Was Hitler Evil? (The Politics of Evil)

[chamber-music]

Neither is believable, but there still a mountain of evidence that Hitler would have treated blacks worse then the US government did.

I think the point you are ignoring is that US was at least on the path to making social progress towards treating black people more equally. After WWII, the US army was desegregated, two decades later MLK was able to campaign for civil rights in America. In a world controlled by Hitler, Hitler would have sent both Ghandi and MLK to death camps. Hitler would have been worse for non whites then the US and UK governments were. Heck, if Hitler can make Stalin look like the lesser of two evils to the Russian people, it would be an even greater moral divide between Hitler and FDR and Churchill.

Walter Tull was a the first Black British officer in the British army and that was back in World War 1. He was a Second Lieutenant in the Infantry despite the fact there was a law against black or mixed race people being commanding officers.

That never would of happened in Nazis Germany.

But as I recall didn't the Nazi's win the largest percentage of the legislature as a party, and basically took the place of the traditional Conservative party?

Yes but the Nazis party also murdered the opposition once they were in power and became a dictatorship so it wasn't like Germans could elect anyone else after the Nazis came to power.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Yes but the Nazis party also murdered the opposition once they were in power and became a dictatorship so it wasn't like Germans could elect anyone else after the Nazis came to power.

True, but I don't think that undermines my point that Germany very much approved of the Nazis. Their anti-semitism was more or less a reflection of a growing trend of anti-semitic thought in Europe and Germany.

This is also evidenced by the fact that many Jews predicted what the Nazis eventually went and did and fled the country beforehand because of it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

1930's Germans weren't particularly racist against blacks. I recall reading how Jesse Owens was surprised by the German people calling him Herr Owens, Hitler shaking his hand, and them letting him stay in a four star hotel. On a more local level, no Africans living in Germany (and there were a few, mostly from former German African colonies) were put into ghettos or death camps. A few were even in the SS.

Their views were downright progressive towards blacks compared to that of the average American circa 1930's.

Keep in mind that the Nazis were very arbitrary. They saw Slavs as subhuman, but they were okay with allying themselves with Cossacks and other White Russians (white as in, anti-communist, not Caucasian).

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

1930's Germans weren't particularly racist against blacks. I recall reading how Jesse Owens was surprised by the German people calling him Herr Owens, Hitler shaking his hand, and them letting him stay in a four star hotel. On a more local level, no Africans living in Germany (and there were a few, mostly from former German African colonies) were put into ghettos or death camps. A few were even in the SS.

Their views were downright progressive towards blacks compared to that of the average American circa 1930's.

Keep in mind that the Nazis were very arbitrary. They saw Slavs as subhuman, but they were okay with allying themselves with Cossacks and other White Russians (white as in, anti-communist, not Caucasian).

That's kind of what I was getting at with invading armies. They make strange allies outside their own country.

Hitler in fact received thousands of mail correspondents from Russia and Allied countries from people locked in prison and death camps. Ironically he wrote them back very emotional letters about how he felt their pain, and felt for them, and how he would send help.

You see that kind of odd empathetic hypocrisy play out a lot.

Andrew Jackson spent a lifetime killing Indians, yet he adopted one and sent him through college. On his deathbed, despite being an almost cartoonish racist said "I hope to see all of you, yes all of you, white and black, when I get to heaven".

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

America to me, at this point, at least judging foreign policy, reminds me a lot of the Empire from Star Wars.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think with Jackson as with Custer, it's key to remember that they did discriminate with Indians. I.e. they treated some differently, based on tribe, and personal affiliation.

Hitler is an odd one. He definitely hated Jews. But he let his mother's Jewish doctor leave the country.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I think with Jackson as with Custer, it's key to remember that they did discriminate with Indians. I.e. they treated some differently, based on tribe, and personal affiliation.

I'm almost positive the child he adopted was a child of natives his troops slaughtered. You are right though, some Natives worked hand in hand with Americans, and even sold out their own.

Hitler is an odd one. He definitely hated Jews. But he let his mother's Jewish doctor leave the country.

Moreover he financed the Nazi party with Jewish money, and was made Corporal in WWI by Jewish officers and awarded for his bravery.

There is a ton of odd hypocrisy going on there.

 

[ObakeTora]

Let me first apologize to OP, for skimming over his article. Yea Hitler was indeed evil, but I know "of" people that make Hitler seem like a jaywalker. I understand you are arguing what makes someone truly evil, and it seems the only factor in deciding who is evil is democracy. Case in point, a Romanian Jew I would speak with hosted a blog that exposed the atrocities and horrors of what went on in the concentration camps. I said to her I identify with her struggle and told her of the horrors and the atrocities black Americans endured during slavery and the events leading up until this day. You know what she told me? Stop crying over slavery.

Hitler was elevated to the status of "super evil" not only by his actions but by a good PR campaign. Also politics aside I find it ironic that Netanyahu is doing something similar to Palestinians.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Let me first apologize to OP, for skimming over his article. Yea Hitler was indeed evil, but I know "of" people that make Hitler seem like a jaywalker. I understand you are arguing what makes someone truly evil, and it seems the only factor in deciding who is evil is democracy. Case in point, a Romanian Jew I would speak with hosted a blog that exposed the atrocities and horrors of what went on in the concentration camps. I said to her I identify with her struggle and told her of the horrors and the atrocities black Americans endured during slavery and the events leading up until this day. You know what she told me? Stop crying over slavery.

Hitler was elevated to the status of "super evil" not only by his actions but by a good PR campaign. Also politics aside I find it ironic that Netanyahu is doing something similar to Palestinians.

That's basically why I started this thread.

 

[ObakeTora]

sad bleepin world we live in.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I do think evil, at least to some degree translates across cultural lines. I reject total cultural relativism.

After all, all humans have the same basic brain, and share some basic concept of morality (i.e. murder and stealing is wrong in all cultures).

I think the Nazis, and the slave owners knew what they were doing was morally wrong. They justified it in their minds (either through greed, or... well being vicious bastards), but they knew it was wrong.

You see this a lot, with apologists for people like George Washington and Robert E. Lee. I.e., Washington and Lee knew what they were doing was wrong... but society and the times blah blah blah.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

sad bleepin world we live in.

It makes me very sad, mostly because it more and more feeds my worldview that Religion is at best a horrible, delusional way of thinking and at worst a giant con so a few people can control the world.

It also makes me sad for the Jews, because I realize most Jewish people I know do not feel these things or would push for these things.

I grow tired though of this Jewish and Christian insistence that their imperial, genocidal religions are somehow better than Muslims; with their IEDs and suicide bombers.

I'm not really a scale guy, because I have no doubt if the shoe were on the other foot, that the United States became the United States of Islam would just swap word choices, rather than policy.

I really feel religion is just an opiate though. I feel most Jews who do go along with Zionism identify with the religious reasons, but I don't feel those were ever the reasons. I don't actually feel anyone at the top genuinely buys religion. Mostly because I'm smart enough to know if I were in power how useful a tool it would be.

In fact, this ironically reminds me of an Evolution article I read that stated humans who were better at lying were genetically better suited for "society" and rose to the top better. Specifically those that knew when they were lying and did it anyways.

It seems to me that this is all about land, and money, and power. Am I supposed to be surprised the "promised land" happens to be a VERY fertile section of the Middle East? That it's basically the cradle of civilization, and dominating that would mean dominating the world. It's true. It's a land that's rich with resources. Megatron's wet dream.

Am I supposed to believe that Arabia was this barren wasteland of settlers who hated Jews, Christians and were just backwards? It wasn't. Arabia in the 1920s, parts of it, looked like the US in the 1950s. They were terribly advanced, and supposedly very religiously tolerant in areas which are now controlled by Islamo-fascists. In fact I think the Jewish population there was thriving before WWII.

If the US or Israel, or both, owned the Middle East region, they'll control everything. Not even the EU or China will be able to write a letter to their grandma without going through the US and Israel at that point.

This is domination. Pure and simple.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I do think evil, at least to some degree translates across cultural lines. I reject total cultural relativism.

After all, all humans have the same basic brain, and share some basic concept of morality (i.e. murder and stealing is wrong in all cultures).

I think the Nazis, and the slave owners knew what they were doing was morally wrong. They justified it in their minds (either through greed, or... well being vicious bastards), but they knew it was wrong.

You see this a lot, with apologists for people like George Washington and Robert E. Lee. I.e., Washington and Lee knew what they were doing was wrong... but society and the times blah blah blah.

That's the glory of winning.

Kind of that point I made about 'progress'.

Take Obama for example. Obama is the first black President, probably due to large part from small contributions from Washington, Lincoln and Lee, and some of those people who "knew what they were doing was wrong but the time...blah blah".

So really though, does our Generation waking up and realizes blacks too can be President, does that really excuse Washington and Lee being racist, at least by today's standards? I'm not sure it does.

 

[Schlosser85]

It's not fair to judge people like Washington and Lee by today's standards of what constitutes racism.

Lee opposed slavery, but did not believe blacks were equal to whites, as barely anyone did at that time period.

 

[Schlosser85]

The evangelists who claim to be horrified by the "kill the gays" bill in Uganda that they funded and supported are lying, false sacks of ****.

Not to mention as Christian as a horse's ass.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

It's not fair to judge people like Washington and Lee by today's standards of what constitutes racism.

Lee opposed slavery, but did not believe blacks were equal to whites, as barely anyone did at that time period.

Again, that's kind of my point.

Hitler, by the way, it's okay to judge his anti-semitism by "today's standards", but Washington and Lee are "heroes" therefore it is not okay to harp on their racism. Granted you can't accuse them of the same level of genocide, although the natives may have something other to say about that.

I mean yes, barely anyone did. And fairly few Germans were helping the Jews for moral reasons by comparison to those that were hurting them for political reasons.

I think it's very fair to point out the moral failings of these people. Just because in the end everything worked out is hardly an excuse.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The evangelists who claim to be horrified by the "kill the gays" bill in Uganda that they funded and supported are lying, false sacks of ****.

Not to mention as Christian as a horse's ass.

Like I said, I wonder truly how many people who push religion actually buy it, and how many people just recognize it's usefulness in making themselves powerful.

 

[Matt]

I think with Jackson as with Custer, it's key to remember that they did discriminate with Indians. I.e. they treated some differently, based on tribe, and personal affiliation.

Hitler is an odd one. He definitely hated Jews. But he let his mother's Jewish doctor leave the country.

There are more than a few historians who will argue that the trail of tears was Jackson's attempt to be humane. Many historians believe that had Jackson not forced relocation, the death toll would've been even higher as it would've resulted in clashes between the settlers and the Native Americans which ultimately would've resulted in full on war and likely genocide of the Native American people (and that Jackson was very aware of this possibility).

I'm not saying that Jackson was a great guy, but it pisses me off that so many people are willing to give the likes of Jefferson a free pass for raping his slaves because he was a "product of his time," but Jackson is a monster to these same people.

 

[Schlosser85]

Comparing Hitler, who presided over the systematic deliberate murder of millions of people for their racial, ethnic, or religious background, to someone like Robert E. Lee, who, while he did not consider blacks equal to whites, opposed slavery and freed his father's slaves when he inherited his plantation, is a complete false equivalency. There's no moral comparison, and doing so, IMO, greatly downplays Hitler's own atrocities...which this entire thread increasingly seems to be aimed at.

 

[DACrowe]

Indeed. I have quit commenting, because this whole thread seems to be a mass rationalization of excusing Hitler's systematic slaughter and genocide of 12 million people based on religion, ethnicity, age, disability, sexuality, etc. and starting a pointless war of conquest that led to the deaths of some 50-70 million people total. And the mental gymnastics that some are going through to find equivalency with that and the likes of Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln is offensively dumb.

Now, if people want to have a pissing contest on who was "more evil" or "more barbaric" between Hitler, Stalin, Mao and the likes....well have fun with that.

I still do not get the point of this thread. Is Hitler evil? Yes. We can discuss why, but there are limits to moral relativism and this thread has grossly passed that line.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Comparing Hitler, who presided over the systematic deliberate murder of millions of people for their racial, ethnic, or religious background, to someone like Robert E. Lee, who, while he did not consider blacks equal to whites, opposed slavery and freed his father's slaves when he inherited his plantation, is a complete false equivalency. There's no moral comparison, and doing so, IMO, greatly downplays Hitler's own atrocities...which this entire thread increasingly seems to be aimed at.

Eh? It's the whole blacks suffered "for the greater good" which is the same argument Nazis made. I think our slavery went on for so long it lacks a central Hitler figure.

Hitler makes a better Bond villain basically whereas slavery can't be accused of having one central figurehead.

I don't think that makes what they thought did "good" or necessarily "better".

 

[DACrowe]

America to me, at this point, at least judging foreign policy, reminds me a lot of the Empire from Star Wars.

If America is the Evil Empire (literally was it's called in SW), what is Nazi Germany to you?

This thread is...yeah.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I still do not get the point of this thread. Is Hitler evil? Yes. We can discuss why, but there are limits to moral relativism and this thread has grossly passed that line.

The only moral relativists here are the ones who want Hitler to be "more evil" than America, Israel and other Nations when they do the exact same thing and don't have to answer for it.

 

[Matt]

This has gone on long enough (pity, I was looking forward to having a conversation about Jackson and the Trail of Tears).