in that sense, the weak-ass confidence nonsense is indeed better than nothing, I suppose. I still don't like it, though.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Good post, but Veratility is agood indication of power aswell. I mean if he had wanted to, Gennis could have just Teleported Sentry ito a Black hole, or tarnsported his brain into another Dimension. Thats the problem with Hyper Dimensional powers, they tend to make a character unbeatable.

I agree to a point. I doubt Sentry would've fallen victim to a black hole or anything. But the 'Bolts were just trying to stress a point, not utterly destroy the Avengers.

 

[supermarvelman]

I haven't seen Superman lose to very many weaker opponents lately. As for the Sentry's confidence being his Kryptonite, I contend that Kryptonite is an outdated concept that lost its usefulness after the Silver Age. Surely the savvier writers of today's comics can come up with a way to challenge a protagonist without resorting to the old built-in deus ex machina weakness. That's not a suggestion, either, it's a fact: good writers in the last ten years have challenged Superman without a trace of Kryptonite anywhere in sight, and it usually works out better than when Kryptonite is involved.

But, as you pointed out, it's the nature of the beast for comic characters' powers to be inconsistent. They change based on a story's needs. So, in that sense, the weak-ass confidence nonsense is indeed better than nothing, I suppose. I still don't like it, though.

But thats what I'm saying, even without kryptonite many weaker opponents have givin Superman a beating, they might not have won the fight but they still gave him a beating without Kryptonite around. I personally love the idea of his powerlevel being based off of his confidence. He has a lot of issues to deal with and as he starts to get over them he will start to become more powerful.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

What weaker opponents have "given Superman a beating" lately?

Also, I'm pretty sure the Sentry will never be getting over anything. Jenkins created him with a strong psychological element for a reason, and I don't think it was to eventually remove the psychological problems and have him become super-powerful.

 

[Fading]

Sentry is allegedly at the Silver Surfer beyond level, so much to be said to fight Galactus, and have power without limits, and abilities without restraint. So I don't see how a sound based attack would really stomp him, when Sentry could go from New York, to Africa, and back to holding his wife, with his wife only taking notice because he seemed to zone out for a moment.

Not sure if this quite counts or not, but in an F4 comic after Johnny torched a building and hero's were hunting them down the Watcher teleported them away to fight a Water powered Doom. In that comic Doom was finally defeated and then some when Black Bolt yelled into an amplifying type gun origionally to be powered by Sue (she was wounded) when Reed asked Black Bolt to use it. So not sure if Watchers are as powerful as Galactus or not (in a what if they were kinda almost equals but that's what if and a hungry galactus), but apparently a Black Bolt semi yell has the power to stop Doom with the energy of one.

Do agree with you tho, if Sentry is as powerful as they say he will have Black Bolt out and quick. Speed of Light Sentry can knock BB out before he can utter a word most likely. Just saying there's potential that BB can hurt or incapacitate Sentry with a yell, assuming Sentry's not even more powerful than what's been told.

 

[Fading]

Awesome post. I didnt mean all the power in the world thing to be taken taken literally though. I meant, you know, just for the most part in particular circumstances. Of course your gonna have your exceptions (Thor vs Jugs is a perfect example). It depends on the context in which and where its used. It also depends on the players. In the case of Jugs and Thor, they both knew what they (themselves) were all about, they're expierenced enough to know what the can take and dish out for the most part. I mean jugs main ability besides being unstoppable while in motion is being invulnerable, thats his power. Its a little different.

But the collective host knew absolutely nothing about himself unlike for the most part the Sentry. Like i said he didnt even know he could fly. And going up against the Sentry of all people, the fight shoulda panned out differently in this particular instance with all the hoopla on how powerful Reynolds is, is all im saying ya know. I just really doubt the collective's upper limits, surpass Sentry's upper limits. Dont forget hes also the Void. Theres a difference between not knowing what your capable of, and not knowing what your opponent is capable of. Like I said, Sentry was having an off day when they fought. I mean if Sentry really does have the potential power of million exploding suns, his power should be unimaginablly catastrophic.

I also really dont think the collective has some individuals powers x's anything. I dont think he has the strength of 1000 colossus, etc. From what i gathered when i read the arc it was all of the HofM mutants aside from 198 combined and sentinent. He might had a mixture of strength like the strength of blob and colossus for example. We just dont know enough info on these two to make accurate statements, only assumptions. Your a good man Corp, very informative. Keep me on my toes, baby

The way I see it is like giving a kid incredible power like the Richards kid. Collective might have been naive of his powers and not even know which powers he had, but from pure instinct when threatened he could have brought them out. Like let's say you can stretch you arms via Mr. Fantastic. Someone you care about falls off of a cliff, but you don't know you have those powers. You rush to the side and throw your arms out, not because you believe your arms can stretch, but out of pure instinct you want to save that person. Suddenly your arms stretch and you grab the person, and don't even think about it til their safe.

Same with this, while stated above some mutants powers were more cosmetic than practical and powerful, many were very powerful and some omega's. Who knows if there were other Iceman types that when their bodies destroyed it simply can reform, or ones like externals with long life spans, ones with Strength like Colossus. Heck Colossus's durability is listed above Thor's, and there could have been mutants far more durable than him. We prob will never know how many powers he had tho, but when backed into a corner he could have possibly kept bringing out more and mroe with time.

 

[Doombringer]

I understand where your coming from... but like people have said, Sentry's power levels are off the charts. Hes got 100+ tons level strength, practically invulnerable, faster than light speed, devastating and versatile energy projection, varying mental abilities, etc. I mean can you even fathom what it be like to have the power of "one million exploding suns" compact into one tiny body, that of Reynolds?

For a better mental/visual understanding, if you saw Superman Returns, remember in the begining when the red sun imploded and destroyed Krypton? That was ONE sun, a red dwarf too (i think it was a dwarf). Now imagine 1,000,000 of those, if not bigger, suns exploding simulataneously. Now granted they theorize that he has that much power but still, a guy with 1,000,000 mutants powers (a quarter or more of which are pretty much useless really) vs a guy with possibly the power of 1,000,000 exploding suns, its shouldnt be that hard to see who would win.

Everything was amd should have been in Sentry favor for the fight, yet he had trouble because he had a bad day. I just find it odd, frusterating, and intriguing at the same time. Why give the man so much power if he cant use it fully. Its like a tease almost. That handicap (his emotional state) is the part i find interesting. The only thing powerful enough to surpress Sentry really is Sentry himself.

I for one wanna see the Void do some more damage.

 

[supermarvelman]

What weaker opponents have "given Superman a beating" lately?

Also, I'm pretty sure the Sentry will never be getting over anything. Jenkins created him with a strong psychological element for a reason, and I don't think it was to eventually remove the psychological problems and have him become super-powerful.

It doesn't have to be lately, throughout all the decades Superman has existed, he has gotten beaten from time to time. It doesn't matter if he lost yesterday or 50 years ago. The point is that throughout the years Superman hasnt totally dominated every opponent he's ever had even weaker opponents. Sentry has not actually lost fights against weaker opponets, same with Superman, but they still get tossed around from time to time. Do you get what I'm saying.

 

[supermarvelman]

Everything was amd should have been in Sentry favor for the fight, yet he had trouble because he had a bad day. I just find it odd, frusterating, and intriguing at the same time. Why give the man so much power if he cant use it fully. Its like a tease almost. That handicap (his emotional state) is the part i find interesting. The only thing powerful enough to surpress Sentry really is Sentry himself.

I for one wanna see the Void do some more damage.

That would make things to easy

 

[Doombringer]

Well perhaps i shoulda worded it better and said at least some of the time.