Should this Superman kill? - Part 1

[Gambits' Ace]

The problem I have with the end is that Superman fights Zod so hard that buildings come crumbling to the ground filled with thousands of people. Superman essentially creates 9/11 times 10 and doesnt stop to save even a person, yet one family is worth snapping zods neck over. He has thrown Zod through so many buildings by that point as well, he couldnt have just thrown Zod through the roof?

 

[Nathan]

The problem I have with the end is that Superman fights Zod so hard that buildings come crumbling to the ground filled with thousands of people. Superman essentially creates 9/11 times 10 and doesnt stop to save even a person, yet one family is worth snapping zods neck over. He has thrown Zod through so many buildings by that point as well, he couldnt have just thrown Zod through the roof?

And then what? Continue to fight until Zod eventually gains the upper hand and goes on a killing spree? Yeah, he could have probably thrown Zod up through the roof, or heck, flown him out. But Zod's "Never." made it clear he would never rest. Like he said, there was only one way it could end, either Kal dies, or he does.

There was no Phantom Zone Projector, Kryptonite or another way to detain Zod. There was only one solution to keep the people of earth safe from an unhinged Zod and he had to make that difficult decision.

 

[Gambits' Ace]

There was only one solution to keep the people of earth safe

Keep the people of Earth safe? You mean all those thousands of people Superman left dead in the middle of Metropolis without even an attempt to save them. The problem with the death is Snyder doesn't earn it. He doesn't show Superman struggling to save people during the fight so he can ultimately learn he cant both save people and beat zod. The movie makes it seem he's only doing it to save this one family.

 

[Nathan]

Except we've watched him the entire movie trying to keep people safe. Heck, he handed himself over to the authorities and left his fate in humanities hands. Yeah, they could have shown him trying to safe people during the battle with Zod, only for him to realize it's not possible unless he takes Zod out. But Zod was dictating the pace of the battle. He was either always trying to get a lock on Zod, or got sucker punched when he lost sight of him.

 

[Gambits' Ace]

but thats the thing we haven't seen him try to keep people safe the entire movie. When did he actually physically save someone not named Lois?

 

[Nathan]

Alright, this is where I just end the discussion.

 

[CConn]

Superman saves his mom, Pete Ross, several military people, plus the entire world by turning himself over to Zoe in the first place, and yknow, stopping the whole teraforming thing too.

But he does has a roundabout point; obviously, most of MoS is about Superman's need and desire to save others, but at the same time, the film really doesn't really attach a personal, human element beyond Lois and one or two of the rest of the supporting cast, and that lack of intimacy can very much give off the vibe that Superman - or rather, the entire film - doesn't really care much about anyone outside of their core group of characters.

As for the topic itself, I have no problem if Superman kills - at least in situations like the one in MoS. That whole morality of not killing in superhero comics is downright foolish and illogical to begin with.

 

[Nathan]

That whole morality of not killing in superhero comics is downright foolish and illogical to begin with.

Well, it wouldn't be so foolish, if criminals would just stay locked up in the comics. It definitely gets foolish when someone like the Joker escaped like the 10th time, and his death count just keeps climbing. In a Movie, you don't have that problem. Because villains either die, or stay locked up.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Pragmatically speaking, Superman should have killed each Kryptonian the second he could. But really, when he first fights them in Smallville, he seems rather out of his league, so it's somewhat understandable.

Hopefully in future movies, he'll be less reluctant to use lethal force. If he had snapped Zod's neck earlier, he would have saved hundreds if not thousands of lives.

 

[CConn]

Well, it wouldn't be so foolish, if criminals would just stay locked up in the comics. It definitely gets foolish when someone like the Joker escaped like the 10th time, and his death count just keeps climbing. In a Movie, you don't have that problem. Because villains either die, or stay locked up.

That's just because it hasn't happened yet.

Let's see how long Loki stays locked up in the Marvel Film Universe.

 

[JonKent]

I say it would have been better if he just lobotomize him and then turn him in to answer for his crimes against humanity S.T.A.R. labs will find a prison for him bathed with red sun all day and night just drooling. A fitting end for a criminal despot.

 

[Tempest]

The problem I have with the end is that Superman fights Zod so hard that buildings come crumbling to the ground filled with thousands of people. Superman essentially creates 9/11 times 10 and doesnt stop to save even a person, yet one family is worth snapping zods neck over. He has thrown Zod through so many buildings by that point as well, he couldnt have just thrown Zod through the roof?

Well, let's think about this for a minute.

If Superman had turned his attention away from Zod for even a second, what do you think would have happened?

Zod would have raced off, and killed a bunch of people.

Right?

So, basically, what I'm getting from you is that you felt the film wasn't even violent enough. You actually wanted to force Superman to feel the agony of going to save one person, and then being faced with the reality that his distraction cost the lives of many, many more.

Go get the novel. It might make you feel better. In the book, Clark is very angsty over the death toll, and tries to check for survivors as he's fighting.

And just so you know, Superman did not snap Zod's neck for "just one family". He snapped Zod's neck because he knew without a doubt that Zod was too dangerous to the people of earth. Not just four people...but 7 billion people.

I fail to see how Superman killing Zod (which he does in the comics too, so stop whining that he killed someone) was somehow Clark being heartless.

Just a general note to all fans of comic books:

If you go into a movie with preconceived notions of who and what you think the character should be, prepare to be disappointed.

The movies are not going to retell the same stories over and over. They are going to change the stories, they are going to change the characters, particularly to fit into our current circumstances.

Instead of deciding before you go into a film what your idealized vision would be, allow the creators to share their vision with you. You will be happier for it, and you may even learn to see your beloved characters from a totally new perspective.

 

[Drewbee87]

Well, let's think about this for a minute.

If Superman had turned his attention away from Zod for even a second, what do you think would have happened?

Zod would have raced off, and killed a bunch of people.

Right?

So, basically, what I'm getting from you is that you felt the film wasn't even violent enough. You actually wanted to force Superman to feel the agony of going to save one person, and then being faced with the reality that his distraction cost the lives of many, many more.

Go get the novel. It might make you feel better. In the book, Clark is very angsty over the death toll, and tries to check for survivors as he's fighting.

And just so you know, Superman did not snap Zod's neck for "just one family". He snapped Zod's neck because he knew without a doubt that Zod was too dangerous to the people of earth. Not just four people...but 7 billion people.

I fail to see how Superman killing Zod (which he does in the comics too, so stop whining that he killed someone) was somehow Clark being heartless.

Just a general note to all fans of comic books:

If you go into a movie with preconceived notions of who and what you think the character should be, prepare to be disappointed.

The movies are not going to retell the same stories over and over. They are going to change the stories, they are going to change the characters, particularly to fit into our current circumstances.

Instead of deciding before you go into a film what your idealized vision would be, allow the creators to share their vision with you. You will be happier for it, and you may even learn to see your beloved characters from a totally new perspective.

Um, I'm going to take this post & put it on another forum...

 

[dnno1]

 

[misslane38]

Sorry, but one thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. Choosing not to kill someone whether they are evil or not does not mean you are putting their lives over innocents.

Sure, it does. If Superman didn't kill Zod, then the trapped family would have died. Superman would have chosen to save Zod and is his own "morality" instead of choosing to save a family from being murdered. If the only way to stop the homicidal neo-Nazi who killed Heather Heyer yesterday would have been to shoot him, then that is moral thing to do. It's the heroic thing to do. The ideal, of course is to always look for a non-lethal solution, but sometimes one doesn't have any other options. Perhaps hindsight and deep study could eventually provide a course of action that would have given Superman a way out of killing Zod, but Superman is not a god. He's not perfect, omniscient, and omnipresent. He cannot know all things and be all things. Superman can only do his best to save people and make the world a better place. And if you think that letting Zod kill that family would have been more morally palatable than Superman killing Zod, then I don't know what to say.

He didn't really seem to care too much about sparing innocent lives from Zod's when they were crushing through Metropolis, which surely resulted in the loss of innocents, when he apparently had the power to snap his neck and stop him much earlier.

Didn't care? He was trying his best. Superman had only just learned how to fly and had never been in a fight in his life. Superman didn't snap Zod's neck earlier because he had a plan to send all of the Kryptonians away without killing anyone. He was trying to find another way, but when that way wasn't working, he decided to end Zod's life. He tried your way, and it didn't work. And it is important to try, but when your best isn't good enough, when another way isn't preserving life, then a hero has to make a judgment call. That's why Superman killed Zod.

 

[Herofan]

I don't have a problem with the concept in itself but it felt fairly random and forced, not really justified, in the film.

 

[misslane38]

I don't have a problem with the concept in itself but it felt fairly random and forced, not really justified, in the film.

In the film, the concept that is presented is whether to kill one man to protect an innocent family. No other viable options were presented or observable. Superman kills in Superman II starring Christopher Reeve, and that death has even less justification.

 

[BH/HHH]

In the film, the concept that is presented is whether to kill one man to protect an innocent family. No other viable options were presented or observable. Superman kills in Superman II starring Christopher Reeve, and that death has even less justification.

Exactly, in the original SII they were turned human aswell so he basically kills defenceless people. They really should have left in that Artic Police scene in SII.

In MOS Zod will go on and probably kill, kill and kill again, no prison will hold him, there's no such thing as Kryptonite yet. The only option was for Clark to kill him. He didn't want to but he had to. It wasn't random not was it forced at all, Herofan is simply wrong.

 

[Herofan]

But a lot of the villains Superman would face would want to and try to kill and kill and kill again (and realistically of course that would include families) so as depicted it doesn't feel like really exceptional circumstances; I guess you're right that a prison wouldn't hold him but that can also apply to a lot of supervillains. And Superman could have got him away and then tried again to send him to the Phantom Zone.