superheroes vs. the laws of physics

[Trask]

..or at least asphyxiation.

Damn you stop correcting my spelling, you are making me look stupad.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

You're confusing weight and mass. Take two astronauts in space who are virtually weightless... just because they're weightless doesn't mean that one ramming into the other one or throwing a punch isn't going to hurt or cause damage. They're weightless, but they didn't lose any of their mass.

Actually if you hit someone in space it will hurt them but as there will be no resistance, it should not hurt them anywhere near what it would when governed by gravity. Plus if a weightless person hit another then he too should be flying backwards....unless he is propelling himself

 

[Varient]

I had a thought, Kitty Pryde/Shadowcat/Sprite/whothehellknowsanymore turns intangible so she can slip through matter, so how can she breath? I ask this because at different points shes had to hold her breath while walking through something, but during the Morlock Massacare she was put into a phased state from which she couldn't unphase. She was like that for a few hours/days (dunno the length of time) so how did that work?

Good question.

The way I understand it,... she can breath in a phased state in air.

Everytime she holds her breath she's gone thru things other than air.

So when she was stuck that way she was able to breath.

 

[deemar325]

Geeks are sexy. I luv a man who knows what he's talking about..makes me tingly in very nice places.

My ego is now intact!!

ookami gods gift to comicbook nerds.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

Wolverine & Hulk:

Why the hell doesn't Wolverine's lungs collapse when he is punched in the chest from a blow from the Hulk that could bring down a building? I can understand his bones as there is no air for them to give way with the adamantium around them. But his insides should burst when the Hulk hits him.

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Wolverine & Hulk:

Why the hell doesn't Wolverine's lungs collapse when he is punched in the chest from a blow from the Hulk that could bring down a building? I can understand his bones as there is no air for them to give way with the adamantium around them. But his insides should burst when the Hulk hits him.

That is a very good question to which I believe the answer is Wolverine is so popular he defies all the laws of reality....

But the lungs are encased by his ribs so that can be understood, however his innards should come out of his nose...plus just like wheras Senna died when he hot a wall at 260 km/h, Wolverine's brain should be smashed to a pulp every time he gets a punch from a mad Hulk.

 

[BAH HUMBBUG!]

That is a very good question to which I believe the answer is Wolverine is so popular he defies all the laws of reality....

But the lungs are encased by his ribs so that can be understood, however his innards should come out of his nose...plus just like wheras Senna died when he hot a wall at 260 km/h, Wolverine's brain should be smashed to a pulp every time he gets a punch from a mad Hulk.

Yes they are, but his lungs are not solid they are air compartments nor does the adamantium form around them, they form around his rib bones. His lungs should be mush.

 

[gildea]

With regards to cykes blast doesn't he absorb his own force beams as such any energy directed back will be absorbed by him because his mutation is designed to process the energy resulting from his optic blasts (which is kinetic in nature)?

 

[unstoppable]

heres a question how does hulk purple pants stay on when he hulks out

 

[supermarvelman]

they're super-elastic

 

[MJB]

I think all this physics applying to the superhero world is really moot, since humans with Superpowers doesn't exist we'll never know how real world physics would apply. The laws of Physics are made to be broken and until a person shows up with Superpowers and breaks them we can debate this all day long.

 

[Tropico]

In regards to Nightcrawler, he opens up miniature portals through a version of Hell (or wherever his father's dimension is) which is the reason for the fould-smelling brimstone clouds that are a signature of his 'porting. It is no way like Magik's "stepping discs" where she makes a portal that leads to Limbo and then people have to walk to get to their destination; distance, of course, is scaled. His teleportation is instantaneous. The "bamf" sound is made to indicate the in-rush of air and then the air being moved aside when he appears in the location.

His camouflage ability was once described as him being constantly enveloped by the dimension he 'port's through and thus why he always looks like he's shadows and then turns kinda transpatent when in darkness/shadows.

In regards to the Summers brothers...it's been said that their genetics are similar enough that their powers don't affect each other. Some writers use it as them canceling each other out, others've used it as being aborbed and still others have shown it as being absorbed and amplified when blasting. As far as I know Cyke absorbs solar energy while Havok absorbs cosmic rays that are constantly bombarding the Earth.

Powers that baffle me:
-Mr. Fantastic's stretching.
-Most heroes that have some kind of armor (Colossus and Ice Man for example)
-Storm's discriminatory absorption/channeling of lightning/current (natural, yes; "artificial", no)

 

[War Lord]

In regards to Nightcrawler, he opens up miniature portals through a version of Hell (or wherever his father's dimension is) which is the reason for the fould-smelling brimstone clouds that are a signature of his 'porting. It is no way like Magik's "stepping discs" where she makes a portal that leads to Limbo and then people have to walk to get to their destination; distance, of course, is scaled. His teleportation is instantaneous. The "bamf" sound is made to indicate the in-rush of air and then the air being moved aside when he appears in the location.

His camouflage ability was once described as him being constantly enveloped by the dimension he 'port's through and thus why he always looks like he's shadows and then turns kinda transpatent when in darkness/shadows.

In regards to the Summers brothers...it's been said that their genetics are similar enough that their powers don't affect each other. Some writers use it as them canceling each other out, others've used it as being aborbed and still others have shown it as being absorbed and amplified when blasting. As far as I know Cyke absorbs solar energy while Havok absorbs cosmic rays that are constantly bombarding the Earth.

Powers that baffle me:
-Mr. Fantastic's stretching.
-Most heroes that have some kind of armor (Colossus and Ice Man for example)
-Storm's discriminatory absorption/channeling of lightning/current (natural, yes; "artificial", no)

Reed Richard's powers coould be explained in the sense that his cells might separate apart from each other.

 

[PhotoJones]

Good question.

The way I understand it,... she can breath in a phased state in air.

Everytime she holds her breath she's gone thru things other than air.

So when she was stuck that way she was able to breath.

when kitty was stuck in a phased state, where was she? wouldn't she phase down into the earth or something?

i remember the issues, but i don't feel like looking them up.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

If you were to apply the laws of physics, several super hero's just really couldn't exist. Or really just exist at most levels.
Case in point, the Flash, or any other super speedster. Once you start accelerating, the only way for your atoms to hold together is to start absorbing energy around themselves. (Though most people think they just absorb gluons) But that creates a problem, since all atoms and structures have activation energies that make "windows." Basically putting they change their form, or create new forms. The Flash, if he were moving at say 30% the speed of light, would probably just be a floating mass of several super heated gasses, and would never reach the plasma stage, since he probably wouldn't last long enough. Same with Superman, or any other myriad of speedsters. And I won't use the infinite energy/mass theory here. But the same problem goes with energy wielders. Human Torch, when really powered up, would destroy his own mass, turning himself into gas, and there's a good chance Superman, being the nearly unlimited Solar battery he sometimes seems to be, would do the same just by standing in the sun. (Though chances are the energy build up eventually just cuts off at a natural point in all truth.) Now, superstrength could go around, since it kind of depends on the atomic bond structure to determine the actual durability of the mass at hand. Lifting tons of weight is something skin could never stand up to, obviously, but certain metals can.
As for low level energy beams, such as Cyclop's eye beams. Those sorts of energies exist. Red Sun energy is so much cooler than yellow sun energy. True, if it could melt steel, it SHOULD melt his head. Unless he had an errosive energy source close to, or part of, him that decreases heavy amounts of heat energy. Of course, his eye beams may simply charge atoms that it comes into contact with and fills them quickly to activation energies. But then, of course, he really shouldn't be able to hold that power since it would do the same thing to him. As for the recoil? Laser has near zero recoil. The "pressure" you feel from high end light sort of things, are really more like chemical composition change. Lightning would have little force, if it didn't change the air into plasma on the way down. You basically turn on light, light comes out, goes in one direction massless with little to zero recoil (measuring something that small is near impossible, so it's just assumed that light gives nigh none recoil force, though it's still there), and light just dissapates. (Let me restate that. Light GIVES recoil is small small quantities to atoms that have greater energy than the initial photon. Or else the photon is unresponsibe, and bounces without transfer of energy, so no recoil. So only bigger atoms gain "recoil" and that's only because they absorb the photons and just ALMOST continue the course, but since they're stronger than the initial photon, they just stray back. Hence recoil.) Lasers give pressure only because of the heat that's generated. The photons in lasers don't hurt you, the heat generated from the influx of photons into your atoms does.
Invisible Woman. Has to be refractive light structures. But really, I doubt you can move massless objects with your mind. Fundamental forces of the universe are only subject to it's corresponding nature. Photons (representative massless particle governing electromagnetic activity) are only attracted (for the most part) to electromagnetic sources. Unless, of course, that it started with a propellent force strong enough to send it in one or more directions. It's also repelled by it's own force. That's why light can be refracted or contained in a single room. (Turn on flashlight in room, it doesn't go through the wall.) But really, since it can't be slowed down or sped up, that lends to the idea that it can't be moved physically. So it's kind of... hard to say that she literally refracts light around herself. That would be more like... bending fabrics around yourself so that the space you occupy is so small, relatively, that you just seem invisible. But then you get into the whole invisible shield things and such, which lends to telekinesis, and I won't even go there. THAT'S a whole other issue to be discussed about.
Someone said the Vision I believe. He flat out DOESN'T work. You'd literally have to become smaller than sub particles, and unaffected by the four fundamental forces of the universe to be able to pass through solid objects. Or at least have enough energy in your atoms to simply overpower them. So, no. Vision just doesn't work.
Vibranium. A mass that can just absorb and dispel energy. If it did that, it couldn't really hold to itself, since the vibrational properties it has would just destabilize, and if something hit it, it would most likely bust up it's bonds. So yeah, one clump, but weak as crap in thought. OR, if it's vibrational properties just strengthen it's bonds (which would be most likely really) it just would be a REALLY hard piece of metal.
Captain America couldn't exist. But this has been covered in threads probably a billion times over by now.
Someone mentioned falling, so that's cool.
Hulk, or any other characters like him. The only CONCIEVABLE way, is that they pull in "Free roam" particles, that never gained any form, and he somehow reconnected them to create his mass. Though it would require such a ridiculous amount of particles, that he'd probably demolish something to do it at all, or cause things to explode as atoms broke apart as he stole particles from them. Mass conservation, pure and simple. Hulk is fun, he just couldn't exist. Question said that Ultimate Hulk is more likely. And while Ultimate Hulk is hungry immediately, and Question insinuated this, so I'm just restating it, Ultimate Hulk still couldn't work.
Nightcrawler. This is where the whole quantum physics thing REALLY gets into play. If string theory is true, he may just become out of tune, temporarily pulling his space, and the space of another dimension, into phase, and switching places. This would circumvent mass and energy conservation, and explain how he teleports. So if he's "strumming" around the "strings" he could concievably move at speeds that seem like teleporting when he comes back into vibrational sequence. So it wouldn't be miniwormholes, since he's technically not bending the "fabric" of reality to fold and match upon itself. And even if he did open them, the "holes" would be so small and short that it probably COULD only suck him in. But bending reality would require an immense amount of energy. The "suction power" of a black hole is directly proportional to it's size. Case in point, the man made particle sized one, it only drew particles toward it, and not even into it since it didn't last long enough. And it really didn't disturb it's "field" all that much. So Kurt making black holes isn't THAT far fetched. It's just the energy requirement. But it's more likely strings.
Magic. That would be outside of science. Or at least MAGIC magic would be. Such as making signs that breach dimensions and such. Since that really just breaks the laws of reality. If the fabric were that fragile, a kid who mumbles and draws circles would have destroyed Earth by now.
Though it's more biological. Healing characters. To heal quickly, they'd have to have the raw materials inside their body, and super fast cells that move several hundreds times normal cells. Basically, if they got their arm lobbed off, they NEED 45 lbs of material from another part of their body to fix it. I guess that's physics too, since it's a conservation thing. And someone mentioned Wolverine's bones. Veins and arteries move in and out of his bones. So unless they removed his skeleton, covered it, and did a bad job putting it back in, he's pretty safe in the blood cell department.
Vangard made a Spider Man thing. And I agree, except that it's most likely he sticks like most insects, via weak chemical residue bond. But through gloves? Or clothes? Doesn't happen. And his weight would probably bring down a few walls. Though not TOO many, since he's usually hanging off walls outdoors. It's just LANDING on them that gets me. If he flings himself up against most walls, that's a lot of concentrated force and mass hitting the wall.

Flight is loopy. Altering gravitons would require an immense energy source. It'd just be easier to say they used some form of anti graviton force. And they could empower it to just basically cause the graviton's superior energy to just thrust them places.

And... for now, I'm done.

 

[Venom.Symbiote]

I had a thought, Kitty Pryde/Shadowcat/Sprite/whothehellknowsanymore turns intangible so she can slip through matter, so how can she breath? I ask this because at different points shes had to hold her breath while walking through something, but during the Morlock Massacare she was put into a phased state from which she couldn't unphase. She was like that for a few hours/days (dunno the length of time) so how did that work?

Kitty has to hold her breath while walking through something for the same reason we have to hold our breath going through water - there's no air to breathe. If she's going through something solid, there's no air between the molecules for her to breathe so she has no choice but to hold her breath. I think Marvel did this so she couldn't phase through the Earth an come out in China. Now if she was a DC character, she could and their explanation would be "She uses the Phase Force so it's possible". I like how Marvel limits their characters, makes them more believable.

 

[Fantasyartist]

Apropos of Spidey not breaking somebody's neck when he hits them- the answer is simple- he pulls his punches( as ever Marvel hero up to Thor does- against any foe save the most powerful such as the Hulk or the ice Giants. Even in the most experienced hands, super powers are more dangerous than any loaded gun- as the Human Torch found out when he accidentally burned Storm some years back!

 

[Fantasyartist]

BTW, This whole business of physics has got me thinking. in FF#249, Gladiator, Praetor of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard is shown lifting up the entire Baxter Building. Reed is made to say that even if he could do so, (Gladiator posesses strength on the level of Thor-or maybe even the Hulk)the building should fall of its own weight-interesting conundrum there. Gladiator in the same issue has disposed of the Thing with no more than a single punch, withstood virtually Nova heat from the Torch's flame, but in FF#250, he can't dent Captain America's shield( composed of an adamantium/vibranium composite alloy) Admittedly even the Hulk can't bend Cap's shield- neither can less powerful entities such as Mr Hyde or The Crimson Dynamo).
This is intriguing to say the least!

 

[yahman]

Cyclops: there's no recoil from a laser, why would there be recoil from Cyclops's blast? There is only recoil from something that has mass.

The 'concussive particles' (that do not exist in reality, although you could make a case for the graviton) comes from a higher dimension. There fore Cykes feels nothing.

 

[yahman]

I think usually the most unrealistic aspect of a hero's powers is not the powers themselves, but how he got them in the first place. (E.g., bomb goes off, and instead of killing you, you get powers. You're exposed to radiation, and instead of getting cancer, you get powers. Etc.) But I have to give the writers a pass on this one -- if they weren't willing to pretend that it's a lot easier to get super-powers than it is in real life, then the Marvel and DC Universes would be a lot less interesting.

A lot of good stuff here, but futurist such as Warren Ellis and Mark Miller, and Grant Morisson are beginning to adress this problem with more modern weird science. Instead of mutation by radiation / magical forces, writers are using more bizarre physics such as Quantum mechanics (Wave particle duality), higher Dimensions and nano tech. I've done quite a bit of research on these area's, and our limited knowledge allows them to provide exceptatble explanitions for Super powers.

 

[yahman]

quote]

I dont want to be an ass, because a lot of this is really good, but you are incorrect about some of this.

For example, quantuam mechanics perdicts that photons exist in all possible states at the same time. The only reason we cannot see these states, is due to our limited comprehension of reality. But photons can do a lot, that you have suggested is impossible. E.G. photons slow down consideraby when passing through solids, hence refraction. Photons can be bent, especially in the presence of high gravity, (i.e. near a black hole). I've heard its possible make a photon do a figure oif eight around a black hole. As wave particle duality, predicts paritcles in all possible states at once, it means that every photon in existence is currently slowing down and bending at the same time.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

I dont want to be an ass, because a lot of this is really good, but you are incorrect about some of this.

For example, quantuam mechanics perdicts that photons exist in all possible states at the same time. The only reason we cannot see these states, is due to our limited comprehension of reality. But photons can do a lot, that you have suggested is impossible. E.G. photons slow down consideraby when passing through solids, hence refraction. Photons can be bent, especially in the presence of high gravity, (i.e. near a black hole). I've heard its possible make a photon do a figure oif eight around a black hole. As wave particle duality, predicts paritcles in all possible states at once, it means that every photon in existence is currently slowing down and bending at the same time.

Don't stress it. Physics is my life study, I'm used to people having something FAR worse to say other than, "Something about this isnt' right." Besides, conversation and comparison of physics is something I enjoy.

I didn't say photons can't alter direction, I gave an example of basic light mechanics, to show the way light normally behaves. In fact, light USUALLY is altered in direction due to external sources. Like the flashlight. But really, it prefers straigh line movement, unless it's in a huge relativistic event, (i.e. a Black Hole) However, quantum mechanics doesn't exactly mean photon as in light. A photon, or in this cause, the photon of every shape and size, is just a particle unit of electromagnetic representation. Since a photon is the representative particle of the fundamental force of electromagnetivity. Where a gluon is strong energy, vector boson is weak energy, and graviton (allegedly, since it hasn't truly been proven) is gravity. However, photon are attracted and repelled by it's brothers too, and most people will confuse particles of other sorts for photons. But in truth, photons can only exist as photons. But in "refraction" light doesn't slow down. Photons being a basic basic basic particle, yield an extremely low energy. So if you were to flash a flashlight on the wall, there's a good chance 99.99999% of those particles will just be absorbed into the atomic structure of the wall until the wall eventually releases the energy slowly, and outside of wave function. (Hence, that's why the wall doesn't actually light up since it can't send photons in heavy waves in any given direction. And that's why walls get hot as a lot of light is shone on them, because light feeds the energy in atoms, atoms vibrate more, more vibration makes atoms hot.)

And photons don't literally slow down, they run into barriers. Though some have hypothesized that photons literally can lose their own electromagnetic energy. As for photons slowing down, or even bending though flat out without some large outside source? They can't really, since light is dependent on total outside source interactment since light prefers wave movement.


However, Wave particle duality is a little different from what you've represented there. It just states how particles, mainly photons, can be massless, yet cause and be part of physical reactions. Eistein himself had this great experiment, where he took several different types of metal, and shined a light on them. The massless light literally knocked electrons out of sync with the atom, and caused an electric current as the electron tried to return to it's normal place. There's been others, but too many to just go through. But you are right that it deals a good deal with the actual wave action of particles themselves. Though I am aware of the wave particle duality experiments that deal with gravity directly affecting particles.

As for that black hole figure eight thing, you DEFINITELY need to PM me about that.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

BTW, This whole business of physics has got me thinking. in FF#249, Gladiator, Praetor of the Shi'ar Imperial Guard is shown lifting up the entire Baxter Building. Reed is made to say that even if he could do so, (Gladiator posesses strength on the level of Thor-or maybe even the Hulk)the building should fall of its own weight-interesting conundrum there. Gladiator in the same issue has disposed of the Thing with no more than a single punch, withstood virtually Nova heat from the Torch's flame, but in FF#250, he can't dent Captain America's shield( composed of an adamantium/vibranium composite alloy) Admittedly even the Hulk can't bend Cap's shield- neither can less powerful entities such as Mr Hyde or The Crimson Dynamo).
This is intriguing to say the least!

As for the Baxter Building, MOST things that people do to buildings in comics should have them disentigrate. Especially lifting them. Without any way to distribute it's weight properly, buildings crumble. Holding them on corners would make them snap and such. So yeah, Reed's right there. But Gladiator is basically a rip off of Superman, and Superman holds buildings together with his bioelectric aura or some gimmick like that. It would be like moving a planet, Moving a planet through your hands would SHATTER a planet. So it's possible for the same thing to happen. As for Cap's sheild. I've definitely gone over the crap his shield is. And Gladiator's power is literally translated from how he views himself. If Gladiator doesn't feel supremely awesome about himself, he isn't as powerful as normal. That, and it's considered that Captain America's shield is considered one of the most durable things ever. And King Thor dented it, but King Thor is probably a mite bit more powerful than Gladiator.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

The 'concussive particles' (that do not exist in reality, although you could make a case for the graviton) comes from a higher dimension. There fore Cykes feels nothing.

'Concussive particles' are considered far more hypothetical than gravitons themselves (which most consider hypothetical and unproven as is). And most people don't really accept that concussive particles can only come into existance from a higher energy plane through the physical interactions dragging them into our plane.

 

[D-scythe]

Um, in terms of Cyke, I'm surprised no one mentioned that recoil is caused by the conversation of momentum. However, the strength of his concussive blasts would be mostly due to kinetic energy. Momentum = mass*velocity. Kinetic energy = mass*velocity^2. Thus, you can reduce momentum (by decreasing mass) but at the same time VASTLY increasing the strength of his attack (by increasing velocity, which is then squared).

For example, a 10 MJ attack (about the same strength as most 120 mm cannon rounds from main battle tanks) can be achieved with only 2.23 kg m/s recoil, which is equivalent to throwing a baseball (approx 150 g) at 15 m/s, or 54 kmph. However, the optic beam itself must have a velocity of about 4472 m/s, and a total mass of about half a gram (0.0005 kg).

BTW, does anyone know how fast Cyke's beams go?

In any case, there are also other ways to work around recoil. Mass drivers/rail guns typically create minimal recoil for maximum destructive force, for example, simply through magnetic interactions between the projectile and it's launcher.

And there's some really interesting stuff here. Good thread. You guys should go to the "WTF moments" thread and try to explain some of the things there, haha.