Syrian Refugees

[NHawk19]

With the amount of refugees fleeing is it time the US stepped in/stepped up?

I've seen Aylan's picture. I'm not posting it but his story puts a real face on this issue. ISIS has been terrorizing the people in those countries and destroying their heritage. They're abandoning their homes and fleeing through-out Europe looking to escape the violence.

The question is simple is it time to send in more troops to try and stabilize the area?

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Didn't sending troops in start this whole mess?

 

[Lilbaz]

153k people died yesterday, all over the world. America can't save them all especially not with troops.
What is happening in syria is horrific but it is part of a wider religious war in the middle east. The west interfering only makes matters worse. Which side do you choose? Sunni or shia? If you are just going to police the area look how well that went in afghanistan and iraq.

The best thing europe could do is instead of accepting refugees. They should build camps in libya and when finding a boat full of migrants take it to the camp then scuttle it. If the refugees realised that they would not be accepted in europe they will stop risking their lives making the journey. Saudi Arabia, uae, qatar etc... Might want to start taking refugees as well. They did help fund isis in the first place.

Emotive pictures of dead children really don't help.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

America should not (even though they already have) send boots to the ground in Syria because we would be strengthening Assad's brutal dictatorship. ISIL may have the spotlight on for their brutality, but Assad and his predecessor's dictatorships have brutally killed over 100,000 people and displaced over hundreds of thousands more. What sparked protests against Assad, if anybody cares to remember, was Assad thugs torturing and murdering a little boy, cutting off his penis and tearing out his finger nails. Their brutality is only mirrored in ISIL. Through this conflict, we have made allies of Iran, and strengthened our ties with other ME countries. Unfortunately, US is already involved in spying, bombing, helping their allies in Jordan, Iraq, and Turkey. This has little to do with Sunni vs Shia as Lilbaz mentioned above, and way more to do with geopolitical chess.

The conflict stems from two main sources:

1) Invasion and dismantling of Iraq's dictatorship whose purpose was: Securing Energy and Security Interests, not just for the US, but for Europe, and our Golden Calves, Israel and Saudi Arabia. It was not a total victory as it also strengthened Iran's influence in Iraq, created porous borders, and lead to the creation of the autonomous Kurdish areas (which causes tensions with Syria, Iran, and Turkey).

2) Destabilize Assad's regime to weaken allies of Iran and Russia, our (American) enemy, some Euro Nations, and Israel's enemy. This power vacuum, along with an insecure and volatile Iraq, led to the creation of ISIL and other splinter groups.

The refugees are not just of Syrian origin, there are thousands of Palestinians among them as well. Forced to flee to Syria because of Israel's ethnic cleansing.
-

 

[Marvolo]

We need to stay out of civil wars. We got involved in Korea and Vietnam, and look how well those wars turned out. Not well at all. It's terrible what is going on in Syria but our troops being sacrificed for a religious civil war isn't going to solve a damn thing.

 

[Taarna]

I say train those able to fight to be be soldiers then support them back to fight ISIS, supported by USA Air power, the Navy, and supplies.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I have to say that while I am not unsympathetic to the refugee plight, some of these asylum seekers seem to be treating asylum as if they are shopping for the best hotel. They get to Europe and then shop around for the country with the best benefits.

 

[terry78]

Though in most cases when we here in the US get involved in something it's often a damned if we do, damned if we don't scenario, I'd prefer if we just be damned if we don't this time.

 

[DeadPresident]

I have to say that while I am not unsympathetic to the refugee plight, some of these asylum seekers seem to be treating asylum as if they are shopping for the best hotel. They get to Europe and then shop around for the country with the best benefits.

The West's civility is their downfall in cases like this. It sounded like right wing shock rhetoric at first but at this rate half of Europe probably will be under Islamic government by the turn of the next century.

 

[Marvolo]

The West's civility is their downfall in cases like this. It sounded like right wing shock rhetoric at first but at this rate half of Europe probably will be under Islamic government by the turn of the next century.

Unlikely. We didn't let Germany conquer and hold Europe and we wouldn't let any other country or radical group do it.

 

[DeadPresident]

Unlikely. We didn't let Germany conquer and hold Europe and we wouldn't let any other country or radical group do it.

This isn't a military invasion though, it's going to be longer and slower, and it'll happen through a case of pure statistics in all likelihood. I'm not talking about Islamic extremists, I just mean by virtue of an Islamic contingent large enough to hold significant political sway.

There are already traces of it in parts of England and France, it's an anomalous issue at the moment but it'll become more prevalent as time goes by. And at the moment the West is at its most docile, despots in Africa, Asia or the Middle east simply eviscerate anyone that seems to encroach on their territory, but the Western countries want to be seen to be moral and ethical arbiters so they try to assimilate foreigners, at one point or another it'll come back to haunt them.

The truth is resources are becoming more and more scarce, and we've gotten to the point where people are actually fleeing countries that are war-torn and heading for the better countries in Europe. The population displacement will be too rapid and erratic to predict all the outcomes, but what it means is the Western countries will become the attractive destinations. Are they ready to welcome each and every citizen from their immediate surroundings?

 

[jonathancrane]

We need to stay out of civil wars. We got involved in Korea and Vietnam, and look how well those wars turned out. Not well at all. It's terrible what is going on in Syria but our troops being sacrificed for a religious civil war isn't going to solve a damn thing.

This x100

 

[Thundercrack85]

This isn't the Umayyad conquest of Europe. These are just normal people trying to escape a bad situation in their home country.

Having said that, Europe can't just let everyone in. There needs to be some sort of order. A unified response. Germany has apparently discarded the Dublin Convention, which has created a whole new problem.

Traditionally, in order to be classified as a refugee, you have to apply for asylum the moment you enter a country where you are safe. The Syrians aren't doing that. The moment they reach Europe, they trek to the richer EU countries, placing a disproportionate burden on them.

It's also put real stress on countries like Greece, Macedonia, and Hungary, which now have to foot the bill for Germany's decisions.

 

[DeadPresident]

I'm not saying it's a conquest, I'm just saying that the rate of displacement is going to occur faster than any government is going to plan on dealing with it properly.

The locals aren't going to react positively to this kind of phenomenon either, so there'll probably be an increase in xenophobic and right-wing sentiments, which are already on the rise. It's a can of worms waiting to pop at the moment.

And Europeans will be caught in the middle, the West is constantly acting as moral arbiter, so now they're going to be seen as an unconditional safe haven for anyone that doesn't like the situation in their own country. Africa and the Middle East are the main contributors, with extreme and harmful regimes causing more and more migration into North America and Western Europe. Something will have to give somewhere after another 3-5 years of this. And when the host countries give an inch, a fair few of the refugees are going to take a mile. Tensions are going to rise because of this kind of thing. It takes countries years to prepare for the temporary influx of tourists during a sporting event, what's going to happen logistically and to infrastructural needs when this happens instantaneously?

 

[Thundercrack85]

The Europeans need to deal with ISIS and Assad. In the long run it will cost a lot less to take them out than to take care of millions of Syrian migrants over the next ten years.

Germany once nearly conquered half the world. Surely a 21st century German military with European and American support can take out a third world dictator and the Neo Taliban.

 

[DeadPresident]

But will they? I doubt it. The global consensus is that any evil in the world is the West's concern to sort out. The West brought that expectation on themselves my meddling and disregarding sovereignty when it suits them, but at the same time they've championed this notion of the sanctity of life and become militarily soft.

I don't think anyone beside the USA under the leadership of a serious hawk would have the balls to do anything about ISIS. And there'll be massive public resistance after how the "war on terror" ended for the US, especially considering the current economic environment. IMO, nobody is going to go to the military lengths necessary to deal with ISIS or any dictator at the moment, not for another few years - should the global economy stabilize by then.

Your assertion is right, but humans have a habit of choosing whatever option is more immediately palatable than the one with the best longterm implications.

 

[NotFadeAway]

It's funny that WW2 is referenced here because in reality, after that conflict, Europe itself doesn't have any real fight in them to this day. They don't have the fortitude to do what would be necessary to cleanse the world of ISIS. On the flip side of that, I think Japan is itching for a brawl and would samurai those pieces of trash to the feudal days and back. But that's neither here nor there.

The savage thing to do would be to close their borders off to the refugees, possibly supply weaponry on an appropriate scale, and force them to fight off ISIS. The real life version of the Joker pool stick scene in Dark Knight.

 

[DeadPresident]

Supplying weaponry is unfortunately the worst thing they can do, because it'll be in the hands of those fighting ISIS at first and eventually land up in the hands of the next renegade force trying to control the region. You also run the risk of helping equip ISIS if they defeat any of the militias engaging them.

If the West wants to intervene they'll need to do it either with feet on the ground or systematic and extensive air assaults.

 

[ThePreface]

Sending more troops? Are you insane? The rise of ISIL is an indirect consequence of the power vacuum created by Iraq War. If the US wants to help send their CIA jackals to train and fund moderate rebels like the FSA (with no strings attached), reconcile Sunni and Shia states (Saudi Arabia and Iran) through diplomacy, stop giving Israel three billion (yes billion) dollars a year, and obviously take in the refugees like they did with the Vietnamese in the 80's (they **** the bed in both instances). Taking out the Ba'ath party and Saddam for oil under the guise of a human rights mission was the worst contemporary crime in this country's history. In the end all it did was destabilize the region. So while Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds kill each other in a free-for-all certain people make money from back room deals. The Bush Regime and their ilk profiteered and the poor and middle class paid for it with the trillion dollar surplus that was left behind at the end of Clinton's second term no to mention innocent Christians, Muslims, and Jews caught in crossfires in the Levant.

 

[chamber-music]

The Syrian Civil War has unfortunately turned into another proxy war between the West and Russia.

Russia has been backing the Assad regime and supplying them with weapons.
U.S and Europe were backing the rebels and supplying them with weapons.

The Syrian conflict will not end unless Assad leaves and that won't happen.

Assad isn't going to give up power because he knows what will happen if he does. Either Assad and his family flee to Russia. In Russia they will spend the rest of their lives under Russian protection.

If Assad goes to the West then he is going to be arrested and put on trial.

If Assad is captured by his own people then he will either face a Saddam style trial followed by execution or he will be captured and kill by an angry mob like Gaddaffi.

Fleeing Syrian citizens will not return to live in a country ruled by a dictator who murdered their families.

It's funny that WW2 is referenced here because in reality, after that conflict, Europe itself doesn't have any real fight in them to this day. They don't have the fortitude to do what would be necessary to cleanse the world of ISIS. On the flip side of that, I think Japan is itching for a brawl and would samurai those pieces of trash to the feudal days and back. But that's neither here nor there.

Everyone is reluctant to do anything about ISIS. Europe and the U.S are bombing ISIS and training/arming Iraqi/Syrian fighters but none of them have the guts to send in ground troops.

A united global force could take ISIS out but Western countries are tired of fighting in the middle east and middle eastern countries don't want to touch the powder keg type blow back from a ground invasion.

Japan has had a military solely for defence since WW2. Japanese people are definitely not pro-war. Since they got nuked Japanese society has been against having a military intervention. The current Japanese Prime Minister is facing some backlash from Japanese citizens about attempts to build up the military in defence of Japanese island sovereignty disputes with Russia and Japan.

 

[chamber-music]

Western intervention in the Middle East over the past century just hasn't worked. We stumble into these conflicts without any concrete plans and not understand the religious or geopolitical or social issues of the region.

The natives resent us when we help them and resent us when we don't. None of the regional powers like Saudi Arabia or Iran are willing to put their differences aside and sort of the problems in their own backyard.

Many middle eastern countries are completely dysfunctional with dictatorships, extremist fanatics, oligarchy and armed militia groups in control of various regions.

Sometimes I wish we could just Nuke the Middle East into oblivion. Repopulate ordinary non-violent people from the Middle East in unpopulated parts of Australia or somewhere to start over and let the lunatics who want to live live 4th century barbarians burn.

 

[ThePreface]

Western intervention in the Middle East over the past century just hasn't worked. We stumble into these conflicts without any concrete plans and not understand the religious or geopolitical or social issues of the region.

The natives resent us when we help them and resent us when we don't. None of the regional powers like Saudi Arabia or Iran are willing to put their differences aside and sort of the problems in their own backyard.

Many middle eastern countries are completely dysfunctional with dictatorships, extremist fanatics, oligarchy and armed militia groups in control of various regions.

Sometimes I wish we could just Nuke the Middle East into oblivion. Repopulate ordinary non-violent people from the Middle East in unpopulated parts of Australia or somewhere to start over and let the lunatics who want to live live 4th century barbarians burn.

No offense, but that's a very narrow perspective when you consider that the current richest city in the world is in the Middle East. And that the various European renaissances and ages of enlightenment were catalyzed by merchants and scholars who traveled to the Middle East and brought back scientific and artistic innovations with them. Europeans used to think that bathing daily was the work of the 'devil' until they started copying Muslims and Moors and life expectancy in Europe doubled.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

How many refugees are we talking about here?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I read somewhere that a billionaire wanted to create an island nation for refugees.

I'm not sure how practical the idea is but it would sure come in handy during times like this.

 

[chamber-music]

No offense, but that's a very narrow perspective when you consider that the current richest city in the world is in the Middle East. And that the various European renaissances and ages of enlightenment were catalyzed by merchants and scholars who traveled to the Middle East and brought back scientific and artistic innovations with them. Europeans used to think that bathing daily was the work of the 'devil' until they started copying Muslims and Moors and life expectancy in Europe doubled.

I think you misconstrued my comments. The 4th century Barbarian line was about groups such as ISIS, Taliban and so on. I wasn't talking about everyone in the middle east.

Like many people I'm frustrated by the problems the region faces.

The current richest city in the world isn't in the middle east. I'm assuming your talking about places like Doa, Dubai or Abu Dhabi, none of which hit the top spot of richest cities in the world by various ways of measuring. Those cities are some of the most expensive. The shocking treatment of immigrant workforces in places like Dubai is practically modern day slavery.