State of Emergency: Baltimore Edition

[The Question]

I don't know, it sounds like you're reaching here. Hans Gruber could be called a thug just as much as a black kid from Baltimore could.

I don't see what's wrong with calling a perpetrator of thuggish behavior (of which white people are just as capable as black people) a thug.

But that's not how it plays out in practice.

 

[The Question]

They aren't wanting to be identified by others outside the race as the N word. Being called the N word for simply being black is a slur. Being black is how they are born, it is not a choice anyways. It is who they are born as. Being called a thug for engaging in this thug life culture, is a choice. It is not something you are born as. The identity is from the urban style to portray a tough gangbanger image. They don't want people to see them as the N word cause they are black, but they want people to see them as thugs because they are trying to look like it.

1: People are born into culture too, and culturally identity is pretty closely intertwined with racial identity, especially here in the united states.

2: Use of the n-word as a symbol of cultural identity is also a part of the "thug culture" we're talking about, so I really don't see the difference.

 

[Kelly]

But that's not how it plays out in practice.

Only because YOU put the racial tone to it, not because someone on here calls someone a thug who is playing out, resorting to, inflicting upon others and the community thug like CRIMINAL behavior.

It's actually very simple, if you don't want to be called a "thug" don't act like one. THEY WANT TO BE CALLED A THUG, hence why they portray that image. You can't portray the image one moment and say..."oh it's ok to call me a thug right now, because I am acting like one, dressing like one, looking like what I see in the videos etc." BUT...AS SOON AS YOU call someone a thug that is ACTUALLY CARRYING OUT UNLAWFUL acts against a community, and is dressed just like they dressed the day before (when it was ok to call them a thug) cannot cry RACIST because they are being called one today.

The white kid, dressing like what they see on TV, in the videos etc TODAY, cannot cry "offensive word....offensive word" tomorrow either if they are actually carrying out the unlawful criminal actions of someone that we define as A THUG.

 

[Schlosser85]

Am I the only one who's heard white people referred to as thugs all the time?

To be totally candid, I'm not going to stop using the word "thug" toward people acting like thugs, whatever their race, just because some people insist on playing the race card.

And equating the glorification of the gang lifestyle to the gay community reclaiming "queer", to me, is offensive.

 

[The Question]

And equating the glorification of the gang lifestyle to the gay community reclaiming "queer", to me, is offensive.

Okay. But if you read my post, you will see that I did not do that.

 

[Greens]

Am I the only one who's heard white people referred to as thugs all the time?

To be totally candid, I'm not going to stop using the word "thug" toward people acting like thugs, whatever their race, just because some people insist on playing the race card.

And equating the glorification of the gang lifestyle to the gay community reclaiming "queer", to me, is offensive.

You're not the only one. The racial connotation is new to me.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Am I the only one who's heard white people referred to as thugs all the time?

To be totally candid, I'm not going to stop using the word "thug" toward people acting like thugs, whatever their race, just because some people insist on playing the race card.

And equating the glorification of the gang lifestyle to the gay community reclaiming "queer", to me, is offensive.

I have never heard it in referenced to a white dude before. I also don't see it as anything racial personally, but it can used that way by certain folks. Eh. I have no beef wit it. I have seen it referenced by folks describing teens wearing baggy jeans and a hoodie before. Lawd.

 

[Victarion]

Yeah, I used to see white kids call themselves thug all the time when I was in high school. The only instance I've heard of it being given racial connotations was a CNN interview with Erin Rogers and some congressman. Last night, or the night before.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice, CDC and the FBI Census Bureau.

Police killings of blacks down 70 percent in last 50 years
In 2012, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun
In 2012, 326 whites were killed by police with a gun
In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders
In 2013, whites committed 4,396 murders
Blacks are only 13% of population. Whites are around 70%. It's hard to argue they are committing crimes at a higher rate.​

I think we have to consider in the inner city areas, there is a predominate population of black people. The majority race of that area is going to be the most likely to get arrested at a higher rate. Also the higher poverty levels of this segment may be responsible for much of the violence.









​

 

[The Question]

You have someone, you don't know the exact age,

But they are clearly a prepubescent child.

walking toward you at a fairly good clip, pointing an object at you in a way that one would point a gun, and it looks like a gun. So, you holler at them 3 times to put down the gun. They don't stop and put down the gun, they keep walking toward you waving it around. AGAIN, you still do not know the age...what are they to do? Asses some more? How much? What questions should they ask?

Well, first of all, you should make sure you are certain wether or not the person in question can actually hear you or knows that you are there.

As the person is walking toward you, you could ask "hey is that a toy gun"?

Perhaps the officer could have moved to a safer distance to observe, or approached slowly with caution. Maybe officers need better training in the use of firearms so they don't pull them too soon, better training in assessing genuine danger and distinguishing it from false alarms, and better training in keeping their head in a stressful situation. I can't imagine that shooting before anything is known for certain is the best policy we can hope for, especially when you look at all of the instances where people were highly armed and officers arrested them without shooting them. I know we can do better than this, and writing off as a random accident stalls progress.

Could they have shot him in the leg? Sure, but that is not their training. Should their training change? Ok…have that discussion, but I am not going to demonize these officers.

The point isn't demonizing officers. The point is to acknowledge that this keeps happening, is the result of a flawed and biased system of criminal justice, and to call for that system to receive a complete overhaul.

But we were not in that situation, we were not there, we are hearing facts received AFTER, and we are seeing it through the lens of a camera... For us to judge anything is pretty pointless.

Trying to look at the flaws in the system and rectify them isn't pointless.

 

[Kelly]

I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive.

I'm sorry, but my kids who are dressing like thugs are not doing it to reclaim it to its earlier glory. And the rap artists using the term in their music are not doing that either.

They are doing it because it is against the norm, against "the man", against what their parents want, against what their teachers see as "good" and "proper". And it signifies criminal behavior that is ALSO AGAINST all of those things. But hey, only call me a thug when I'm just dressing like one. You can't call me a thug when I'm actually carrying out criminal behavior. That's not cool.

 

[The Question]

I think we have to consider in the inner city areas, there is a predominate population of black people. The majority race of that area is going to be the most likely to get arrested at a higher rate. Also the higher poverty levels of this segment may be responsible for much of the violence.

"In 2012, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun
In 2012, 326 whites were killed with a gun"

Unless that's a typo, those two statistics don't seem related to me.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Cops should have more proper training.

 

[The Question]

I'm sorry, but my kids who are dressing like thugs are not doing it to reclaim it to its earlier glory. And the rap artists using the term in their music are not doing that either.

Reclamation has nothing to do with a concept of "earlier glory."

They are doing it because it is against the norm, against "the man", against what their parents want, against what their teachers see as "good" and "proper".

Yes, because of the sense that those institutions have failed them and oppressed them as a community, and so they define themselves in contrast to it.

And it signifies criminal behavior that is ALSO AGAINST all of those things. But hey, only call me a thug when I'm just dressing like one. You can't call me a thug when I'm actually carrying out criminal behavior. That's not cool.

Yeah, that's not what I've said at all. What I said is that individuals get to use the word to describe themselves and establish a community identity, but using it as a disparagement to delegitimize their political and social grievances and to paint them as being in some way less is, in practice, a slur.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

"In 2012, 123 blacks were killed by police with a gun
In 2012, 326 whites were killed with a gun"

Unless that's a typo, those two statistics don't seem related to me.

It was a typo. It should say "were killed by police with a gun"

I just found that stat today. I'm sure the validity could be questioned as it is featured on a faux news program.

 

[Black Narcissus]

edit/not worth it.

 

[Schlosser85]

But they are clearly a prepubescent child.

A bullet fired from a gun held by a prepubescent child can kill you just as much as one fired by an adult. A kid holding a gun is still a threat.

 

[Kelly]

But they are clearly a prepubescent child.

I had boys in my 6th grade classes that looked like a freaking man, and had facial hair by the end of the day. Please.....

Well, first of all, you should make sure you are certain wether or not the person in question can actually hear you or knows that you are there.

HENCE, why they yelled it 3 times.

Perhaps the officer could have moved to a safer distance to observe, or approached slowly with caution. Maybe officers need better training in the use of firearms so they don't pull them too soon, better training in assessing genuine danger and distinguishing it from false alarms, and better training in keeping their head in a stressful situation. I can't imagine that shooting before anything is known for certain is the best policy we can hope for, especially when you look at all of the instances where people were highly armed and officers arrested them without shooting them. I know we can do better than this, and writing off as a random accident stalls progress.

Well, shooting before you know "for certain" that its a gun, is a hell of a lot better than waiting until you know "for certain" that its a gun, and it is a gun and is fired at you, or others in the park.

If I am at the park that I frequent every weekend. And there is ANYONE that is taller than me, I'm 5.3....and is in a cap, etc coming in my direction with something that is OBVIOUSLY a gun, whether it is a play gun or not...and a cop is in the park with me, and does what these cops did... I'm not sure that I would be judging them. I would be hollering, he's got a gun, he's got a gun. I would not be hollering, oooooh wait, wait, ask him if its a toy gun.....oh wait, wait, I think he is under age. Please...

Again, it was a terrible, terrible thing to happen. A mother has lost her son, and police officers have killed a child. That is horrible, but I do not want the next cop to be KILLED and a son without a father, because they waited too long and what they "thought" might be a toy gun held by a child, ended up being a real gun, held by a child that shot them.

The point isn't demonizing officers. The point is to acknowledge that this keeps happening, is the result of a flawed and biased system of criminal justice, and to call for that system to receive a complete overhaul.

Trying to look at the flaws in the system and rectify them isn't pointless.

Questioning it is fine, seeking to understand it is fine, but automatically placing it in the category of a bias with race, is not.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

So he's more worried about what people will think of him than dealing with this situation? What a leader.

He doesn't care but I am sure it gets exhausting. Your comment kinda proves the point. He is gonna get criticized not matter what he does.

 

[Black Narcissus]

Mexico's biggest capos get unarmed and caught without firing one bullet from the cops, but folks here are dropping like flies from the cops. It really makes me shake my head.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

edit/not worth it.

I caught the flamebait you posted.

I wonder do you put Kelly, Schloss, Craig, or anyone else that has had a similar opinion to mine on ignore?

I never made up that stat. It was featured on faux news, so some may question it based on that alone though

Anyways,

The stat simply has to do with whether the stories coming out by the media are overstating the law enforcement shootings on black men. I disagree that they are being targeted for being black. I also believe they are more anomalies than the normal event. I think the communities these shootings happen in are mostly black. If 90% of the people police deal with are black, the chances are a shooting or arrest for that matter would involve that segment.

If that is a racist assertion, you are quite confused.

/end of point.

Though you seem to pick and choose when I'm on ignore apparently. meh

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Of course the dominant race of an area would be the dominant race to be stopped by police. I do find that regardless of race, many situations could have been calmed down by complying. The question is if police are overstepping their bounds and profiling all black men as potential criminals. If there are stops that shouldn't be made in the first place, it is unfair for the law abiding black men in these cities.

 

[The Question]

I had boys in my 6th grade classes that looked like a freaking man, and had facial hair by the end of the day. Please…..

Seeing as how that doesn't describe Tamir Rice at all, I don't see how that's relevant.

HENCE, why they yelled it 3 times.

And as Rice did not response or even acknowledge this, it either proves that Tamir Rice could not hear him and did not know he was there, or it proves that the officer did not know for certain that Tamir Rice heard him or knew he was there.

Also, I would argue that the fact that Rice was waiving what looked like a gun around and moving in the direction of the officer, but not firing it or even acknowledging the officer when he yelled, proves that the officer's decision was hasty and unreasonable, even in that circumstance.

Look at all of the instances where police officers calmly approach someone who is holding a firearm and manage to disarm them without hurting them? Or all of the instances where officers manage to overpower a dangerous suspect who is wielding firearms, again without harming the person seriously?

If the police in Colorado were able to arrest James Holmes in the movie theater parking lot, just minutes after he shot up a bunch of people and while he was still armed to the teeth with very real guns, without killing or even seriously injuring him, then there's no way that saying the officer who shot Tamir Rice behaved reasonably in that situation will sound like anything other than an excuse.

Well, shooting before you know "for certain" that its a gun, is a hell of a lot better than waiting until you know "for certain" that its a gun, and it is a gun and is fired at you, or others in the park.

I don't want to live in a society where the decision to use deadly force is made that liberally and with such little information.

If I am at the park that I frequent every weekend. And there is ANYONE that is taller than me, I'm 5.3....and is in a cap, etc coming in my direction with something that is OBVIOUSLY a gun, whether it is a play gun or not...and a cop is in the park with me, and does what these cops did... I'm not sure that I would be judging them. I would be hollering, he's got a gun, he's got a gun. I would not be hollering, oooooh wait, wait, ask him if its a toy gun.....oh wait, wait, I think he is under age. Please…[/quote]

I'd hope that law enforcement professionals would have better training in risk assessment than just some person going for a walk in the park.

Again, it was a terrible, terrible thing to happen. A mother has lost her son, and police officers have killed a child. That is horrible, but I do not want the next cop to be KILLED and a son without a father, because they waited too long and what they "thought" might be a toy gun held by a child, ended up being a real gun, held by a child that shot them.

I honestly think that the safety of civilians is more important than the safety of law enforcement professionals. They willingly take a job they know is dangerous that ostensibly exists for the sole purpose of keeping the civilian population safe. If they're placing their own safety over the safety of civilians, then the system is doing the opposite of what it claims its goals are.

Questioning it is fine, seeking to understand it is fine, but automatically placing it in the category of a bias with race, is not.

Why? That's the pattern. It's what the available evidence strongly suggests.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Honestly based on that footage of Rice, I can't really blame an officer shooting in that case. If it looks like a gun, and is being waved around as such to intimidate people it is a threat. A gun is just as lethal held by a 12 year old as a 21 year old if hitting a target.

 

[Victarion]

He doesn't care but I am sure it gets exhausting. Your comment kinda proves the point. He is gonna get criticized not matter what he does.

His remarks about the need for a bit of soul searching and all were on-point and didn't come across as divisive. To me at least. It's difficult to figure out just where it is we need to improve. There was the one guy with asthma where they used excessive force to bring him in. Here, the guy was killed from what sounds like negligence, them not belting him in and him dying from a rough ride.

Anger issues is the closest I can figure. You've got to be going at it with an aggressive mindset here; its not so much them being in fear of their lives and pulling their guns in self-defense. Programs to help the officers find health outlets for their anger, or anxiety or whatever would probably be a step in the right direction.