The Brightest Day!

[HighFivingMF]

We need more minority and gay characters at DC

Not fewer

Oh really, that's how you feel? I never would have guessed that you wanted more minority and gay characters at DC! How come you never said anything before?

 

[Mystirious]

I never said that you shouldn't like or dislike a character specifically because of race. But the idea of ignoring race under the pretense that "everyone is equal, I don't see anyone differently" has become one of the foremost problems in racial discussion recently since it downplays the problems minorities experience by putting them on an inaccurate equal footing as the white majority.

Let's imagine that a hypothetical comic book company has four white characters for every one black character, so that if there were a total of ten characters in the company, eight would be white and two would be black. And then a big dramatic story happens! The writer decides to be edgy and shocking by killing off some characters. He or she thinks, "Well everyone is equal, I certainly don't want to be racist by thinking of race when I make my decision, that would be bad!" and so he kills one white character and one black character. Because, hey, everyone is equal!

Congratulations: you've just killed about 12% of your white characters, but a whole 50% of all black characters in your company. You now have one black character left. Whoops! Didn't see that coming, 'cause you were being all progressive and egalitarian by not thinking of race at all.

Do you see the problem now?

 

[hippie_hunter]

There is

There are many examples

Minority donwsizing may not be DC's intent but it is the result of their actions

It needs to stop

We need more minority and gay characters at DC

Not fewer

Replacing a person with the iconic version is not minority downsizing. When DC starts getting rid of minorities that aren't tied down the roles of other people like Steel, the Milestone characters, John Stewart, Cheshire, etc. then I'll agree with you.

 

[Mystirious]

Replacing a person with the iconic version is not minority downsizing. When DC starts getting rid of minorities that aren't tied down the roles of other people like Steel, the Milestone characters, John Stewart, Cheshire, etc. then I'll agree with you.

Killing off a minority character is minority downsizing

These characters do not need to be replaced by the "Iconic versions".

Ray Palmer and Ryan Choi co-existed well together

DC have killed off many minority characters who are not legacy characters

 

[hippie_hunter]

Killing off a minority character is minority downsizing

Then killing off a white person is downsizing white characters with that logic.

These characters do not need to be replaced by the "Iconic versions".

That's a matter of opinion, but fact is that DC wants to restore the iconic versions of their superheroes and it is not limited removing minority characters. Oliver Queen, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Ray Palmer, and Ronnie Raymond are the classic versions of Green Arrow, the Flash, Green Lantern, the Atom, and Firestorm. They are the faces that Warner Bros. uses to sell these characters.

And dare I say that the reintroductions most of those characters have been fantastic. Ray Palmer being the only exception.

Ray Palmer and Ryan Choi co-existed well together

I agree, and it's a shame that they killed off Ryan, a character that I loved, in such a piss poor manner only for shocks in a book that is bastardizing one of my favorite properties.

DC have killed off many minority characters who are not legacy characters

When have they done so recently?

 

[Mystirious]

Then killing off a white person is downsizing white characters with that logic.

BrianWilly said

Let's imagine that a hypothetical comic book company has four white characters for every one black character, so that if there were a total of ten characters in the company, eight would be white and two would be black. And then a big dramatic story happens! The writer decides to be edgy and shocking by killing off some characters. He or she thinks, "Well everyone is equal, I certainly don't want to be racist by thinking of race when I make my decision, that would be bad!" and so he kills one white character and one black character. Because, hey, everyone is equal!

Congratulations: you've just killed about 12% of your white characters, but a whole 50% of all black characters in your company. You now have one black character left. Whoops! Didn't see that coming, 'cause you were being all progressive and egalitarian by not thinking of race at all.

This is why DC should not kill off their gay and minority characters

That's a matter of opinion, but fact is that DC wants to restore the iconic versions of their superheroes and it is not limited removing minority characters. Oliver Queen, Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Ray Palmer, and Ronnie Raymond are the classic versions of Green Arrow, the Flash, Green Lantern, the Atom, and Firestorm. They are the faces that Warner Bros. uses to sell these characters.

The all white faces

And dare I say that the reintroductions most of those characters have been fantastic. Ray Palmer being the only exception.

None of them interest me

When have they done so recently?

They did it this week

Creote is a gay male character

He is not a legacy character

He was killed off

 

[so-tite]

Since when is the current condition Teen Titans is in Static's fault?

 

[hippie_hunter]

BrianWilly said



This is why DC should not kill off their gay and minority characters

It's absolutely absurd to say that it's okay to kill off white characters and not kill gay and minority characters.

They did it this week

Creote is a gay male character

He is not a legacy character

He was killed off

I totally forgot who Creote was until I looked up past issues of Birds of Prey.

But that is just one instance and I'll give you that. Name me some more.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Since when is the current condition Teen Titans is in Static's fault?

It's not at all. I blame it more on DC appointing crappy writer after crappy writer on the book and not knowing what to do with it.

But introducing Static has done nothing for the book. My point is that when there is no interest in Milestone characters, DC isn't going to do anything with them. It's just like how there is interest in Green Lantern, that is why there are three Green Lantern books. There is interest in Batman, that is why there are nine Batman books.

 

[so-tite]

But introducing Static has done nothing for the book. My point is that when there is no interest in Milestone characters, DC isn't going to do anything with them. It's just like how there is interest in Green Lantern, that is why there are three Green Lantern books. There is interest in Batman, that is why there are nine Batman books.

Superboy and Kid Flash returning did nothing for the book either. In fact, it did even less. Same goes for Beast Boy and Raven returning. Bad or sub-par writing (or editorial wrangling in most cases) doesn't help ANY character. All the characters in the world would do squat if the book is crap and/or under-promoted. I've actually seen people writing stuff like "I only buy this book for Static (or Blue Beetle), but it sucks and I may have to drop it soon" when it comes to Teen Titans. Good writing or plots that aren't crippled by the higher-ups is what brings reader interest. Why was Hal Jordan killed off in the first place?

As for writer interest, Gail Simone has requested to use Rocket multiple times, but DC keeps blocking her.

 

[Charlie Boy]

What the hell is this little debate even about anymore? Creating minority and or gay characters and shoehorning them in to popular books for the sake of doing so is just a horrible idea.

Let these things happen organically.

 

[Mystirious]

It's absolutely absurd to say that it's okay to kill off white characters and not kill gay and minority characters.

DC has too few gay and minority characters right now

They need to create more

Not kill them off

I totally forgot who Creote was until I looked up past issues of Birds of Prey.

But that is just one instance and I'll give you that. Name me some more.

Freedom Beast Ice Maiden Cavalier Tony Tasmanian Devil Copperhead II
Isis Osiris Black Spider Lynx Gehenna Weather Witch Alkyone Syonide Thunder

 

[so-tite]

What the hell is this little debate even about anymore? Creating minority and or gay characters and shoehorning them in to popular books for the sake of doing so is just a horrible idea.

Let these things happen organically.

Killing a bunch of them off for shock value is also a bad idea.

 

[HighFivingMF]

None of them interest me

"I don't like DC.

Their cast doesn't include gays or minorities.

I'm not interested in the comics.

Marvel has gay and minority characters.

I find them interesting.

DC needs to have gay and minority characters.

I don't like that they don't."

If it weren't for BrianWilly having actual points people would have stopped responding a while ago. I'd hate to see you in a restaurant.

"You have Cheddar cheese?

I like Swiss.

Cheddar bores me.

Wendy's has swiss.

You need to have swiss.

I don't like that you don't."

 

[Mystirious]

Killing a bunch of them off for shock value is also a bad idea.

It is also bad writing

 

[Charlie Boy]

Killing a bunch of them off for shock value is also a bad idea.

I say killing off a bunch of characters for shock value is a bad idea, regardless of color or sexual predilection. It's a weak move. I don't see why killing a minority or gay character would be in any more bad taste than killing a straight white character.

Good writing makes a good character, not ethnicity, handicap, or sexual attraction. John Stewart isn't my favorite GL because he's black, he's my favorite GL because he's a hard ass and I dig his back story.

 

[BrianWilly]

Replacing a person with the iconic version is not minority downsizing. When DC starts getting rid of minorities that aren't tied down the roles of other people like Steel, the Milestone characters, John Stewart, Cheshire, etc. then I'll agree with you.

Justification after justification. How come it's okay to call it downsizing in one situation but not the other when they both lead to the exact same result? Is the originating intent behind the action really that important? It's totally okay for DC to wind up with fewer and fewer ethnic characters so long as their stated intent is to be more, y'know, iconic?

It's absolutely absurd to say that it's okay to kill off white characters and not kill gay and minority characters.

Well it's a good thing no one has said that, then. But killing off one minority character does overwhelmingly more damage to the amount of minorities in DC than killing off one white character does to the amount of white characters. Now I'm not sure why the company needs to be killing their characters all the time anyway, but if you kill equal amounts of white and black characters when the scales are outrageously unbalanced to begin with, well guess what, you're gonna run out of black characters long before you run out of white characters, leaving you with a white-only company. You cannot refute this, no matter how much you cry out that everyone is equal and everyone needs to be treated the same. This is the precise specific reason why I think being colorblind is so unhelpful. For all demographics to be treated the same they must be on equal ground in the first place, which they are not.

What the hell is this little debate even about anymore? Creating minority and or gay characters and shoehorning them in to popular books for the sake of doing so is just a horrible idea.

Let these things happen organically.

The problem with this is that I'm beginning to find that people far too often throw the phrase "it didn't happen organically" as an excuse to dismantle any new character that they just flat-out don't like. It's completely subjective. Depending on who you ask, DC forced Montoya as the Question, forced Batwoman to be gay, forced Blue Beetle to be Mexican, forced the Atom to be Asian, forced Jason to be black, and so on and so forth. Show me any new character that you liked and felt was introduced organically, white or not, and I'll link you to an exact quote from someone -- a few from within the last dozen or so pages -- who felt he or she was forced and inorganic.

 

[Charlie Boy]

The problem with this is that I'm beginning to find that people far too often throw the phrase "it didn't happen organically" as an excuse to dismantle any new character that they just flat-out don't like. It's completely subjective. Depending on who you ask, DC forced Montoya as the Question, forced Batwoman to be gay, forced Blue Beetle to be Mexican, forced the Atom to be Asian, forced Jason to be black, and so on and so forth. Show me any new character that you liked and felt was introduced organically, white or not, and I'll link you to an exact quote from someone -- a few from within the last dozen or so pages -- who felt he or she was forced and inorganic.

Fair enough. It is quite subjective. It's just as a minority, the last thing I want are ill-thought minority characters popping up left and right for the hell of it.

"Hey guys, Jimmy Olsen's moving away, but don't worry, we have a new young photographer joining the Daily Planet...His name is Jamal Ozroco, he's a homosexual half black, half mexican paraplegic."

Sincerely, Dan DiDio.

 

[hippie_hunter]

DC has too few gay and minority characters right now

They need to create more

Not kill them off

Every new main character DC has been creating is a gay or minority character.

Freedom Beast Ice Maiden Cavalier Tony Tasmanian Devil Copperhead II
Isis Osiris Black Spider Lynx Gehenna Weather Witch Alkyone Syonide Thunder

Thunder isn't dead, Osiris isn't dead, Copperhead II isn't dead, Lynx isn't dead, Black Spider isn't dead, Isis will come back, and Alkyone isn't a minority. And you're going to complain about Syonide and Weather Witch who appeared in a grand total about 5 comics each? And who the hell is Cavalier Tony? And when did Icemaiden die? And you're complaining about characters that died in Cry for Justice, a book that took a crap on just about everyone?

 

[so-tite]

It is also bad writing

I say killing off a bunch of characters for shock value is a bad idea, regardless of color or sexual predilection. It's a weak move. I don't see why killing a minority or gay character would be in any more bad taste than killing a straight white character.

Good writing makes a good character, not ethnicity, handicap, or sexual attraction. John Stewart isn't my favorite GL because he's black, he's my favorite GL because he's a hard ass and I dig his back story.

True on both counts.

Though the problem with DC's current penchant for frequent killing (aside from the fact that it exists in the first place) is that it tends to affect minority characters even worse, since there's not as many of them to begin with.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Justification after justification. How come it's okay to call it downsizing in one situation but not the other when they both lead to the exact same result? Is the originating intent behind the action really that important? It's totally okay for DC to wind up with fewer and fewer ethnic characters so long as their stated intent is to be more, y'know, iconic?

But for every ethnic character that they get rid of because they're replacing them with the original version, they're putting out other minority characters like Batwoman, Aqualad, Blue Beetle, etc. Almost every major introduction of a new character has been a minority.

Well it's a good thing no one has said that, then. But killing off one minority character does overwhelmingly more damage to the amount of minorities in DC than killing off one white character does to the amount of white characters. Now I'm not sure why the company needs to be killing their characters all the time anyway, but if you kill equal amounts of white and black characters when the scales are outrageously unbalanced to begin with, well guess what, you're gonna run out of black characters long before you run out of white characters, leaving you with a white-only company. You cannot refute this, no matter how much you cry out that everyone is equal and everyone needs to be treated the same. This is the precise specific reason why I think being colorblind is so unhelpful. For all demographics to be treated the same they must be on equal ground in the first place, which they are not.

Now the part that you put in small letters is what I agree with in the first place. Why kill these characters to begin with?

And maybe they would be on equal ground if they were treated as equals to begin with. Even in today's era, people aren't treated equally. We have laws banning gay marriage. People absurdly thinking that Obama was born in Africa just because of his skin color. And whatnot.

The problem with this is that I'm beginning to find that people far too often throw the phrase "it didn't happen organically" as an excuse to dismantle any new character that they just flat-out don't like. It's completely subjective. Depending on who you ask, DC forced Montoya as the Question, forced Batwoman to be gay, forced Blue Beetle to be Mexican, forced the Atom to be Asian, forced Jason to be black, and so on and so forth. Show me any new character that you liked and felt was introduced organically, white or not, and I'll link you to an exact quote from someone -- a few from within the last dozen or so pages -- who felt he or she was forced and inorganic.

You're absolutely right on this point.

Although, Montoya is still better as Montoya and not the Question.

 

[Mystirious]

Thunder isn't dead, Osiris isn't dead, Copperhead II isn't dead, Lynx isn't dead, Black Spider isn't dead, Isis will come back, and Alkyone isn't a minority. And you're going to complain about Syonide and Weather Witch who appeared in a grand total about 5 comics each? And who the hell is Cavalier Tony? And when did Icemaiden die? And you're complaining about characters that died in Cry for Justice, a book that took a crap on just about everyone?

Cavalier and Tony are two seperate characters. Cavalier is a Batman villain and Tony was Starman's lover

Alkyone was a lesbian

Icemaiden was killed off in JSA Classified

The Black Spider who was actually black is dead.

There is a new Lynx but the original is dead

True on both counts.

Though the problem with DC's current penchant for frequent killing (aside from the fact that it exists in the first place) is that it tends to affect minority characters even worse, since there's not as many of them to begin with.

Also true

 

[Mystirious]

You're absolutely right on this point.

Although, Montoya is still better as Montoya and not the Question.

Your nose is growing Pinnochio

 

[hippie_hunter]

Cavalier and Tony are two seperate characters. Cavalier is a Batman villain and Tony was Starman's lover

So another Cry for Justice disaster and a Batman villain no one has ever heard of.

Alkyone was a lesbian

I thought she just wasn't interested in the man she married

Icemaiden was killed off in JSA Classified

The the hell read JSA Classified

The Black Spider who was actually black is dead.

Wait a minute, a lot of the characters you're complaining about getting killed were killed off by Greg Rucka and Gail Simone two of the friendliest writers to minority and LGBT characters.

And James Robinson of course who is on an absurd killing spree on just about everyone right now. Kryptonians, citizens of major metropolitan areas, children, people that have never been seen or heard of for years, arms, and Prometheus.

There is a new Lynx but the original is dead

Oh yeah, I forgot that they killed Lynx and then brought her back to life only to kill her again

Boy I sure love comics.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Your nose is growing Pinnochio

Nope, I really find Questoya to be rather bland and boring and leaves me thinking of why did they have to kill off Vic Sage. And I was so disappointed by the Question co-feature in Detective Comics that was nowhere near as good as the main feature.

Montoya has had so many more interesting things happen to her when she wasn't the Question such as her relationship with Two-Face, being outed as a lesbian, dealing with the death of her partner, etc.