The Confederate flag

[NHawk19]

This is not a ringing endorsement of slavery. I detest the concept and practice of slavery.

I believe they had a right to contest what was going on in the government at that time as a result of the 10th Amendment to the constitution.

The 10th amendment states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people."

At that time the federal government was trying dictate to the states how they would establish rule of law. This was and still is (well should be) prohibited under the US Constitution. The states should have been allowed to stand up and tell the federal government to stay out of their issues.

For example, nowhere in the federal Constitution is Congress given authority to regulate local matters concerning the health, safety, and morality of state residents. Known as police powers, such authority is reserved to the states under the Tenth Amendment. Conversely, no state may enter into a treaty with a foreign government because such agreements are prohibited by the plain language of Article I to the Constitution.

They had a point when they went to war. Even if the issue at hand was immoral.

 

[Apollo]

The confederate flag is stupid. How is it southern pride when the people that used that flag supported slavery and racism............. That's not something to be proud of and its pretty stupid of anyone to say it is. I am glad it's being banned.

I agree. It belongs in a museum not infront of southern capital buildings.

 

[Octoberist]

I keep saying 'why not just design another flag. Or better yet..just celebrate the AMERICAN flag.'

It's such a weird thing that I don't think i'll ever understand.

 

[Wylie Times]

I never said they don't count. I simply said the image has been perverted to something other than was was intended. And what about the second part of my argument . . .

If the "just a few bad apples" excuse doesn't hold water for this then there's a whole list of other things we need to ban. How about Turbans, the Koran, Black Panther Flags, hoodies, etc.? People who harmed others all wore or carried those and I find anything that anyone wore more than say 100 times in a criminal action offensive.

For the record I'm against banning all those things. I'm just extending your argument about things people find offensive being banned. Where does it stop?

This isn't even remotely accurate. It's a battle flag for people who were fighting for the "state right" to enslaved black people. The image hasn't been perverted at all.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

This is not a ringing endorsement of slavery. I detest the concept and practice of slavery.

I believe they had a right to contest what was going on in the government at that time as a result of the 10th Amendment to the constitution.

The 10th amendment states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, respectively, or to the people."

At that time the federal government was trying dictate to the states how they would establish rule of law. This was and still is (well should be) prohibited under the US Constitution. The states should have been allowed to stand up and tell the federal government to stay out of their issues.

For example, nowhere in the federal Constitution is Congress given authority to regulate local matters concerning the health, safety, and morality of state residents. Known as police powers, such authority is reserved to the states under the Tenth Amendment. Conversely, no state may enter into a treaty with a foreign government because such agreements are prohibited by the plain language of Article I to the Constitution.

They had a point when they went to war. Even if the issue at hand was immoral.

I don't agree that they had a point when they went to war.

They wanted to keep blacks enslaved and the North was right to intervene.

The South listed their reasons for going to war in this historical document:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dec...sion_of_South_Carolina_from_the_Federal_Union

 

[Wylie Times]

I keep saying 'why not just design another flag. Or better yet..just celebrate the AMERICAN flag.'

It's such a weird thing that I don't think i'll ever understand.

Because a new flag wouldn't be a part of the history they claim they want to honor even though they ignore or are ignorant to huge chunks of it.

The people defending the confederate flag are the same ones who scream that the civil war wasn't about slavery.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I keep saying 'why not just design another flag. Or better yet..just celebrate the AMERICAN flag.'

It's such a weird thing that I don't think i'll ever understand.

Because they support and agree with what the Confederacy fought for.

Why change the flag when you openly wish the Confederates beat the North?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Denying that the Civil War was about slavery reminds me of people denying the Holocaust ever happened.

But Holocaust denial is a fringe belief and slavery denial is widely accepted.

It's actually kind of scary how popular rewritten history can be during the current Information Age.

 

[Wylie Times]

Because they support and agree with what the Confederacy fought for.

Why change the flag when you openly wish the Confederates beat the North?

Nope, we're supposed to pretend as if it was just a coincidence that the flag reemerged and started being used by state governments (mostly in the south) right around the time the Federal government stated chipping away at Jim Crow.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

Am I the only one who thinks this Confederate Flag issue is drowning out all arguments for gun control? We've had 72 mass shootings since Sandy Hook.

Link: https://library.stanford.edu/projects/mass-shootings-america/data

 

[Lighthouse]

Am I the only one who thinks this Confederate Flag issue is drowning out all arguments for gun control? We've had 72 mass shootings since Sandy Hook.

Link: https://library.stanford.edu/projects/mass-shootings-america/data

I don't think it's drowned out by the flag, I just think people have thrown their hands up in the air over it. If a guy shoots up a classroom full of school children, and still NOTHING changes, it's really demoralizing. Mass shootings never seem to change anything, and in fact, gun sales skyrocket afterwards.

 

[TheBat812]

Very interesting video that may have been posted regarding the confederate flag and how it blatantly represents slavery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6SOdFrvWpI

 

[hippie_hunter]

Denying that the Civil War was about slavery reminds me of people denying the Holocaust ever happened.

But Holocaust denial is a fringe belief and slavery denial is widely accepted.

It's actually kind of scary how popular rewritten history can be during the current Information Age.

I wouldn't blame the current Information Age on rewriting Civil War history. This state's rights revisionism goes all the way back for decades.

Also I wouldn't compare Civil War revisionism to Holocaust denials. There is at least a basis for the States' Rights argument. A flimsy one, but there is still one. Holocaust denials are based on baseless conspiracy theories. People buy into the States' Rights argument because we have facets of the media (like Fox News) and parts of our education system teaching it to our children, while no legitimate outlet is preaching Holocaust denials. And Holocaust denials are based on outright anti-Semitic bigotry, in my opinion, the State's Rights argument is not based on racism, but more on guilt and people not wanting to accept that their homeland was actively a part of something utterly horrific and awful. It's their way of telling themselves that their ancestors were not complete *****ebags.

I can think of plenty of people who ignorantly buy into the States' Rights argument who aren't racist, because in the end, the States' Rights argument tries to overlook the issues of racism. Can you think of anyone who buys into Holocaust denials who aren't anti-Semitic?

 

[redfirebird2008]

Yeah I agree with Hippie on the comparison with Confederacy revisionism vs. Holocaust revisionism. There is at least some truth to the Confederacy stuff even though slavery was a huge factor and they need to acknowledge that. The flag should be taken down from any public institution.

The Holocaust denial is scary. Go on YouTube and find any documentary videos of Hitler. You will surely find what I assume are relatively young people spouting the most vile junk denying the Holocaust ever happened. Unreal that someone could actually believe that. It's a good thing our troops forced the German citizens to see the bodies in the concentration camps. Hard evidence of what happened that could not be denied.

I think the vast majority of people in Germany are truly ashamed that their public actually allowed Hitler's regime to take power and today they are appalled by any kind of Neo Nazi movement throughout the world.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think it's a rather interesting issue since it's not like only part of Germany became Nazi and rebelled against the rest of the country, although that nearly did happen.

Taking down the Confederate flag is one thing. But, I can't see (white) Southerners throwing all their beloved heroes under a bus. Even a lot of people in the Union, like Grant and Sherman greatly respected Robert E. Lee and some of his contemporaries.

I mean, if our beef with people like Lee and (Stonewall) Jackson is slavery, then we should be consistent and also denounce Washington and Jefferson.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I mean, if our beef with people like Lee and (Stonewall) Jackson is slavery, then we should be consistent and also denounce Washington and Jefferson.

In that regard I feel John Adams is underrated as a Founding Father. He was proudly against slavery and he did just as much to help get this country started as the likes of Washington or Jefferson.

 

[Schlosser85]

I think it's a rather interesting issue since it's not like only part of Germany became Nazi and rebelled against the rest of the country, although that nearly did happen.

Taking down the Confederate flag is one thing. But, I can't see (white) Southerners throwing all their beloved heroes under a bus. Even a lot of people in the Union, like Grant and Sherman greatly respected Robert E. Lee and some of his contemporaries.

I mean, if our beef with people like Lee and (Stonewall) Jackson is slavery, then we should be consistent and also denounce Washington and Jefferson.

Ironically, Lee and Jackson themselves were anti-slavery. Lee freed his father's slaves when he inherited the plantation, and Jackson had taught African-American children at a school before the war.

But as Lee put it, "as much as I love the Union, I love Virginia more".

 

[Thundercrack85]

Adams was never very popular. He was a capable technocrat, but few people liked him personally. Even with his friends, he had mostly complicated relations.

He also did some things considered dubious even for its day (the Alien and Sedition acts). Adams basically gave precedent for Japanese Internment, which... is a rather unfortunate legacy.

Even his death was overshadowed by Jefferson's. They died on the very same day. July 4th no less.

 

[redfirebird2008]

Adams was never very popular. He was a capable technocrat, but few people liked him personally. Even with his friends, he had mostly complicated relations.

He also did some things considered dubious even for its day (the Alien and Sedition acts). Adams basically gave precedent for Japanese Internment, which... is a rather unfortunate legacy.

Even his death was overshadowed by Jefferson's. They died on the very same day. July 4th no less.

The Alien and Sedition thing is bad, but I think he is underrated when it comes to founding the country.

Dying on the same day as Jefferson and it being July 4th is one of the most amazing pieces of historical trivia. Incredible that it played out in such a way.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Ironically, Lee and Jackson themselves were anti-slavery. Lee freed his father's slaves when he inherited the plantation, and Jackson had taught African-American children at a school before the war.

But as Lee put it, "as much as I love the Union, I love Virginia more".

I wouldn't say they were anti-slavery. They were just relatively kind masters.

I would say they were against brutal treatment of slaves.

Lee at least seemed to have the foresight to realize that slavery would one day end. And he seems to have harbored a velleity to see it end, but he was hardly an abolitionist.

Jackson was a religious zealot, who believed that everything was ultimately up to God, and that God willed it. Though he was a decent, non-vicious person, circumstances considered.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The Alien and Sedition thing is bad, but I think he is underrated when it comes to founding the country.

Dying on the same day as Jefferson and it being July 4th is one of the most amazing pieces of historical trivia. Incredible that it played out in such a way.

I actually think Adams, and his son's abolitionism may have cost him some of his fair share of credit. The South hated him, and in the 18th and 19th century, they definitely favored their own sons (Washington, Jefferson, etc) over a Yankee agitator.

Jefferson enjoyed almost a cult of personality in the South.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I actually think Adams, and his son's abolitionism may have cost him some of his fair share of credit. The South hated him, and in the 18th and 19th century, they definitely favored their own sons (Washington, Jefferson, etc) over a Yankee agitator.

Jefferson enjoyed almost a cult of personality in the South.

Yeah, I just recently watch the HBO series on Adams and was amazed to find out after the fact that a lot of the stuff portrayed in it was true. I just don't remember him ever being portrayed as that important in the school history books, etc. Kinda sad in that regard. He played a critical role just as the others did.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I think it's a rather interesting issue since it's not like only part of Germany became Nazi and rebelled against the rest of the country, although that nearly did happen.

Taking down the Confederate flag is one thing. But, I can't see (white) Southerners throwing all their beloved heroes under a bus. Even a lot of people in the Union, like Grant and Sherman greatly respected Robert E. Lee and some of his contemporaries.

I mean, if our beef with people like Lee and (Stonewall) Jackson is slavery, then we should be consistent and also denounce Washington and Jefferson.

You're right. Taking down the Confederate flag from government buildings is one thing, and it seems that even most southerners are understanding that State Capitals shouldn't be flying a flag representing a failed rebellion But going after historic sites, memorials, museums, etc. would definitely turn the South against the movement.

The Union could have hanged Lee and Davis for being traitors, but it would have been counterproductive in trying to put the nation back together. Sometimes you have to look the other way in the interest of peace. The boot-to-throat approach to diplomacy doesn't work. All it does it leads to a spiteful population itching for revenge. We found that out the hard way with the Treaty of Versailles after World War I.

 

[Wylie Times]

I think it's a rather interesting issue since it's not like only part of Germany became Nazi and rebelled against the rest of the country, although that nearly did happen.

Taking down the Confederate flag is one thing. But, I can't see (white) Southerners throwing all their beloved heroes under a bus. Even a lot of people in the Union, like Grant and Sherman greatly respected Robert E. Lee and some of his contemporaries.

I mean, if our beef with people like Lee and (Stonewall) Jackson is slavery, then we should be consistent and also denounce Washington and Jefferson.

Many black people DO denounce Washington and Jefferson. The be black in America is to have a complicated and abusive relationship with your nations history.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, most countries have complicated histories.

America just has the misfortune of having one of its most influential founding fathers being a hypocrite.

Still got John Adams, Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine to fall back on for ideological consistency.