State of Emergency: Baltimore Edition

[Teelie]

Eyewitnesses: The Baltimore Riots Didn't Start the Way You Think
Baltimore teachers and parents tell a different story from the one you've been reading in the media.
—By Sam Brodey and Jenna McLaughlin | Tue Apr. 28, 2015 6:00 PM EDT
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/04/how-baltimore-riots-began-mondawmin-purge

Given what sparked this in the first place, I would not be surprised if this was accurate.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Nope. Not true at all. Because Tamir Rice had no criminal record. And the "masses" basically treated it as if it was nothing.

I remember it was a pretty evenly split opinion on that one. One half felt that the parents shared blame in allowing him to get hold of a gun that looks real, and the cop didn't know it was fake so shot him. The other half felt that it didn't matter if the cop knew it was real, because a 12 year old boy is not menacing.

If you didn't know he was just play pretending as a thug, that looks pretty bad. That in itself is part of the problem. The gun violence being promoted as cool in music/movies. Acting out what the guys he looks up to do.

 

[Kelly]

Yeah, they are. They had a plan to create chaos and executed it to provoke a reaction and make the police look worse.

They did not have a plan. Psychologists call it "herd mentality" for a reason.

 

[The Question]

I remember it was a pretty evenly split opinion on that one. One half felt that the parents shared blame in allowing him to get hold of a gun that looks real, and the cop didn't know it was fake so shot him. The other half felt that it didn't matter if the cop knew it was real, because a 12 year old boy is not menacing.

If you didn't know he was just play pretending as a thug, that looks pretty bad. That in itself is part of the problem. The gun violence being promoted as cool in music/movies. Acting out what the guys he looks up to do.

What about the reflex assumption on the part of the cop that a twelve year old black boy was dangerous? That seems like the much bigger problem to me.

Also, kids playing with realistic looking toy guns is nothing new. Heck, it used to be the norm and incredibly ubiquitous.

Also also, don't use the word "thug."


A Brief History of the Word ‘Thug’
BY MAX KUTNER 4/29/15 AT 12:19 PM
http://www.newsweek.com/brief-history-word-thug-326595
“There was never any clear definition of what a thug was, which is why it was so attractive to the British,” Wagner says. “It allowed them to criminalize any kind of indigenous activity as being something that was inherently irrational and politically illegitimate, not different from the way it’s used today. You’re effectively describing them as having no legitimate grievances and just being hoodlums.”

 

[Kelly]

I taught 11-12 year olds for 2 years, and it wouldn't matter male or female, whatever...if I saw them walking down my street doing that, I'm going to think BIG PROBLEM.

What "use to be the norm" IS NO LONGER THE NORM.

As far as the use of the word "thug"...teenagers today see that as a plus. They write it on their knuckles, I see it on the bookcovers, their back packs, they write it on their tests just doodling, it's written in the bathrooms, on the desks, on the school itself it is in the music they love. "THUG life" is the life, it's cool. And I would almost bet money that if we could read that young 12 year old mind, "thug life" was in it, or a song, etc....and he was "playing" YES PROBABLY, pretending to be living that word that you said not to use. I've been teaching in an demographically urban school for 24 years, kids of yesterday are NOTHING like the kids of today.

 

[The Question]

I taught 11-12 year olds for 2 years, and it wouldn't matter male or female, whatever...if I saw them walking down my street doing that, I'm going to think BIG PROBLEM.

What "use to be the norm" IS NO LONGER THE NORM.

Fair enough.

That doesn't mean shooting without first assessing the situation was justified in any way. And it doesn't mean that there wasn't an inherent element of racial bias. If the kid had been white, the cop would have been more likely to tell him to put the gun down before resorting to shooting him. I know this, because studies show that cops and people in general are more likely to reflexively assume that black people are dangerous and shoot first without accurately assessing the danger:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119060/michael-brown-studies-show-racial-bias-police-shootings

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice

As far as the use of the word "thug"...teenagers today see that as a plus. They write it on their knuckles, it is in the music they love. "THUG life" is the life, it's cool. And I would almost bet money that if we could read that young 12 year old mind, "thug life" was in it, or a song, etc....and he was "playing" YES PROBABLY, pretending to be living that word that you said not to use. I've been teaching in an demographically urban school for 24 years, kids of yesterday are NOTHING like the kids of today.

What you're describing is called "reclamation." It's the same thing the LGBT community did when they reclaimed the pink triangle, a symbol of Nazi oppression, as a symbol of queer identity. It is used for empowerment within the queer community, but it would be horribly inappropriate for straight people to once again force gay men to wear it so they could be singled out in a crowd.

Similarly, brown skinned urban kids using the word "thug" to describe themselves in defiance of mainstream society is an act of establishing both personal and community identity. Using it as an insult is a slur.

 

[Greens]

Is thug really a serious slur? I mean, it's definitely not exclusively used to describe black kids. It's used to describe any sort of lawbreaker.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

What about the reflex assumption on the part of the cop that a twelve year old black boy was dangerous? That seems like the much bigger problem to me.

Also, kids playing with realistic looking toy guns is nothing new. Heck, it used to be the norm and incredibly ubiquitous.

Also also, don't use the word "thug."


A Brief History of the Word ‘Thug’
BY MAX KUTNER 4/29/15 AT 12:19 PM
http://www.newsweek.com/brief-history-word-thug-326595
“There was never any clear definition of what a thug was, which is why it was so attractive to the British,” Wagner says. “It allowed them to criminalize any kind of indigenous activity as being something that was inherently irrational and politically illegitimate, not different from the way it’s used today. You’re effectively describing them as having no legitimate grievances and just being hoodlums.”

When the cop told him 3 times and he didn't listen, the cop made the call to shoot him. Was it right? I dunno. It is pretty evenly debated. Was the kid being black and therefore more dangerous in the cops mind? I don't know. It's possible if most of the actual thugs he deals with are black. If that is the majority of criminals he sees on the streets, there is a possibility he wrongly thought of the black boy as more dangerous.

I use the word thug because that is the term used in rap/movies he was play pretending on. If he had a cowboy hat and a gun I'd say he was being playing a cowboy.

They look up to the older teens and young men who also give off that bravado. They use the thug term to identify with.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Is thug really a serious slur? I mean, it's definitely not exclusively used to describe black kids. It's used to describe any sort of lawbreaker.

Well it also applies to the "thug life" media of rap culture. It is fair to say he was playing with the gun imitating what he has seen from thug life. The rap industry, movies related to gangbangers, and actual gangbangers refer to themselves as thugs. Like I said, if he was trying to be a cowboy I'd say he was playing as a cowboy.

 

[The Question]

When the cop told him 3 times and he didn't listen, the cop made the call to shoot him. Was it right? I dunno. It is pretty evenly debated. Was the kid being black and therefore more dangerous in the cops mind? I don't know. It's possible if most of the actual thugs he deals with are black. If that is the majority of criminals he sees on the streets, there is a possibility he wrongly thought of the black boy as more dangerous.

It's also possible that he, on some level, bought into ******** stereotypes about the inherent criminality and savagery of minorities, and that's why he wrongly thought of the black boy as more dangerous.

I use the word thug because that is the term used in rap/movies he was play pretending on. If he had a cowboy hat and a gun I'd say he was being playing a cowboy.

They look up to the older teens and young men who also give off that bravado. They use the thug term to identify with.

Yes. Exactly. Segments of the urban minority youth community use the term to identify with, as an act of reclamation. Using it as an insult is wrong, and harkens back to its original use as a means of delegitimizing the political and social grievances of lower-class and minority communities.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I taught 11-12 year olds for 2 years, and it wouldn't matter male or female, whatever...if I saw them walking down my street doing that, I'm going to think BIG PROBLEM.

What "use to be the norm" IS NO LONGER THE NORM.

As far as the use of the word "thug"...teenagers today see that as a plus. They write it on their knuckles, I see it on the bookcovers, their back packs, they write it on their tests just doodling, it's written in the bathrooms, on the desks, on the school itself it is in the music they love. "THUG life" is the life, it's cool. And I would almost bet money that if we could read that young 12 year old mind, "thug life" was in it, or a song, etc....and he was "playing" YES PROBABLY, pretending to be living that word that you said not to use. I've been teaching in an demographically urban school for 24 years, kids of yesterday are NOTHING like the kids of today.

This. I actually had not read your post yet when I mentioned "thug life" either as an example. It goes to show how it has become an actual term for a certain "cool" factor to urban youth.

 

[Schlosser85]

Are we really going to play this game?

White people get called thugs all the time.

 

[The Question]

Is thug really a serious slur? I mean, it's definitely not exclusively used to describe black kids. It's used to describe any sort of lawbreaker.

It has its historical roots in British colonization of the Indian subcontinent, and is almost exclusively used to disparage non-white and lower class communities. When it is used against white lawbreakers, it is almost always used against white lawbreakers engaging in criminal behavior stereotypically associated with non-white communities.

Even if one were to argue that its use as an insult is not a slur in every context, and argument not entirely without merit, it's certainly being used as a slur in the context of what's going on in Baltimore and all of the recent police shootings of black kids.

Check out the article I posted, and decide for yourself.

 

[Kelly]

Is thug really a serious slur? I mean, it's definitely not exclusively used to describe black kids. It's used to describe any sort of lawbreaker.

Not with most of the kids I teach...

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

It's also possible that he, on some level, bought into ******** stereotypes about the inherent criminality and savagery of minorities, and that's why he wrongly thought of the black boy as more dangerous.



Yes. Exactly. Segments of the urban minority youth community use the term to identify with, as an act of reclamation. Using it as an insult is wrong, and harkens back to its original use as a means of delegitimizing the political and social grievances of lower-class and minority communities.

It's possible he would have done the same thing with a white boy having what appears to be a real gun. We aren't in his mind, so I guess we could presume too much. Pointing out that he was play pretending to be a thug is far from an insult. It's what he was doing.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

It has its historical roots in British colonization of the Indian subcontinent, and is almost exclusively used to disparage non-white and lower class communities. When it is used against white lawbreakers, it is almost always used against white lawbreakers engaging in criminal behavior stereotypically associated with non-white communities.

Even if one were to argue that its use as an insult is not a slur in every context, and argument not entirely without merit, it's certainly being used as a slur in the context of what's going on in Baltimore and all of the recent police shootings of black kids.

Check out the article I posted, and decide for yourself.

The historical name doesn't matter. These kids are identifying themselves as thugs. That's the term THEY are using

 

[Kelly]

Fair enough.

That doesn't mean shooting without first assessing the situation was justified in any way. And it doesn't mean that there wasn't an inherent element of racial bias. If the kid had been white, the cop would have been more likely to tell him to put the gun down before resorting to shooting him. I know this, because studies show that cops and people in general are more likely to reflexively assume that black people are dangerous and shoot first without accurately assessing the danger:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119060/michael-brown-studies-show-racial-bias-police-shootings

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice





What you're describing is called "reclamation." It's the same thing the LGBT community did when they reclaimed the pink triangle, a symbol of Nazi oppression, as a symbol of queer identity. It is used for empowerment within the queer community, but it would be horribly inappropriate for straight people to once again force gay men to wear it so they could be singled out in a crowd.

Similarly, brown skinned urban kids using the word "thug" to describe themselves in defiance of mainstream society is an act of establishing both personal and community identity. Using it as an insult is a slur.

You have someone, you don't know the exact age, walking toward you at a fairly good clip, pointing an object at you in a way that one would point a gun, and it looks like a gun. So, you holler at them 3 times to put down the gun. They don't stop and put down the gun, they keep walking toward you waving it around. AGAIN, you still do not know the age...what are they to do? Asses some more? How much? What questions should they ask? As the person is walking toward you, you could ask "hey is that a toy gun"? Are you kidding me? Could they have shot him in the leg? Sure, but that is not their training. Should their training change? Ok...have that discussion, but I am not going to demonize these officers.

The accident was a horrible, horrible thing, I feel for the mother so much....she has lost a child.

But we were not in that situation, we were not there, we are hearing facts received AFTER, and we are seeing it through the lens of a camera... For us to judge anything is pretty pointless.



No, it is not reclamation...it is glorification of a lifestyle that most see as criminal behavior, they young students, wannabes, and people who are IN FACT, Thugs....see as cool behavior.

 

[The Question]

It's possible he would have done the same thing with a white boy having what appears to be a real gun. We aren't in his mind, so I guess we could presume too much.

Possible? Sure. But when this sort of thing keeps happening week after week all across the country, it stops being isolated incidents or unfortunate flukes and starts being a trend.

 

[The Question]

The historical name doesn't matter. These kids are identifying themselves as thugs. That's the term THEY are using

It's not uncommon for black youths to use the n-word to describe themselves. Does that mean it isn't a slur when it's used by outsiders?

No, it is not reclamation...it is glorification of a lifestyle that most see as criminal behavior, they see as cool behavior.

I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive.

 

[Schlosser85]

No, it is not reclamation...it is glorification of a lifestyle that most see as criminal behavior, they see as cool behavior.

Agreed, and I find its equating with the LGBT community claiming "queer" as their own as a form of empowerment kind of an offensive comparison, to be honest.

Gay people calling themselves queer (a word I don't personally care for) isn't about glorifying criminal behavior.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Possible? Sure. But when this sort of thing keeps happening week after week all across the country, it stops being isolated incidents or unfortunate flukes and starts being a trend.

Actually as a whole these instances are quite rare statistically. That's why they make it as large media stories. Considering these cops deal with more black men on average, it also raises the chances that when something does happen it would be with that segment.

 

[Greens]

It has its historical roots in British colonization of the Indian subcontinent, and is almost exclusively used to disparage non-white and lower class communities. When it is used against white lawbreakers, it is almost always used against white lawbreakers engaging in criminal behavior stereotypically associated with non-white communities.

Even if one were to argue that its use as an insult is not a slur in every context, and argument not entirely without merit, it's certainly being used as a slur in the context of what's going on in Baltimore and all of the recent police shootings of black kids.

Check out the article I posted, and decide for yourself.

I don't know, it sounds like you're reaching here. Hans Gruber could be called a thug just as much as a black kid from Baltimore could.

I don't see what's wrong with calling a perpetrator of thuggish behavior (of which white people are just as capable as black people) a thug.

 

[ThePreface]

The Fourth Branch of government strikes again! All the rabble rousing the media's doing makes martial law seem like a good idea. A domestic "War on Terror". LOL I can't take news seriously anymore.

 

[The Question]

Actually as a whole these instances are quite rare statistically. That's why they make it as large media stories. Considering these cops deal with more black men on average, it also raises the chances that when something does happen it would be with that segment.

No, actually, it's not "quite rare" statistically.

http://killedbypolice.net

Compare those numbers to the Metropolitan Police's record:

http://www.inquest.org.uk/statistics/deaths-in-police-custody

Or, more damningly, the Icelandic police department's record:

http://www.pri.org/stories/2013-12-03/iceland-grieves-after-police-kill-man-first-time-its-history

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

It's not uncommon for black youths to use the n-word to describe themselves. Does that mean it isn't a slur when it's used by outsiders?



I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive.

They aren't wanting to be identified by others outside the race as the N word. Being called the N word for simply being black is a slur. Being black is how they are born, it is not a choice anyways. It is who they are born as. Being called a thug for engaging in this thug life culture, is a choice. It is not something you are born as. The identity is from the urban style to portray a tough gangbanger image. They don't want people to see them as the N word cause they are black, but they want people to see them as thugs because they are trying to look like it.