The Asylum: The Realism Thread

Two-Face's design is another example of something that is significantly more proposterous than anything shown in The Batman. You're gonna tell me a man burned that badly is gonna be walking around and talking like normal? lol Something tells me Reeves would go about that extremely different.
 
You said The Batman was more fantastical in some aspects than the Nolan films. I asked you for an example lol

Batman's capacity to withstand a spray of high caliber bullets without reaction, and taking an explosion right in front of him without suffering so much as a scratch is more fantastical. Plus that nasty tumble when he tried to land with his wingsuit didn't seem to have any effect either.

In The Dark Knight, Lucius said his armor couldn't even protect against a straight shot. Battinson could seemingly take any fight head on, where as Bale had to use stealth and strategy
 
Batman's capacity to withstand a spray of high caliber bullets without reaction, and taking an explosion right in front of him without suffering so much as a scratch is more fantastical. Plus that nasty tumble when he tried to land with his wingsuit didn't seem to have any effect either.

In The Dark Knight, Lucius said his armor couldn't even protect against a straight shot. Battinson could seemingly take any fight head on, where as Bale had to use stealth and strategy
None of that is more proposterous than the proposterous elements of the Nolan films. Battinson's bulletproof batsuit doesn't even come close to how ridiculous the microwave device from Begins is, the SONAR from TDK, the way he healed his back in TDKR, Harvey's design, etc. In a vacuum you could say that Bale's batsuit is more realistic than Robert's for that reason, but these elements don't exist in a vacuum.

And the nasty tumble thing is a bad argument since Nolan's Batman took a freefall from a building in TDK and crashed with Rachel over a taxi with not a single scratch. (Not to mention, that tumble existed in the context of Batman using a wingsuit that was specifically designed to be more realistic than Nolan's cape glider)
 
I think that the Batman will be a Nolanverse 2.0 without fantastic elements and more detective tone but lets see what happens
 
Two-Face's design is another example of something that is significantly more proposterous than anything shown in The Batman. You're gonna tell me a man burned that badly is gonna be walking around and talking like normal? lol Something tells me Reeves would go about that extremely different.
I actually agree with the other guy that the Reeves films are merely "differently preposterous" - more noir-film-on-steroids than spy-film-on-steroids - but Two-Face feels like he's definitely a character who could be made creepier by leaning towards more "mundane" design choices.

A Two-Face with a bunch of obvious, mis-matched skin-grafts could be plenty creepy, and arguably more pitiable.
 
Yeah, at the end of the day, it’s all make-believe and there are different liberties with reality taken in both Reeves and Nolan’s movies.

I think one of the fascinating things about Nolan’s movies is while people generally think that TDK is the most ’grounded’ of the three movies, in a lot of ways it has some of the most comic booky and outlandish aspects to it of the three, Two-Face being major one. The fact that the film is able to SELL that stuff as ‘realistic’ and feeling all of a piece with the movie is what makes it so great. That’s just the power of good filmmaking. As he tells us in The Presige…you want to be fooled.

And Nolan himself has said countless times that his use of the term “realism” has been widely misunderstood and what he’s really talking about is “cinematic realism”. IE using the conventions of existing film genres. In a way, Reeves is doing the same thing, but he’s focusing more on the noir genre, which by nature is usually less fantastical when it comes to the physics of things. But of course, it’s a still a Batman movie so some liberties are inevitable. Whereas Nolan was drawing from a large tapestry of film genres for his three films, including big blockbusters like Bond, Star Wars, Superman etc.
 
Yeah, at the end of the day, it’s all make-believe and there are different liberties with reality taken in both Reeves and Nolan’s movies...

...And Nolan himself has said countless times that his use of the term “realism” has been widely misunderstood and what he’s really talking about is “cinematic realism”. IE using the conventions of existing film genres. In a way, Reeves is doing the same thing, but he’s focusing more on the noir genre, which by nature is usually less fantastical when it comes to the physics of things. But of course, it’s a still a Batman movie so some liberties are inevitable. Whereas Nolan was drawing from a large tapestry of film genres for his three films, including big blockbusters like Bond, Star Wars, Superman etc.
It’s interesting how Nolan and Reeves, respectively, handled Batman’s ability to glide using “bat wings.” In the first case, the conceit was a sci-fi-ish “memory cloth” tech, built right into the cape. In the second, a “wingsuit” was utilized. Now in terms of brute “realism,” the wingsuit appears to win; such things actually exist. OTOH, the concealment of the wingsuit within Batman’s regular costume — and its subsequent deployment — somewhat undercuts the realism. Additionally, Batman’s brutally violent crashlanding, resulting in only bumps and bruises, was a further move away from plausible and towards the fantastical.

So on balance, it could be argued that Nolan’s version of “cinematic realism” worked better than Reeves’.
 
I tend to think of Nolan, Reeves, and even Burton all being different styles of "cinematic realism" - all three went about explaining the fantastic nature of the story in ways that didn't quite excuse it but dressed it up in some other genre's stylings.

He may seem a bit like an odd member of the trio since the other two are usually contrasted with him, as Burton was probably the most stylish (partially because his own style matured within his Batman films) but also the only one so far who's gone out of his way to adapt stuff like Catwoman's claws in a semi-plausible manner, the first to go with the body armor idea for the suit, had the least ostentatious combatant Batman, and was actually pretty meticulous in providing an explanation for most of his stuff (particularly in the first film.)

Nolan basically applied the same meticulous care, but through a Michael Mann-style thriller or a James Bond movie.

Reeves seems to be deliberately homaging Burton's style, but taking it his own way by emphasizing the grunge without the gothic elements.
 
I tend to think of Nolan, Reeves, and even Burton all being different styles of "cinematic realism" - all three went about explaining the fantastic nature of the story in ways that didn't quite excuse it but dressed it up in some other genre's stylings.

He may seem a bit like an odd member of the trio since the other two are usually contrasted with him, as Burton was probably the most stylish (partially because his own style matured within his Batman films) but also the only one so far who's gone out of his way to adapt stuff like Catwoman's claws in a semi-plausible manner, the first to go with the body armor idea for the suit, had the least ostentatious combatant Batman, and was actually pretty meticulous in providing an explanation for most of his stuff (particularly in the first film.)

Nolan basically applied the same meticulous care, but through a Michael Mann-style thriller or a James Bond movie.

Reeves seems to be deliberately homaging Burton's style, but taking it his own way by emphasizing the grunge without the gothic elements.

Hmm…I’m not sure. I think Burton’s style was more about leaning into the surrealism than realism, especially with Returns. A lot of that has to do with how Gotham is depicted. I think of it more in terms of how the overall approach hits you vs. how individual things are explained. Burton definitely was the first director to attempt to depict Batman in a dark and serious way in live action, so I think along with that did come a certain sense of believability that was important for the time. But I think it was primarily achieved through the psychological approach and Keaton’s nuanced performance. For me, Burton’s world is presented in a fantastical enough way to where I don’t really question the logic of things (like where does he get all those wonderful toys, actually?). It’s more like a dark fairy tale to me.

I think of Reeves’ approach as combining certain aspects of both Nolan and Burton.
 
It’s interesting how Nolan and Reeves, respectively, handled Batman’s ability to glide using “bat wings.” In the first case, the conceit was a sci-fi-ish “memory cloth” tech, built right into the cape. In the second, a “wingsuit” was utilized. Now in terms of brute “realism,” the wingsuit appears to win; such things actually exist. OTOH, the concealment of the wingsuit within Batman’s regular costume — and its subsequent deployment — somewhat undercuts the realism. Additionally, Batman’s brutally violent crashlanding, resulting in only bumps and bruises, was a further move away from plausible and towards the fantastical.

So on balance, it could be argued that Nolan’s version of “cinematic realism” worked better than Reeves’.
The crashlanding was based on videos Reeves saw of motorcyclists and daredevils suffering ridiculously violent falls that should've killed them that they then walk off as if nothing happened. Perhaps he may have botched the execution of it a bit, but even that bit had Reeves intending for it to be realistic. It should not be interpreted as Reeves making any sort of statement as to whatever fantastical nature this universe has, because he's not.
 
I hope Reevesverse Batman is a loner like Nolanverse Batman i prefer to have Robins or the Batfamily in the new DCU where they can shine more having Robins or the Batfamily in the Reevesverse would be short lived i prefer this World of Batman to be more about Detectives Mafia Corruption Street level Batman
 
I think that will be the case honestly. DCU Bats will lean more zany and fantastical with the Batfamily practically being co-protagonists while Reeves' work will be centered fully on the human "freaks", mobsters, and seedy underground stuff, all sitting firmly on Batman's shoulders.
 
The crashlanding was based on videos Reeves saw of motorcyclists and daredevils suffering ridiculously violent falls that should've killed them that they then walk off as if nothing happened. Perhaps he may have botched the execution of it a bit, but even that bit had Reeves intending for it to be realistic. It should not be interpreted as Reeves making any sort of statement as to whatever fantastical nature this universe has, because he's not.
It’s clear, I think, that Reeves was going for a more grounded approach. Thus, the Batcycle was just a motorcycle; the Batmobile looked like a car (not a rocket ship); and the Riddler was more Hannibal Lecter than Frank Gorshin or Jim Carrey; etc. And along those lines, the wingsuit was deemed (I assume) more “realistic” than the cape-as-glider conceit. But according to my modest thesis, the wingsuit, all details considered, required more willing suspension of disbelief (not less). Whereas, the cape-as-glider (notwithstanding its implausibility) maybe raises fewer questions or "fridge logic" moments — and, therefore, is interpreted as more “realistic.”
 
Hmm…I’m not sure. I think Burton’s style was more about leaning into the surrealism than realism, especially with Returns. A lot of that has to do with how Gotham is depicted. I think of it more in terms of how the overall approach hits you vs. how individual things are explained. Burton definitely was the first director to attempt to depict Batman in a dark and serious way in live action, so I think along with that did come a certain sense of believability that was important for the time. But I think it was primarily achieved through the psychological approach and Keaton’s nuanced performance. For me, Burton’s world is presented in a fantastical enough way to where I don’t really question the logic of things (like where does he get all those wonderful toys, actually?). It’s more like a dark fairy tale to me.

I think of Reeves’ approach as combining certain aspects of both Nolan and Burton.
That's especially the case for Returns. It's just that I've been watching 89 some more and I'm still surprised at how much more grounded and explained that film is compared to Returns and to most of the comics at the time. In particular, Joker's surreal nature is matched by an interesting dedication to explaining him - the psychological profile setting up his skills, interests, and insanities is surprisingly thorough in explaining a theatrical madman.

It probably plays into why I like 89 more than Returns.

The "Dark Fairy Tale" point is a good one, and feels like that's something Reeves is seeking to kind of play with without going overt for it.
 
That's especially the case for Returns. It's just that I've been watching 89 some more and I'm still surprised at how much more grounded and explained that film is compared to Returns and to most of the comics at the time. In particular, Joker's surreal nature is matched by an interesting dedication to explaining him - the psychological profile setting up his skills, interests, and insanities is surprisingly thorough in explaining a theatrical madman.

It probably plays into why I like 89 more than Returns.

The "Dark Fairy Tale" point is a good one, and feels like that's something Reeves is seeking to kind of play with without going overt for it.

I will forever be flip flopping between 89 and Returns, haha. For the past several years I've landed firmly on liking 89 a bit more, but recent yearly holiday season rewatch of Returns the other night had me falling back in love with it. Ultimately I just love how different they are from each other.
 
Returns feels like it has much more of a point as a story than 89 does. I like how 89 looks a lot more as I have grown to truly despise Tim Burton's aesthetic after the decades he's spent running it into the ground but Returns is a funnier, smarter, more interesting movie.

Also probably has the best bat suit, when you leave movement out of the equation. It's a real tie between Returns/The Batman for me in that department.
 
Returns feels like it has much more of a point as a story than 89 does. I like how 89 looks a lot more as I have grown to truly despise Tim Burton's aesthetic after the decades he's spent running it into the ground but Returns is a funnier, smarter, more interesting movie.

Also probably has the best bat suit, when you leave movement out of the equation. It's a real tie between Returns/The Batman for me in that department.

Returns is certainly all of those things, but I think there's also something kind of wonderful about how simple and operatic 89 is. It's just this epic clash between two larger than life icons, each having created the other, with Anton Furst's Gotham as their playground. It's simple, maybe to a fault in terms of making Joker the killer of the Waynes, but there's still a real power in the simplicity for me too. I think there's just something primal about the Batman/Joker dichotomy that just pretty much always works.
 
Returns is certainly all of those things, but I think there's also something kind of wonderful about how simple and operatic 89 is. It's just this epic clash between two larger than life icons, each having created the other, with Anton Furst's Gotham as their playground. It's simple, maybe to a fault in terms of making Joker the killer of the Waynes, but there's still a real power in the simplicity for me too. I think there's just something primal about the Batman/Joker dichotomy that just pretty much always works.
Totally get that, for me there just isn't enough of an actual story to it and by the end it all feels really aimless. I much prefer the earlier drafts of the script by Hamm before Burton came aboard. My big thing with it is I feel Joker gets less and less interesting as the movie goes on, he's fascinating as Napier - there's this sense he's barely containing the person he really is and the acid bath fully unleashes it - but by the end I find his antics a bit tedious.

Keaton is amazing though. As much as Burton seems uninterested in him in both movies at times, he's always the MVP. If Keaton had been Batman in movies that were a bit closer to my personal taste he might genuinely have been my all time favourite.
 
Totally get that, for me there just isn't enough of an actual story to it and by the end it all feels really aimless. I much prefer the earlier drafts of the script by Hamm before Burton came aboard. My big thing with it is I feel Joker gets less and less interesting as the movie goes on, he's fascinating as Napier - there's this sense he's barely containing the person he really is and the acid bath fully unleashes it - but by the end I find his antics a bit tedious.

Keaton is amazing though. As much as Burton seems uninterested in him in both movies at times, he's always the MVP. If Keaton had been Batman in movies that were a bit closer to my personal taste he might genuinely have been my all time favourite.

That's fair. I think that's one area where TDK really shines over 89-- every single Joker scene is a banger and just gets better as the movie goes.

Sometimes I'm not exactly sure what Returns is really trying to say as a story either though. By the end I'm kind of just left with it being a sad story about broken people and I'm not sure the point exactly beyond a vague sense of nihilism. That's where I think a lack of a third Burton film kind of makes it feel a bit incomplete...but also maybe gives it that enduring, haunting quality.
 
That's fair. I think that's one area where TDK really shines over 89-- every single Joker scene is a banger and just gets better as the movie goes.

Sometimes I'm not exactly sure what Returns is really trying to say as a story either though. By the end I'm kind of just left with it being a sad story about broken people and I'm not sure the point exactly beyond a vague sense of nihilism. That's where I think a lack of a third Burton film kind of makes it feel a bit incomplete...but also maybe gives it that enduring, haunting quality.
Returns strikes me as having a "more heart than head" approach to its themes - which is not a bad thing and of itself, and actually generally works well with most stories, and can even sort of work with a more intellectual narrative that's not trying to reinforce it.

For instance, I would argue the Nolan films actually wound up having a very idealistic emotional theme even as their narratives were more overtly pessimistic and cynical at times. In contrast, I'd argue the Snyder films from the DCEU were trying to be idealistic in their narratives, but were overwhelmed by emotional themes of pessimism and cynicism.

I tend to really dislike nihilism as an emotional theme - I usually find it pretentious, boring, and juvenile - which might explain why I watch Returns sparingly. The "haunting" element definitely works a bit, but also feels undercooked and incomplete.

Reeves's film, oddly enough, made me feel like it does a good job of doing that sort of "Anti-Nihilist" thing of finding a way to merge the oppressive, painful, weary aspect of nihilism with a defiance that wraps around to being hopeful at the end, and acts more like a call to action than just "wistful despair."
 
Totally get that, for me there just isn't enough of an actual story to it and by the end it all feels really aimless. I much prefer the earlier drafts of the script by Hamm before Burton came aboard. My big thing with it is I feel Joker gets less and less interesting as the movie goes on, he's fascinating as Napier - there's this sense he's barely containing the person he really is and the acid bath fully unleashes it - but by the end I find his antics a bit tedious.

Keaton is amazing though. As much as Burton seems uninterested in him in both movies at times, he's always the MVP. If Keaton had been Batman in movies that were a bit closer to my personal taste he might genuinely have been my all time favourite.

I do find Jack Nicholson to be scarier as Jack Napier than he is as The Joker. It helps that Nicholson isn't trying to act through restrictive facial prosthetics (which were never necessary because Nicholson already had a great face for a live action Joker, he didn't need it).
 

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