So wat was so bad???

[Human Torch]

I think a lot of people just need to be less defensive about liking bad movies. Just accept that some of the movies you like are bad. There's nothing wrong with it. I like some bad movies. Pretty much everyone does. Trying to defend a ****** movie just makes you look like an idiot.

Well,that's kinda what I was trying to say about B&R.I try to except each film for what it was trying to accomplish.Most people loath B&R because that's not the Batman they wanted.It got so far removed from the Keaton Batman it wasn't really in the same realm anymore.But I look at it for what it trying to be (Adam West's Batman on acid) and judge it on that account.It's not really a case of if a movie is "bad" or not.It's all subjective.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I also hate the portrayal of the F4 as "celebrities".

That's quite true to the comics, though.

If anything, the new movie will provide a nice contrast. Light and goofy vs. gritty and serious. Then we can try and find a compromise.

 

[ThatDamnNinja]

That's quite true to the comics, though.

If anything, the new movie will provide a nice contrast. Light and goofy vs. gritty and serious. Then we can try and find a compromise.

I don't know if we WILL be able to find a compromise, though. Look at Ang Lee's Hulk vs. MCU Hulk. Ang Lee's Hulk was overly ambitious and too experimental and tried too many weird things that didn't work. TIH went in the complete opposite direction, and made a straight "stupid action movie".

The best possible version of a solo Hulk movie is almost certainly in the direct center of the two, but because both attempts underwhelmed critics and didn't do great at the box office, we might never get it, and everyone's bought into this theory "well Hulk just doesn't work as a solo character!", even though both existing Hulk movies' artistic failures were completely different.

The best possible Fantastic Four movie would have a light and airy touch, family comedy, a "gee whiz!" sci-fi element, and actual stakes and seriousness. But since the first two movies failed, they're going in the polar opposite direction tonally. If it succeeds, we'll only ever get gritty F4 for the foreseeable future, and if it fails, we'll all come up with some BS reason for why Fantastic Four just doesn't work on film.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The big problem I had with the original Fantastic Four films is that they weren't 'Fantastic' enough. Just in terms of scale and the characters themselves, they were a lot more down-to-earth than it really should have been for a series based on a group of scientific space explorers. This is especially true of the villains, Doom and Galactus. Only Johnny Storm and Silver Surfer really retained the spirit of the comics.

With the reboot, they are taking a film that was already too far on the side of realism and instead of reversing course, they are going even further down that same path. They need to get bigger, not smaller.

 

[spidermanJLA!~]

That's quite true to the comics, though.

If anything, the new movie will provide a nice contrast. Light and goofy vs. gritty and serious. Then we can try and find a compromise.

Really? Like F4 in the tabloids? That makes it a little better I guess.

The big problem I had with the original Fantastic Four films is that they weren't 'Fantastic' enough. Just in terms of scale and the characters themselves, they were a lot more down-to-earth than it really should have been for a series based on a group of scientific space explorers. This is especially true of the villains, Doom and Galactus. Only Johnny Storm and Silver Surfer really retained the spirit of the comics.

With the reboot, they are taking a film that was already too far on the side of realism and instead of reversing course, they are going even further down that same path. They need to get bigger, not smaller.

Agreed. The whole found footage gimmick was a red flag to me. I want them flying through the Negative Zone on a bright blue Fantasticar, with Reed having off the chart scientific scales while Dr. Doom tracks them down in his vast Latverian Mansion while Silver Surfer causes anomalies all over the place.

 

[DrCosmic]

I think a lot of people just need to be less defensive about liking bad movies. Just accept that some of the movies you like are bad. There's nothing wrong with it. I like some bad movies. Pretty much everyone does. Trying to defend a ****** movie just makes you look like an idiot.

This. Especially when it comes to trying to criticize others for disliking bad films. I liked the FF films, especially the second one. I loved Catwoman, and Elektra, and Lost in Space and Josie and the Pussycats and tons of really bad stuff, but if someone goes through and lists the problems, I'm not going to say 'well you're just nitpicking' or 'you didn't want to like it.' I just talk more loudly about the stuff I loved about it.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

This. Especially when it comes to trying to criticize others for disliking bad films. I liked the FF films, especially the second one. I loved Catwoman, and Elektra, and Lost in Space and Josie and the Pussycats and tons of really bad stuff, but if someone goes through and lists the problems, I'm not going to say 'well you're just nitpicking' or 'you didn't want to like it.' I just talk more loudly about the stuff I loved about it.

I completely understand where you are coming from here. Too many people take criticisms of films they like personally and are unwilling to accept when a film they like isn't very popular.

 

[Loki882]

Let's see here:

Daredevil-I actually really like the director's cut and think that it's genuinely a good movie (the theatrical version was butchered in editing). There are a few things that don't work in either version though, like the stupid playground fight and I still think that Jennifer Garner (who I really like as an actress overall) was miscast as Elektra.

Spider-Man 3-As others have said, they tried to cram way too much into one movie. They tried to do three main villains and as a result none of them got the screentime or development that they needed. This is especially disappointing in the case of Harry since they had done a really good job of bulding up to his fall into villainy in the first two films, and then they completely dropped the ball in this one. Venom and Eddie Brock were done horribly, the Stacy's didn't even need to be there (they were pointless), Sandman killing Uncle Ben was a stupid and pointless retcon, MJ was terrible once again, there were jarring tonal shifts, and of course emo Peter. It was just a mess.

Fantastic Four-This one's biggest sin is being unbelievably boring. The whole plot being centered around them trying to lose their powers was pointless since we knew going in that that was never going to happen. Plus, most of the movie was them just in a bulding together where hijinks ensue. You might as well have named it "the Fantastic sitcom." And then Dr. Doom, one of the coolest and most interesting villains in comics, was portrayed terribly which didn't help either. In addition, Jessica Alba was horribly miscast as Sue Storm.

Fantastic Four 2-Some of the same problems as before. Sue and Doom are somehow, and I don't how it's even possible, done WORSE in this movie than in the first one. The military are depicted as a bunch of trigger-happy idiots who hate the FF but trust Dr. Doom, and there's no good explanation as to WHY. Galactus being a giant cloud in space that doesn't even talk was lame. Silver Surfer, who's name is in the freaking title, only briefly tells us his backstory instead of them actually showing it. That was a mistake. And then the Surfer is somehow able to destroy Galactus by himself with one shot, no just no.

X-Men 3-Much like SM 3, they tried to cram too much into one movie. The DPS and the Gifted arc could each make for a good movie on their own, or possibly two in the case of DPS. But cramming them into one movie, along with another Magneto plot as well, was just too much. They keep talking about how Jean is so important and dangerous, yet for most of the movie she just stands around staring off into space doing nothing. Also Magneto never really spells out WHAT exactly he's going to use her for. Characters like Cyclops, Rogue, and Mystique are disposed of really quickly and cheaply because they needed to give all of the new character screentime, and then they didn't even develop them either, which makes it doubly disappointing. Angel does so little that he didn't even need to be in the movie. Certain characters are depicted as being ooc stupid, most notably Magneto. Characters like Juggernaut, PINO, Callisto, etc are portrayed horribly. And finally, for a movie called "The Last Stand," the stakes didn't feel high enough. They're trying to stop Magneto from destroying a cure that MAY become a problem years down the road. He's not threatening mutants as a whole, or even humanity for that matter. He's going after a core group of like ten people. X2 felt more like a "last stand" than this movie did. There they were trying to stop Stryker from KILLING every single mutant on the planet, IMMEDIATELY!! And the Magneto turned things around and tried to kill every HUMAN on the planet. The stakes felt much higher there. It was just monumentally disappointing as a finale to this trilogy.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Sometimes it's the "trendy" thing to do.Nobody wants to be seen supporting a "bad" movie that the "cool kids" have deemed a failure.No one wants to be "that guy" that bad mouths a film getting rave reviews.(Granted there are always a handful of contrarians.)And that's where you get posters lining up like little lemmings behind the popular opinion on message boards.

Hit the nail on the head. I've seen plenty change their opinions to the vocal majority's view of a movie whether it be liking a movie they didn't like because others do or hating a movie they liked as that's the popular opinion.

The big problem I had with the original Fantastic Four films is that they weren't 'Fantastic' enough. Just in terms of scale and the characters themselves, they were a lot more down-to-earth than it really should have been for a series based on a group of scientific space explorers. This is especially true of the villains, Doom and Galactus. Only Johnny Storm and Silver Surfer really retained the spirit of the comics.

With the reboot, they are taking a film that was already too far on the side of realism and instead of reversing course, they are going even further down that same path. They need to get bigger, not smaller.

They'll be doing that in the sequel. Thats the Fox formula. Look at the jump in scale between Rise of The Planet of The Apes to Dawn and First Class to DOFP

 

[CaptainWagner]

As others have said, Spider-man 3 and X3's biggest flaws were trying to cram too many unrelated plotlines into one movie. The Fantastic Fours mainly suffered from poor characterization and a lack of "Fantastic"-ness.

And hopefully this doesn't discredit my whole opinion, but I actually liked Vinnie Jones as the Juggernaut.

 

[DrCosmic]

Hit the nail on the head. I've seen plenty change their opinions to the vocal majority's view of a movie whether it be liking a movie they didn't like because others do or hating a movie they liked as that's the popular opinion.

Or people just came to understand a movie they liked opening night sucks, or that a movie they didn't like had some awesome stuff in it. -shrug-

 

[Orba]

Yeah there are plenty of films that you like but with time and as the genre has evolved when you go back and look at them you realise how bad they were, you just didn't notice at the time as you were happy just to get anything at all.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Or people just came to understand a movie they liked opening night sucks, or that a movie they didn't like had some awesome stuff in it. -shrug-

That certainly happens for a portion. Usually a week or so after seeing it and it permeates in the mind.

Certainly there are those who grow tired of the consensus and change their opinion to fit in

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

They'll be doing that in the sequel. Thats the Fox formula. Look at the jump in scale between Rise of The Planet of The Apes to Dawn and First Class to DOFP

Unless you mean the next reboot, not a chance.

1) If FF is unsuccessful, there won't be a sequel.
2) If FF is successful, they aren't going to tear everything up and go in the COMPLETE OPPOSITE direction.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Kinberg has said they'll be going bigger in the sequel. So they must be writing it so it can progress that way

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Kinberg has said they'll be going bigger in the sequel. So they must be writing it so it can progress that way

Bigger than the first means absolutely nothing.

 

[Human Torch]

Or people just came to understand a movie they liked opening night sucks, or that a movie they didn't like had some awesome stuff in it. -shrug-

But again,film being subjective,the question originally posed is "What is so bad about these films?" And none of the films mentioned in the OP "sucks".Still,because they didn't rise to the occasion (so to speak) people put them on the same level as Catwoman.

TBH,I've never been able to sit through Catwoman.Perhaps there are some redeeming features in that one as well.I turned it on halfway through one night.And there was a scene of her telling some party goers to keep it down,which escalated into some kind of "action scene"(complete with her jumping on a bar,spraying people with a hose.) and it pretty much told me all I needed know about the film.

 

[DrCosmic]

But again,film being subjective,the question originally posed is "What is so bad about these films?" And none of the films mentioned in the OP "sucks".Still,because they didn't rise to the occasion (so to speak) people put them on the same level as Catwoman.

TBH,I've never been able to sit through Catwoman.Perhaps there are some redeeming features in that one as well.I turned it on halfway through one night.And there was a scene of her telling some party goers to keep it down,which escalated into some kind of "action scene"(complete with her jumping on a bar,spraying people with a hose.) and it pretty much told me all I needed know about the film.

None of them suck to you, that's fine, but you still don't have to place to label people who believe otherwise. People don't put them on the same level as Catwoman, but they are in the same category of low-quality superhero films.

Catwoman is a horrible movie. If that's too subjectve: "Catwoman's story, visuals, sound and acting components are far less interesting, engaging and entertaining than the story, visual, audio and acting components of other similar films for the typical western culture observer, barring outside devotion to the components." I can go on about the flaws in the film's execution, the crazy slow parts, the wooden performances from actors who are much better than what the movie would have you believe. I also love it. I love her fighting style, I think the mythology they adapted from Batman Returns was slick, I like the old crazy cat lady, I think she's sexy as heck, and the way they used a B:TAS storyline for her was pretty slick too, and then, y'know, there's Sharon Stone, and an actual twist, iirc.

If I start a thread of love for the Catwoman movie, I really won't get many, if any replies. If I start a love thread for, say Ang Lee's Hulk, there's replies. Same with SM3, X3, and so forth. These films have people that like them... there just aren't many, there never were, even opening weekend. They aren't hiding, they haven't been brainwashed, there just aren't many of them... and that's okay.

That certainly happens for a portion. Usually a week or so after seeing it and it permeates in the mind.

Certainly there are those who grow tired of the consensus and change their opinion to fit in

Are there? No one I know has ever copped to such an experience, it seems like an accusation more than something someone has ever done. Perhaps people begin to adopt the values of their community over time, including the value of the flaws in a film. Or people respond differently to a second viewing whenever that is. Or they have experiences which cause them to view the film differently.

 

[Mace Dolex]

HBO was just happened to be showing the first Fantastic Four movie and watching it again it's now really that bad of a film, now I'm noticing that the biggest error of it is that because this was the first of a series of FF it drags because as happens with all first film franchises we need a setup in order to get to know the characters and the only real big action sequence sadly happens to at the end.

Aside from that the cast was perfectly cast (yeah even Jessica Alba), but Doctor Doom could've been greatly improved to make him more threatening.

 

[Bayne]

I won't discuss the FF, since I honestly can't even remember them anymore. The only thing I can think of there is that Doom didn't impress and there were some issues with Mr. Fantastic's accent.

For Spiderman 3, I actually say I enjoyed it more than the first two, but that's not a compliment really, since I hate the first two. Things I liked better about 3 were the slightly more likable villains (Venom not included) and... I guess that was it. I've always hated Mcguire as Spiderman, and he was potentially at his worst in Spiderman 3 (Look at him dance, that confident man!). The venom story was weird and forced and the way it was fitted into the story (Peter Parker losing his girlfriend, again) was predictable and boring.

For X-men 3, I honestly enjoy it, too. But I can't at all say it's a good movie. The dialogue alone was *awful*. 'In chess the pawns go first!' (I really felt like they had completely forgotten who Magneto was by the end of this movie). The pacing was very rushed. The cure is announced and suddenly its 'I think this!' - 'Well, I think this.' - 'Quick, everyone pick a side, oh wait, we have to stop jean and magneto, there's no time left'. It did some good stuff (casting Grammar and Page being the best part, but also that final lineup at the end was great) but it was generally a bad movie. I mean, seriously, we're talking about a Hollywood 'blockbuster' that couldn't even keep the time of day straight.

As for Daredevil, I honestly can't help you there. I liked it a lot, and I still watch it almost as much as the modern marvel films. Sure, Bullseye was over the top in a way that didn't quite mesh with the dark tone of everything else, but that never really bothered me. I always assumed that (since I'm not a huge fan of DD from the comics) the major issues must have been with what fans were expecting out of the characterization, but all this new love for the director's cut would seem to refute that. Personally, I hated the director's cut. The studio made the right call cutting that stuff out - I don't go to a superhero movie to watch almost 20 minutes of courtroom drama about an irritating punk who has no real relationship to the story whatsoever.

 

[Loki882]

Except that Matt Murdock is a freaking LAWYER! He works in a LAW FIRM, and his best friend is also a lawyer. "Courtroom drama" is part of the deal. Also, that "punks" whole sub-plot explains HOW Kingpin ends up being exposed (which is a plothole in the theatrical version), fixes other plot-holes, and explains Ben Urich's decision at the end. But the studio apparently went "drama, character/plot development, interpersonal relationship, nah. Let's just give um sex and action, that's cool right?"

 

[Human Torch]

Eh,the courtroom stuff was boring.The opening scene with the rapist was enough.It's a movie,not a TV series.All that Coolio crap bogged things down.

The part with Matt driving the car (or "trying" to) with the crooked cop inside was the worst offender.My only problem with the film is no Bullseye costume.Seriously,why have the character say he wants a costume,and not put him in the costume?

 

[Spooderman]

At the risk of being attacked I'm going to ask a question that has been plaguing me but then too afraid to ask...

Ok so here goes>>>

As far as Superhero Marvel movies go..

What was so wrong with:

Daredevil

I've only seen the Director's Cut, which I thought was pretty good, so I can't really explain. I guess Ben Affleck was fairly bland at times, and removing the subplot about the dead hooker probably hurt the story.

Spider-man 3

Sandman being Uncle Ben's killer, Harry getting amnesia, the dance scene, were the weakest points.

I honestly don't have a problem with Venom, except Brock praying for God to kill Peter.

Fantastic Four

Fantastic Four 2

Haven't seen those

X-men 3

It was way to short for a superhero movie with an ensemble cast.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The courtoom stuff and Matt's investigation was my favorite part of the movie. Well, that and the interactions between Matt and the Catholic priest. I really hope that the Netflix series remembers that he's as much an attorney as he is a vigilante.

 

[gildedmuse]

I tend to watch a lot of comic book movies with my mom, as she loves going to the theater but hates going alone and we typically don't like the same kind of films at all. As she puts it, she thinks the big problem with action films is there is way too much plot: it needs to be 90% action and the rest they can fill with the other stuff. On the other hand, I am a sucker for characters and would happily watch a movie just about Tony Stark, no suit required. Most action films are just not my thing. Since I grew up a geek, though, I make a huge exception for CBMs although even then a lot of them I've only seen because I'd call up mom and she'd be like, isnt there a new super hero film out?

We saw DD in theaters but to be honest I remember almost nothing about it. However, recently we've watched the MCU films together and we both watch AoS so I mentioned to her that they were bringing DD to Netflicks. She totally remembered the movie and couldn't believe they would bring him of all the superheroes to TV. "He was so boring, they should do some other hero instead."

It did kind of make me wonder what went so wrong with the film that neither of us liked it. I've almost considered rewatching it, honestly, just because I honestly don't remember a single thing from the movie. Not even the horrible playground scene every one talks about. I guess my biggest "complaint" about the film would be how forgettable it was. I remember more about the FF film for God's sake, if only because I thought Evans made a good Johnny Storm.