State of Emergency: Baltimore Edition

[Schlosser85]

Well, I do agree that people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton don't give a **** about Freddie Gray.

 

[Spock]

I don't see how that is either a knee jerk reaction, as it is a statement about long-term nationwide trends and not about any individual case, or ignorant, as it can very easily be backed up with facts and data.

It is most illogical to assume that cops are statistically going beyond reasonable force, at the majority of their stops and arrests. 12 million arrests per year and only 400 fatal shootings is not statistically significant.

 

[chaseter]

You can't scream racism and promote it at the same time.

 

[Schlosser85]

You can't scream racism and promote it at the same time.

It's Sharpton and Jackson's bread and butter.

 

[Spock]

Some of the officers of this arrest are black, so I hope they don't unfairly get labeled Uncle Tom's by their community. They may get it worse than the white officers community wise.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

If you get shot by a cop, no civil rights leaders will be at your family's house. No riots will follow. No news coverage. Now tell me whose life matters more.

Well this certainly doesn't sound like a biased hypothetical situation.

 

[Sithborg]

Some of the officers of this arrest are black, so I hope they don't unfairly get labeled Uncle Tom's by their community. They may get it worse than the white officers community wise.

See, I don't think race is as big of an issue as it was in Ferguson. From what I've been reading, the Baltimore Police Department is still pretty bad. The idea of a "rough ride" is just despicable to me.

 

[Spock]

We are at a point where these civilian deaths are less important to the cause, but serve as a way to springboard into protests about the issues black people face in America.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

What happens if toxicology reveals heroin in the system of Gray? Especially if he was not a regular user. The cops may have stopped him for selling heroin but he ingested it to avoid arrest on drugs, and they charged him falsely with the possession of a legal knife.

 

[Teelie]

If the arrest was illegal it doesn't magically become legal because they find heroin in his system. It does not justify any of the events that occured.

 

[chaseter]

Well this certainly doesn't sound like a biased hypothetical situation.

That's not an answer.

 

[The Question]

How many threads on here or social media movements happening for dead white kids? It's disgusting that there is a black lives matter movement and someone here actually tried to rationalize it. ALL LIVES MATTER. But of course continue the riot over Freddie. Open the dialogue for everyone. Quit debasing all cops, other ethnicities, and hijacking actual needed movements like police brutality into a racist mouth diarrhea that evolves into riots that will be smashed by the media and forgotten in 6 months by everyone else. That benefits no one except the usual suspect race baiters that make money off of racism (Sharpton, Fox News, Jackson, etc).

There aren't social media movements for dead white kids because, as tragic as the death of any child is, such deaths are not the result of a systemic oppression that needs to be addressed. They're just random tragedies.

It continues to infuriate me when people accuse the act of pointing out racism as being racist.

The point of the Black Lives Matter movement is to make that statement to a society that does not believe it to be true. It is not, nor has it ever been, a statement of "black supremacy," and it is only interpreted as such by people who are frightened of the notion of the current status quo being questioned. "All Lives Matter" is not a statement of equality, it's showing up to a stranger's funeral and shouting "HOW DARE YOU MOURNE YOUR LOSS WHEN I TOO HAVE KNOWN GRIEF?!" before running off into the woods congratulating yourself for being so clever.

If you get shot by a cop, no civil rights leaders will be at your family's house. No riots will follow. No news coverage. Now tell me whose life matters more.

If a white guy gets shot by a cop, that cop will probably face criminal charges. Also, if you're a white guy, you're significantly less likely to get shot by a cop in the first place.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Remember When Donald Rumsfeld Stood Up for Rioting and Looting?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=31294341&postcount=257

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

If the arrest was illegal it doesn't magically become legal because they find heroin in his system. It does not justify any of the events that occured.

You may need to reread post as that was part of the point.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

That's not an answer.

I wasn't interested in disarming a loaded question.

 

[The Shape]

If the arrest was illegal it doesn't magically become legal because they find heroin in his system. It does not justify any of the events that occured.

Do you think a person sprinting away and fleeing from police offers upon making eye contact with them justifies the pursuit and eventual arrest? I'm not asking if it justifies his death, but their pursuit of Gray and his arrest.

The way I understand it, "reasonable suspicion" comes when a law enforcement official suspects that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity. So if police officers were patrolling an area known to have a high level of crime, and a person sees them and then begins to flee on foot (as if guilty of something), would the police officers not be justified in being suspicious of this person and then pursuing him to detain him?

Furthermore, if Gray had heroine in his system, that doesn't lead you to believe that he had recently broken the law (by possessing heroin) and was possibly about to do so again? Or that he was in possession of heroin when he saw the officers and ran away to either toss the heroin or swallow it? I know he didn't have a gun on him, but what if Gray DID have another weapon on him (besides the "legal" knife he had) when he ran from police, a weapon he might have intended to hurt someone with? Should officers let a suspicious man like this run free?

Judging by his arrest record, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to think this was the case. I've certainly never heard of anyone running away from police when they had no reason to do so...

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Do you think a person sprinting away and fleeing from police offers upon making eye contact with them justifies the arrest? I'm not asking if it justifies his death, but their pursuit of Gray and his arrest.

The way I understand it, "reasonable suspicion" comes when a law enforcement official suspects that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity. So if police officers were patrolling an area known to have a high level of crime, and a person sees them and then begins to flee on foot (as if guilty of something), would the police officers not be justified in being suspicious of this person and then pursuing him to detain him?

Furthermore, if Gray had heroine in his system, that doesn't lead you to believe that he had recently broken the law (by possessing heroin) and was possibly about to do so again? Or that he was in possession of heroin when he saw the officers and ran away to either toss the heroin or swallow it?

Judging by his arrest record, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to think this was the case. I've certainly never heard of anyone running away from police when they had no reason to do so...

Interesting points.

 

[Kelly]

Do you think a person sprinting away and fleeing from police offers upon making eye contact with them justifies the pursuit and eventual arrest? I'm not asking if it justifies his death, but their pursuit of Gray and his arrest.

The way I understand it, "reasonable suspicion" comes when a law enforcement official suspects that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity. So if police officers were patrolling an area known to have a high level of crime, and a person sees them and then begins to flee on foot (as if guilty of something), would the police officers not be justified in being suspicious of this person and then pursuing him to detain him?

Furthermore, if Gray had heroine in his system, that doesn't lead you to believe that he had recently broken the law (by possessing heroin) and was possibly about to do so again? Or that he was in possession of heroin when he saw the officers and ran away to either toss the heroin or swallow it? I know he didn't have a gun on him, but what if Gray DID have another weapon on him (besides the "legal" knife he had) when he ran from police, a weapon he might have intended to hurt someone with? Should officers let a suspicious man like this run free?

Judging by his arrest record, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to think this was the case. I've certainly never heard of anyone running away from police when they had no reason to do so...

Which is why they should allow the Federal prosecutors to go with Civil Rights laws being broken...it is something that they CAN FOR SURE get them on, what they have done now is hit them with charges that can just can't prove. You can't prove why, when, how or who actually committed homicide. So, you go FIRST with what you can prove...

 

[RockSP]

How many threads on here or social media movements happening for dead white kids? It's disgusting that there is a black lives matter movement and someone here actually tried to rationalize it. ALL LIVES MATTER. But of course continue the riot over Freddie. Open the dialogue for everyone. Quit debasing all cops, other ethnicities, and hijacking actual needed movements like police brutality into a racist mouth diarrhea that evolves into riots that will be smashed by the media and forgotten in 6 months by everyone else. That benefits no one except the usual suspect race baiters that make money off of racism (Sharpton, Fox News, Jackson, etc).

 

[Teelie]

Do you think a person sprinting away and fleeing from police offers upon making eye contact with them justifies the pursuit and eventual arrest? I'm not asking if it justifies his death, but their pursuit of Gray and his arrest.

The way I understand it, "reasonable suspicion" comes when a law enforcement official suspects that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity. So if police officers were patrolling an area known to have a high level of crime, and a person sees them and then begins to flee on foot (as if guilty of something), would the police officers not be justified in being suspicious of this person and then pursuing him to detain him?

Furthermore, if Gray had heroine in his system, that doesn't lead you to believe that he had recently broken the law (by possessing heroin) and was possibly about to do so again? Or that he was in possession of heroin when he saw the officers and ran away to either toss the heroin or swallow it? I know he didn't have a gun on him, but what if Gray DID have another weapon on him (besides the "legal" knife he had) when he ran from police, a weapon he might have intended to hurt someone with? Should officers let a suspicious man like this run free?

Judging by his arrest record, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to think this was the case. I've certainly never heard of anyone running away from police when they had no reason to do so...

Looking at the situation outside the bubble of hypotheticals and at what reality is... he was suspicious for being black and having a criminal record. As you so clearly pointed out, he had a criminal record and therefore was an easy target for some cops out to bust some "thugs."

We are all well aware the police are biased. We know they profile, are not above breaking the law or corruption and justifying their own criminal activity as necessary and when they see Gray, they just assumed he was doing something illegal. He almost certainly knew they would find something to charge him with and ran.

Running from the police, knowing they will arrest you regardless of your innocence isn't something only guilty people do. It's something someone who was innocent would do too if they knew they would be charged with a made up or trumped up charge. If I were targeted like he was I would probably run too, or at the very least try to hide from them even if I had not been committing any crime.

We have a justice system for a reason that specifically prohibts profiling and assuming someone is guilty on the spot of crime. Even if it's convienent to ignore it in the name of "preventing crime" because someone with a criminal history is present.

Unless there is some evidence he actually had been committing a crime recently, which the cops knew or suspected (outside of his being a black criminal), you can't say it was justified in chasing him down when he was destined to get arrested for just being there.

In your hypotheical there is no excuse. In reality there is all the reason in the world.

 

[Teelie]

Do people realize that saying "my cause is more important than your cause" not realize that they aren't the only ones who have something that needs addressing? Do you realize that fracturing and demanding you be special makes your cause just one more in a sea of causes that make progress that less possible overall? Do they realize that in saying "I'm different" they make themselves stand out and isolated from everyone else?

Does inclusion not matter anymore? Or is it only important when it happens to be something about your specific identity?

 

[Kelly]

Looking at the situation outside the bubble of hypotheticals and at what reality is... he was suspicious for being black and having a criminal record. As you so clearly pointed out, he had a criminal record and therefore was an easy target for some cops out to bust some "thugs."

We are all well aware the police are biased. We know they profile, are not above breaking the law or corruption and justifying their own criminal activity as necessary and when they see Gray, they just assumed he was doing something illegal. He almost certainly knew they would find something to charge him with and ran.

Running from the police, knowing they will arrest you regardless of your innocence isn't something only guilty people do. It's something someone who was innocent would do too if they knew they would be charged with a made up or trumped up charge. If I were targeted like he was I would probably run too, or at the very least try to hide from them even if I had not been committing any crime.

We have a justice system for a reason that specifically prohibts profiling and assuming someone is guilty on the spot of crime. Even if it's convienent to ignore it in the name of "preventing crime" because someone with a criminal history is present.

Unless there is some evidence he actually had been committing a crime recently, which the cops knew or suspected (outside of his being a black criminal), you can't say it was justified in chasing him down when he was destined to get arrested for just being there.

In your hypotheical there is no excuse. In reality there is all the reason in the world.

And right there, you laid out a great beginning to a Federal Prosecutor's opening statement in a Civil Rights Trial.....instead you have a young State Prosecutor that has taken on her own agenda and placed it upon this case and has grossly overcharged in a case where you don't know, when, why, how or who committed the crimes. On top of that you went before the news media and totally played your hand showing that it is a fight in the political ring, rather than a fight in the attempt at justice. She in her own words is fighting for justice for herself, not for the people (all the people of Maryland) that she has given an oath to serve. It is amazing to me that you could have done EXACTLY what they wanted to do, calm the storm, had they simply gone with an indictment that they could back up and allow the Federal Prosecution to do their thing first.

Apparently we learned NOTHING from the Rodney King case and we may very well have the same exact result. So ridiculous...

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Ya it was very stupid to charge them with what they did and go out and make a big deal in the media. They're going to riot again when these cops get off on charges they were never going to get them with in the first place. Stupidity all around

 

[Kelly]

Ya it was very stupid to charge them with what they did and go out and make a big deal in the media. They're going to riot again when these cops get off on charges they were never going to get them with in the first place. Stupidity all around

I see this all the time, Prosecutors in Florida are notorious for this stupidity....just trying to win the big case. I JUST DON'T GET THE STUPIDITY. It drives me nuts.

1. Because the officers should be held accountable. To the fullest extent. They should be behind bars, but you get them on charges YOU CAN WIN. Not the charges that the multitudes who are screaming the loudest "want" to hear.
2. Shut the hell up and try the case.

 

[The Shape]

Looking at the situation outside the bubble of hypotheticals and at what reality is... he was suspicious for being black and having a criminal record. As you so clearly pointed out, he had a criminal record and therefore was an easy target for some cops out to bust some "thugs."

What you've described isn't "reality". It's your perspective or opinion, imaging a scenario that might be quite different than what actually went down, or their reasoning for pursuing Gray.

Let's remember he was arrested by cops on bicycles. Do you think they had police scanners in their bike helmets that used facial recognition software to scan Gray's face and pull up his criminal record, and then they decided he'd be an easy target?

Or do you think they maybe pursued and detained Gray because he sprinted away from them as if he was guilty of something, and they then had reason to be suspicious of this man and what he had done / was doing / was about to do?

We are all well aware the police are biased. We know they profile, are not above breaking the law or corruption and justifying their own criminal activity as necessary and when they see Gray, they just assumed he was doing something illegal. He almost certainly knew they would find something to charge him with and ran.

We know that SOME police are biased. We know that SOME police are corrupt, but you are making an extremely broad generalization that is based on your own perspective and opinion, and not rooted in fact -- at least not based on what we know of this situation YET. How would you feel if someone said, "We are aware that black people are criminals and thugs"? Would that be fair perspective to have?

If I was a police officer patrolling an area with a high level of crime and a person spotted me and then fled, I think I would be justified in assuming that this person was involved in some kind of illegal activity, and I would certainly want to pursue him to find out why he fled or what was going on.

If you were a police officer in the same situation, would you not do the same, regardless of the person's skin color? Or do you think that when a cop sees something suspicious (like a person spotting them and sprinting away), that they should just give them a pass because they hadn't explicitly seen him breaking a law yet?

Remember that police exist not only to detain and punish people who have broken the law, but they also exist to prevent people from breaking the law, along with investigating suspicious people and activity. To use an extreme scenario, if the police had let Gray escape with no consequence and he then went on to murder someone, who would be in the wrong there?

Running from the police, knowing they will arrest you regardless of your innocence isn't something only guilty people do. It's something someone who was innocent would do too if they knew they would be charged with a made up or trumped up charge. If I were targeted like he was I would probably run too, or at the very least try to hide from them even if I had not been committing any crime.

Reports thus far indicate that Gray made eye contact with police and then fled unprovoked. Until proven otherwise, I'm not sure what you mean by "targeted like he was". It doesn't seem like police tried to arrest him and then he ran. Rather, all reports indicate it was quite the opposite.

Furthermore, if you were innocent of a crime and fled from police anyway upon making eye contact with them or even being approached by them, you'd only be making this worse for yourself and could possibly find yourself in a confrontation with police.

Do you not realize that fleeing from police under any circumstances can be considered breaking the law, regardless of other crimes committed? A criminal charge of fleeing or evading the police may be either a misdemeanor or felony charge, depending on the circumstances. For example, fleeing the police in a vehicle is a felony charge, but eluding the police on foot is usually a misdemeanor.

Also, you seem to indicate that you believe that the police actually have the power to arrest anyone they want at any time with made up charges. Does this mean you honestly believe that all 18 of Gray's previous arrests and convictions were not justified? That each time, police planted evidence, lied, forged documents, or bribed witnesses?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/freddiegray.asp

Unless there is some evidence he actually had been committing a crime recently, which the cops knew or suspected (outside of his being a black criminal), you can't say it was justified in chasing him down when he was destined to get arrested for just being there.

Your certainty is quite disturbing, that if he hadn't ran, he would have been arrested for just standing there. Sadly, we'll never know if you're right because he did run, which only served to give police reasonable suspicion that he was up to something.