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State of Emergency: Baltimore Edition

Yeah, but he is always proven wrong. And he brought it up during the other riots and and now here. He brings it up time and time again.

More white folks as a whole: Less crime

Less black folks as a whole: More crime

Some bs logic to me.

If his point is about cops on black shootings being overstated by the media (statistically), the stat seems valid to any number of these riot situations. I don't know why you are bugging out man. Kinda being harsh. :confused:
 
No, but I never said that I could. What I said (actually, all Jesse Benn said, I was quoting him) was that on the whole, white people tend to be more vocally opposed to rioting than they are to be vocally opposed to the police brutality and deaths that incited the rioting in the first place.

You can tell, because that's what the post you just quoted actually says.

lol, how is what you are saying different from Benn? because he just said "whites" and you said, "on the whole white people".
 
lol, how is what you are saying different from Benn? because he just said "whites" and you said, "on the whole white people".

What I was saying isn't different from what Jesse Benn said. I never said it was.
 
Orioles played first MLB game ever with no fans...
 
No, but I never said that I could. What I said (actually, all Jesse Benn said, I was quoting him) was that on the whole, white people tend to be more vocally opposed to rioting than they are to be vocally opposed to the police brutality and deaths that incited the rioting in the first place.

You can tell, because that's what the post you just quoted actually says.

I think some white people are also opposed to rioting when we don't know the full facts of a story. Actually even protesting some of these shootings where we don't know the facts is going too far. A side is chosen without enough information to fully back it up. A city is looted and violence takes place. Horrible for the community and not justice at all.
 
I think some white people are also opposed to rioting when we don't know the full facts of a story. Actually even protesting some of these shootings where we don't know the facts is going too far. A side is chosen without enough information to fully back it up. A city is looted and violence takes place. Horrible for the community and not justice at all.
I had a big problem with the coverage of Wilson/Brown shooting because of this. The full facts were not known, but Sharpton came to town and media coverage got huge in Ferguson. The city suffered because of this. Repeat to Baltimore :cmad:
 
I think some white people are also opposed to rioting when we don't know the full facts of a story. Actually even protesting some of these shootings where we don't know the facts is going too far. A side is chosen without enough information to fully back it up. A city is looted and violence takes place. Horrible for the community and not justice at all.

I'm opposed to a bunch of witnesses lying to say Darren Wilson executed Michael Brown in cold blood, some of whom later even admitted they were lying.

And then thugs who don't know or care about the facts of the case using it as an excuse to loot and pillage and get some free liquor and free TVs and burn stuff.

Reality had to be distorted pretty severely to paint Michael Brown as a martyr.
 
I think some white people are also opposed to rioting when we don't know the full facts of a story. Actually even protesting some of these shootings where we don't know the facts is going too far. A side is chosen without enough information to fully back it up. A city is looted and violence takes place. Horrible for the community and not justice at all.

1: In most cases, these riots sprang out of entirely peaceful protests and vigils that escalated due to the gross overreaction of the local police.

2: Most of these protests aren't in response to the shootings themselves, but in response to local authorities stonewalling the investigation into the shootings, thus preventing the public from having all of the facts.

3: I would argue that there is an extent to which the facts of the individual cases don't matter so much. These protests aren't about individual shootings, but a pattern of police violence and government indifference that disproportionately effects people of color. Every time a white cop kills a black kid, and every time the local authorities drag their heels getting to the truth, it's another straw on the camel's back.
 
I'm opposed to a bunch of witnesses lying to say Darren Wilson executed Michael Brown in cold blood, some of whom later even admitted they were lying.

And then thugs who don't know or care about the facts of the case using it as an excuse to loot and pillage and get some free liquor and free TVs and burn stuff.

Reality had to be distorted pretty severely to paint Michael Brown as a martyr.
I think some of the witnesses lied out of the bad relations between cops and the neighborhood. They felt a loyalty to the community and chose to go against the cop and system by pretending to have seen what happened. It doesn't make falsifying the info right, but it shows how bad the dynamic is.
 
You need me to explain to you how witnesses lying to portray Brown's death as a cold-blooded execution helped perpetuate the cycle the black community and the police are stuck in?

Yes, I do. That's why I asked. Either answer the question or don't, but don't try to turn it around and make me sound foolish for asking you to clarify your statement.
 
Because lying about the incident to make it sound like a cold-blooded execution helped fan the flames which led to the riots....I really don't see how that wasn't self-explanatory.
 
Because lying about the incident to make it sound like a cold-blooded execution helped fan the flames which led to the riots....I really don't see how that wasn't self-explanatory.

That's not a cycle, that's just a line.

Unless you're saying that this is the reason why cops shoot so many black people.
 
There is an incident where a black man is killed by a white cop. There are riots. Police respond in force. People get angrier. Another shooting. More riots.

They perpetuate each other. Hence why I called it a vicious circle. Neither side is blameless.
 
There is an incident where a black man is killed by a white cop. There are riots. Police respond in force. People get angrier. Another shooting. More riots.

They perpetuate each other. Hence why I called it a vicious circle. Neither side is blameless.

Yeah, but the cycle wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the actions of the side with guns.

Also, when people are dying, I view property damage as a secondary concern at best.
 
Yeah, but the cycle wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for the actions of the side with guns.

Also, when people are dying, I view property damage as a secondary concern at best.

Which side is that? Both sides have guns, and use them.

Also, property damage is a secondary concern "at best"?

You're basically saying it doesn't matter that people's businesses and livelihoods have been destroyed, which is both morally irresponsible, and racist.
 
I cannot get the "WTF Cat" gif out of my head now...
 
Some of the people in Ferguson were small business owners who put everything they had into their business, and saw it burned to the ground in riots over events they had nothing to do with.

The fact that you barely even consider this a "secondary concern" speaks volumes of your character.
 
When Rioting is Rational
“Riots” aren’t random occurrences. They’re a reaction to structural oppression.
by Michael Gould-Wartofsky
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/when-rioting-is-rational-ferguson/
n recent days, a parade of white power players has descended on Brooklyn to denounce the Black Lives Matter movement. In dueling press conferences and TV appearances, they have tied protests to riots, riots to criminality, and criminality to economic calamity. In so doing, they have shifted the onus from the police to the policed.

This is one of the oldest tricks in the book. Long before broken windows, the partisans of law and order claimed that protests are bound to cause riots, and that riots are bound to cause violent crime and neighborhood decline. In the decades since the urban uprisings of the 1960s and 1970s, the myth of the “riot effect” has been deployed to rationalize the massive expansion of urban police forces and with it, the escalation of policing to the level of low-intensity warfare.

Fifty years after the Watts Rebellion, and more than four months after the first shots were fired in Ferguson, we continue to hear the same refrain. Here is Time: “Can Ferguson Recover? The Lasting Economic Impact of Violent Unrest.” USA Today: “Some Fear Rioting May Seal Ferguson’s Fate for Decades.” And National Review: “Businesses and neighborhoods may never recover from the present anarchy.”

The recent revival of urban protest has prompted a revival of that hoary urban legend, in which property owners and officers of the peace are the hapless victims, while targets of state terror are the aggressors. The riot is made out to be the root of all evils, the rioter the source of all maladies. But the legend quickly unravels in the face of the facts.

In the 1960s, many white liberals responded to the riots in America’s urban centers with measured condemnation, mixed with equally measured denunciations of institutional racism. They held the white power structure to be “essentially responsible for the explosive mixture which has been accumulating in our cities,” in the words of the Kerner Commission.

Other white liberals professed that the trouble in the inner cities was the product of a “tangle of pathology,” one which was “capable of perpetuating itself without assistance from the white world.” These Great Society liberals would soon find themselves in the company of law-and-order conservatives, who seized upon the writings of Daniel Patrick Moynihan and other liberals to buttress their contention that black America was to blame for “urban decay” and ghetto poverty.

Along with the “culture of poverty” mythology, the riot effect gave white conservatives a convenient cudgel to wield against Black Power and the New Left. The alleged link between urban disorder, violent crime, and economic decline appeared early and often on the campaign trail, beginning with Barry Goldwater’s presidential campaign in 1964 and continuing with Ronald Reagan’s gubernatorial run in 1966, Nixon’s presidential bid in 1968, and the rise of the New Right in the 1970s.

Ten years ago, a pair of economists — one of whom was William J. Collins, later a senior economist in George W. Bush’s administration — finally came up with some findings to endow the riot effect with a veneer of scientific validity. In a series of studies for the National Bureau of Economic Research, Collins and his collaborator found that the cities that experienced the most severe riots from 1960 to 1970 saw the most significant declines in family income, employment prospects, and property values from 1960 to 1980.

On its face, the story they told seems plausible enough: a riot occurs in a northern city with a high concentration of black residents. Other things equal, the riot will have spillover effects in the riot zone and beyond. These effects will be especially bad for black property owners. Insurance premiums will rise, shops will shutter, businesses will relocate, and there will be trouble in the municipal bond markets. The authors conclude that riots can best be described as “shocks… propagated into ‘bad ghettos.’”

Some of the most celebrated writers on the Right later expanded on the theme by arguing it wasn’t structural racism, but rioters (read: black people) who were to blame for the growth of the racial wealth gap. More recently, the story has been trumpeted from the talk show circuit to the front pages of newspapers, the dismal scientists trotted out to dutifully explain to our reckless youth that “rioting is a terrible deal.”

But the “riot effect” narrative contains a fatal flaw betrayed in the terminology itself: it rests on the assumption that “riots” are essentially random occurrences. For those who blame black America for black poverty, riots are distinguished not by their contingency or their spontaneity or their political cast, but by their irrationality. On this misreading of history, civil resistance has nothing to do with the underlying conditions that make it rational to rebel, or with the relations of power that make other avenues of action unavailable to the urban poor.

To justify this assumption, the economists quote a forty-year old study purporting to show that “the severity of a disturbance, as well as its location, appears not to have been contingent upon Negro living conditions or their social or economic status.” And on the basis of this outdated observation, they see fit to eschew all alternative explanations for the condition of the black ghetto over the last several decades.

What, then, are those alternatives? The first is an economic one. Serious social scientists have long linked the crisis in the cities to the collapse of their industrial base — the result of which has been a decline in demand for less-skilled labor and the growth and ghettoization of a surplus population. The effects of job losses have everywhere been disproportionately concentrated among black workers and black communities. In many of the “riot cities,” it is worth noting that the process of industrial restructuring predated the eruption of mass unrest by a decade or more.

A second explanation centers on the role of institutionalized racism. Aptly labeled “American apartheid” by sociologists Doug Massey and Nancy Denton, the urban regime of residential segregation created a “federally sponsored ‘second ghetto’ in which blacks were isolated by class as well as by race.” Segregation went hand in hand with practices like redlining and blockbusting, driven by private developers, mortgage lenders, and the white elite. Such practices likely did more to depress property values than a riot possibly could. More importantly, they maintained a black ghetto wildly profitable for white capital.

A third alternative links the fate of the inner city to the dynamics of class struggle in the North. Rebellions have tended to occur in cities where black workers also engaged in other forms of disruptive power, such as strikes and demonstrations. Riot or no riot, under such conditions, it is reasonable to assume that white business owners might feel compelled to take their money and run. It is also reasonable to assume that white politicians would be inclined to punish the rebellious poor with policies of planned abandonment.

Scholars differ on the forces and factors that explain the scope and severity of urban rebellions. But beyond the looking-glass world of neoclassical economics, there is a growing body of evidence that the consequences of such structural forces were far more significant, persistent, and pernicious than those associated with the alleged riot effect.

What effect, then — if any — does this type of resistance actually have? One possible answer is that it gets the goods. Historically, there is some evidence to support this hypothesis: take Frances Fox Piven and Richard Cloward’s work on poor people’s movements, or Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson’s research on democratization. But in the age of austerity, cities and states with rebellion are more likely to see resources redirected toward security services than social services.

Another answer could be that a riot provides a pretext for elites to do what they were going to do anyway. Business owners can take the opportunity to move out of a neighborhood, but they can just as easily take the opportunity to move in. State managers can use rioting as an excuse for planned abandonment, or they can use it as an argument for redevelopment — as they have done to great effect in gentrifying areas of Oakland, Brooklyn, Cincinnati, and elsewhere. On this reading, the riot effect is not only a ruse, but also a rationalization of existing interests.

It is as rational for communities capitalism deems superfluous to rebel as it is profitable for capital to keep them in their place. But when the apologists for this state of affairs turn to social science for backup, it is worth remembering that their claims to truth remain as questionable as their claims to legitimacy.
 
Which side is that? Both sides have guns, and use them.

You know which side I'm referring to. The police have a significantly greater number of guns, and use them far more frequently. You will also notice that civilian use of firearms in these riots is fairly rare. You will ALSO notice that police use of firearms and deadly force has statistically been more likely to escalate violence in a situation, rather than deescalate it.

Also, property damage is a secondary concern "at best"?

Yes. People are more important than property. That should not be a radical opinion.

You're basically saying it doesn't matter that people's businesses and livelihoods have been destroyed, which is both morally irresponsible, and racist.

1: No, it is not racist. "Damages to business and property are not as important or abhorrent than the loss of human life" is not a statement of racial bias.

2: No, that is not what I am basically saying. I never said that those things do not matter. What I am actually saying is that I am more outraged by people being killed by cops than I am by property damage, and the fact that some people have the opposite reaction is absurd.

Some of the people in Ferguson were small business owners who put everything they had into their business, and saw it burned to the ground in riots over events they had nothing to do with.

The fact that you barely even consider this a "secondary concern" speaks volumes of your character.

The fact that you see people getting killed by police officers as a secondary concern speaks much more of your character.
 
Good thing I never said that, then.

So, if people getting killed by cops is the primary concern, that would mean by default that property damage is the secondary concern. So what exactly was so abhorrent about my statement?
 
Question, my question:

In these major media cases, the person whether rightfully or wrongfully handled by the cop... had criminal records. Why aren't any of the activists worrying about the nature of these communities?

As pointed out by some before- Much of what has happened in all of these cases would have been avoided by not being a criminal, not committing a crime, and compliance with the officer and law.
 

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