Space travel, and the possibilities of interstellar migration

[KalMart]

Well, you can be even more generous than that. Let’s assume there are 200 billion separate civilizations in the Universe. That’s equal to the number of galaxies. But then... that means that, statistically, we’re the allocation for the Milky Way - no one else in the neighborhood.

The problem isn’t the high possible/plausible number of intelligent species - it’s the sheer size of space.

We could maybe get lucky and target a group of four Earth-like planets that are 'only' a few million light years apart from eachother.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, you can be even more generous than that. Let’s assume there are 200 billion separate civilizations in the Universe. That’s equal to the number of galaxies. But then... that means that, statistically, we’re the allocation for the Milky Way - no one else in the neighborhood.

The problem isn’t the high possible/plausible number of intelligent species - it’s the sheer size of space.

One would imagine that in so much emptiness and silence, that it would actually be easier to find other people "talking".

I was rather amused by Stephen Hawking's claims of alien marauders hearing our transmissions and coming to Earth for our resources... What resources, I have no idea.

 

[NateHevens]

We cold maybe get lucky and target a group of four Earth-like planets that are 'only' a few million light years apart from eachother.

Possibly. But again, they'd have to be enculturated to accept disappointment...

And what if all four don't pan out?

I don't think warring with an indigenous species is worth-it (here's looking at you, European colonizers of the new world )....

One would imagine that in so much emptiness and silence, that it would actually be easier to find other people "talking".

I was rather amused by Stephen Hawking's claims of alien marauders hearing our transmissions and coming to Earth for our resources... What resources, I have no idea.

Again, our universe is extremely young; practically a baby. Civilizations like ours are probably a recent thing (relative to the history of the universe, of course). I'd bet we haven't existed long enough to be in contact with another civilization. Maybe we need to be around for another few thousand, or million, years before it happens.

 

[KalMart]

Money can't change the laws, but without money we wouldn't have atomic weapons and energy. We wouldn't have half the laws we have now, because we wouldn't have been able to study them.

You're right, that some inventions will come about regardless. But some really do need serious cash backing them.

You're not getting this.....money is definitely important for research but the major hurdles facing us physically and cosmically are there regardless of how much money we spend or dedicate. Things that on just the theoretical level are major obstacles, never mind the money to make it practical. Money and research won't make stars closer to eachother, or galaxies easier to navigate or cross. If we were somehow able to make that so...then there;s be no reason to migrate as we could probably keep our sun from dying too.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't think people are appreciating how blind we are. We can't even tell if there are planets in the Alpha Centauri system. For all we know, there could be aliens sitting there, watching us.

There could be an Earth-like planet a dozen lightyears from us, and we would have no way of knowing (again, Tau Ceti, which has a very sun-like star).

 

[KalMart]

Possibly. But again, they'd have to be enculturated to accept disappointment...

And what if all four don't pan out?

I don't think warring with an indigenous species is worth-it (here's looking at you, original colonizers of the new world )....

And the possibility of massive changes during the millions of years it would take just to get there.

Yes, morally the 'right' thing to do would be to respect their space/ownership and move on...and just say sorry, we'll all have to wait another million years or so. But chances are......

 

[KalMart]

I don't think people are appreciating how blind we are. We can't even tell if there are planets in the Alpha Centauri system. For all we know, there could be aliens sitting there, watching us.

There could be an Earth-like planet a dozen lightyears from us, and we would have no way of knowing (again, Tau Ceti, which has a very sun-like star).

You're not appreciating how blind and idealistic you're being to the nature of obstacles that we face. If we were to see somehow see that there are one thousand Earth-like planets just 50 light years away...a tremendous difficulty would still exists in our getting there.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Possibly. But again, they'd have to be enculturated to accept disappointment...

And what if all four don't pan out?

I don't think warring with an indigenous species is worth-it (here's looking at you, European colonizers of the new world )....



Again, our universe is extremely young; practically a baby. Civilizations like ours are probably a recent thing (relative to the history of the universe, of course). I'd bet we haven't existed long enough to be in contact with another civilization. Maybe we need to be around for another few thousand, or million, years before it happens.

No intelligent alien species would make first contact with us. It would be like you running up to a bunch of club-wielding neanderthals to trade niceties. Except replace club with atomic weapon.

 

[NateHevens]

I don't think people are appreciating how blind we are. We can't even tell if there are planets in the Alpha Centauri system. For all we know, there could be aliens sitting there, watching us.

There could be an Earth-like planet a dozen lightyears from us, and we would have no way of knowing (again, Tau Ceti, which has a very sun-like star).

And you aren't appreciating just how much we do know, and the obstacles in our way.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again; traveling faster than the speed of light most likely requires breaking the laws of nature and physics. There is simply no precedent for this in human history, and for all we know right now, is completely impossible.

And the possibility of massive changes during the millions of years it would take just to get there.

Yes, morally the 'right' thing to do would be to respect their space/ownership and move on...and just say sorry, we'll all have to wait another million years or so. But chances are......

Don't depress me...

No intelligent alien species would make first contact with us. It would be like you running up to a bunch of club-wielding neanderthals to trade niceties. Except replace club with atomic weapon.

Do you really think our nuclear weapons would pose any kind of threat to the aliens? They'd very likely have weapons that would render our hydrogen bomb about as useful as a wooden club.

It'd be a lot more like me using a nuclear warhead to wipe out a population of club-wielding neanderthals.

No... forget a nuclear warhead... I'm not afraid of the clubs if I have a gun.

A civilization traipsing around the universe won't really care about our weapons, which are quite primitive in comparison.

Don't suffer from anthropocentricism, especially as it concerns alien species. We are nothing to a civilization that can travel the universe. Nothing at all.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You're not appreciating how blind and idealistic you're being to the nature of obstacles that we face. If we were to see somehow see that there are one thousand Earth-like planets just 50 light years away...a tremendous difficulty would still exists in our getting there.

Yes, but it wouldn't take a million years.

 

[KalMart]

Yes, but it wouldn't take a million years.

For it to take only a thousand years would be more than difficult. And even if it took only 200 years...what good will that be if we can't make it past 50?

 

[Thundercrack85]

And you aren't appreciating just how much we do know, and the obstacles in our way.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again; traveling faster than the speed of light most likely requires breaking the laws of nature and physics. There is simply no precedent for this in human history, and for all we know right now, is completely impossible.

That's been true about almost everything we've done. Including a lot of things in this past century. Remember no human will ever break the sound barrier?

Which was true. Humans couldn't break the sound barrier. At least not until they built the device that could.

I am talking in layman's terms. But I am a layman. And so is everyone here (I'm guessing).

 

[NateHevens]

That's been true about almost everything we've done. Including a lot of things in this past century. Remember no human will ever break the sound barrier?

Which was true. Humans couldn't break the sound barrier. At least not until they built the device that could.

I am talking in layman's terms. But I am a layman. And so is everyone here (I'm guessing).

Except breaking the sound barrier didn't require breaking the laws of nature and physics. Spacetime doesn't warp itself to maintain the speed of sound. The only barrier we had to break there was speed. The barriers to break the lightspeed limit are many times more and many times more complex.

Let me repeat this:

Spacetime warps itself to maintain the speed of light.

You need that a third time?

Okay.

Spacetime warps itself to maintain the speed of light.

Getting around that is currently next to impossible.

You need to sit back and think about what that means. You aren't appreciating the scope of the problem here. Breaking the sound barrier was as easy as slicing bread in comparison. Hell... we'll learn to mine the Sun before we learn break the laws of nature and physics.

Also, I added more stuff to that post. Just in case you missed it.

 

[KalMart]

Don't depress me...

As you alluded...we may have to prepare ourselves for things that aren't so nice.

 

[Thundercrack85]

And you aren't appreciating just how much we do know, and the obstacles in our way.

I've already said this, but I'll say it again; traveling faster than the speed of light most likely requires breaking the laws of nature and physics. There is simply no precedent for this in human history, and for all we know right now, is completely impossible.



Don't depress me...





Do you really think our nuclear weapons would pose any kind of threat to the aliens? They'd very likely have weapons that would render our hydrogen bomb about as useful as a wooden club.

It'd be a lot more like me using a nuclear warhead to wipe out a population of club-wielding neanderthals.

No... forget a nuclear warhead... I'm not afraid of the clubs if I have a gun.

A civilization traipsing around the universe won't really care about our weapons, which are quite primitive in comparison.

Don't suffer from anthropocentricism, especially as it concerns alien species. We are nothing to a civilization that can travel the universe. Nothing at all.

I agree and disagree. True aliens may have a way to turn nukes off. I was using that as a metaphor. But a rock to the back of the head is a rock to the back of the head. Even a dumb animal can kill you.

Maybe they've seen our movies, and know that whenever the guy walks out of the flying saucer he gets shot by some idiot.

 

[raybia]

Without discussing and debating the science, I'm going out on a limb and say that eventually Humankind will colonize the moon, Mars, and maybe other planets or the moons of planets in the solar system. After that we will colonize our region of the galaxy.

There may even come a time after the Earth is no longer inhabitable that Humankind even forgets our Earthly origins.

 

[chamber-music]

It's not that we like it so much, it's that we're so good at it. No wonder aliens don't want to talk to us. They've seen what we've done to each other just for looking a bit different or religious beliefs, imagine what would happen when a new species that's more advanced than us shows up.

I think that on an even technology scale we could take pretty much anything.

Plus there are far to many people who profit from wars and conflicts.

All those military contracts, arms manufactors,

 

[Thundercrack85]

Except breaking the sound barrier didn't require breaking the laws of nature and physics. Spacetime doesn't warp itself to maintain the speed of sound. The only barrier we had to break there was speed. The barriers to break the lightspeed limit are many times more and many times more complex.

Let me repeat this:

Spacetime warps itself to maintain the speed of light.

You need that a third time?

Okay.

Spacetime warps itself to maintain the speed of light.

Getting around that is currently next to impossible.

You need to sit back and think about what that means. You aren't appreciating the scope of the problem here. Breaking the sound barrier was as easy as slicing bread in comparison. Hell... we'll learn to mine the Sun before we learn break the laws of nature and physics.

Also, I added more stuff to that post. Just in case you missed it.

I know it's more complex. But every impossibility humans have faced has been increasingly complex, and they have all become possible.

What's impossible to us, will seem amusing to some future generation. That's how it goes. But don't take my word for it, just wait. Well, probably not for FTL travel. That'll take a few generations. But to some other human impossibility.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I know it's more complex. But every impossibility humans have faced has been increasingly complex, and they have all become possible.

What's impossible to us, will seem amusing to some future generation. That's how it goes. But don't take my word for it, just wait. Well, probably not for FTL travel. That'll take a few generations. But to some other human impossibility.

Superluminal travel has been solved. We know how it works. We also know that because of those parameters, it's impossible.

To accelerate something with mass, to c requires either one of two things: either infinite energy, or infinite time. Since infinite energy cannot be harnessed and infinite time is redundant in retrospect, it cannot happen.

The Theory of Relativity was not just accepted on a whim. It changed everyones view on reality, it defined everything that ever has, or will exist. It has been scrutinised relentlessly and always comes out on top. Superluminal travel, just cannot happen.

 

[Thundercrack85]

So, you're confident that we've reached the apex of knowledge in physics, and that we fully understand the limitations of the universe?

Good to know.

So are all those physicists, talking about bending time and space talking out of their ass, or what's that all about?

 

[chamber-music]

We may not be able to breaking the laws of nature and physics but we may be able to bend them.

I think it was Einstein who came up with Photons Being Everywhere at Once since time has essentially stopped for them.

There is still a ton of stuff we don't understand about particle physics.

It's not that anything's 'impossible', it's just
that we have to be prepared for it not to be as 'rosy' as we make it out to be...it never is. Yes, we can now work in a station that orbits the earth from space...but the deterioration on our muscles and bones being in space is rapid and drastically reduces the feasibility of more off-Earth infrastructure without us adapting our own physiologies. That's just one of many realities beyond just money and energy that we'd have to deal with. One big key towards optimizing our technology for space travel is reducing what's needed to maintain earth-like conditions. That'd be easier if we didn't need them as much.

Ultimately...even with more technology and capability, the biggest thing holding humans back from space travel will be the fact that they're humans....evolved and made to live on Earth. Change that and then the possibilities really open up.


The money we've spent on defense hasn't made it more difficult o costly to actually get payloads into space. And hard as it may be to swallow, if anything will help us discover an energy/propulsion source more efficient than rockets for achieving orbit...it'll probably com out of military research/tech.

We may not need to adapt our own physiology if we can our enviorments to suit human life. It may be possible to build a gravity device.

 

[NateHevens]

I know it's more complex. But every impossibility humans have faced has been increasingly complex, and they have all become possible.

What's impossible to us, will seem amusing to some future generation. That's how it goes. But don't take my word for it, just wait. Well, probably not for FTL travel. That'll take a few generations. But to some other human impossibility.

You aren't appreciating the scope of the problem. You really aren't. I don't think you understand what it means to break the laws of nature and physics. It means breaking the very things that allow us to exist in the first place. It means violating the very limits that allow us to have a reality. This is most likely what's required to break the lightspeed barrier.

Every single innovation, every single breakthrough, that humanity has ever created, has been done within the confines of the laws of nature and physics. We have never broken them, and there are many scientists... a majority, in fact, who think we can't ever break them.

Flying, breaking the sound barrier... these were always probable. They didn't require breaking any natural laws. Spacetime doesn't work to maintain the speed of sound, and "defying gravity" is just a turn-of-phrase. Flying in airplanes isn't defying gravity at all... it's using gravity.

At the risk of making spacetime sound conscious (which it is not), spacetime actually acts to keep the speed of light constant. It will do everything it can to make sure that nothing can go faster than light, usually warping itself. Light can only go as fast as it can go because it has no mass... actually getting up to the speed of light requires an infinite amount of energy. If something as small as a neutron tried to get up to the speed of light, it's mass would become infinite, and it could potentially destroy the universe.

The problem of the speed of light is nothing like breaking the sound barrier. I can't even make an analogy because there is simply no analogue to it. It simply is not a matter of speeding up. In fact, unlike breaking the sound barrier, getting faster is the worst possible way to pull it off, because that would only get you killed.

Now, admittedly, Star Trek came up with a decent idea... it's not you moving, it's the space around you. Here's the thing, though... even with every nuclear bomb invented, you would not have enough energy to pull this off. Plus, if you did, the bubble of spacetime surrounding you would heat up so much that your ship, and everyone in it, would vaporize. For the record, the level of heat we're talking about would vaporize stars.

 

[Dr.]

By definition, lightspeed is the absolute cosmic maximum. So if you want to speculate about far future/highly advanced tech, don't mention breaking the light barrier. Instead, talk "artificial space warps/worm holes." They effectively do the same thing as FTL travel - but they don’t violate any laws of physics.

 

[Thundercrack85]

That's all well and good. But what's impossible to you, must have seemed as impossible to someone imagining the sound barrier being broken in the Middle Ages... if they knew what it was. Wasn't meant to be a scientific analogy. I don't have a PhD in physics.

Breaking the universe though... that's interesting.

Still, you'd have a better chance of hitchhiking with some aliens than on one of these STL starships that takes an eon just to get to a planet.

 

[KalMart]

We may not need to adapt our own physiology if we can our enviorments to suit human life. It may be possible to build a gravity device.

But again, that would limit our destinations to closely suiting the conditions on Earth and present yet another thing that could go wrong along the way. To first better insure our survival during a very long, multigenerational trip, we need to first make ourselves best suited to life in space...not a space-bound simulation of a place that we're leaving. Like if we were to live underwater for the next thousands-millions of years, we'd be better off if we actually breathed water and lived/moved as aquatic beings.