The Confederate flag

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm not denying that at all. I was commenting on a larger point.

You can say it was the wrong thing to do, but Lincoln and Grant made the decision to give the Confederates the most honorable surrender possible, including them keeping their citizenships. Like it or not, Lee, Longstreet, "Stonewall" Jackson, etc. are Americans. There's a reason why history(which the Union wrote in this case) is much kinder to the Confederate generals than they are to Benedict Arnold.

To demonize them now, 150 years later, is pointless and insulting to their descendants. Same with the flag. Racist elements may have put the flag up but the flag can be flown if people want it to be flown, regardless of it being for pride, heritage, and yes, racist elements. It is freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, after all.

Since South Carolina voted to lower Lee's battle flag, that was their call and they did it because the negative connotations (bigotry and racism) trumped the positive. If future legislatures vote to put it back up, that's their call.

Flags can represent what people want them to represent. If people want to fly Lee's flag or have it fly on state grounds, I hope it is for pride and heritage reasons, as those are honorable reasons to fly a flag. Dukes of Hazzard had the flag on the General Lee for this reason, which is why I disagree with the decision to erase the Dukes from availability as much as possible.

I would prefer if Lee's flag were allowed to be flown and be used to represent positive causes rather than it be erased because it was appropriated by a disgraceful cause like the KKK.

Who cares if it offends the descendants? Their forefathers deserved to lose the war. Secession and slavery were both wrong.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I'm sure there were Nazis who were just good soldiers and not evil degenerates but nobody cares because they fought for the wrong side.

What about Wernher von Braun? He was a Nazi and we treat him as a national hero.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

What about Wernher von Braun? He was a Nazi and we treat him as a national hero.

Despite his war record not because of it.

 

[Wylie Times]

I would prefer if Lee's flag were allowed to be flown and be used to represent positive causes rather than it be erased because it was appropriated by a disgraceful cause like the KKK.

Here's the thing:

People have had 150 years to change the meaning of the flag to something positive AND CHOSE NOT TO DO SO.

There's never been any attempt to make the flag a positive symbol.

The only reasons the damn flag was popularized in the first place was to show rebellion against the U.S. Government for freeing enslaved blacks and giving us equal rights to white southerners.

And as for the confederate generals, I don't find any of them to be honorable men. I feel the same way about most of the founding fathers of this nation too.

I'm not big on honoring or having any level of respect for anyone that would view me as lesser being just because I'm black.

 

[Schlosser85]

I don't see anyone "demonizing" Lee. Most people consider Robert E. Lee an honorable man. Many people, including his opponents, considered Erwin Rommel an honorable man too. It doesn't change what the Confederacy or the Third Reich fought for, or what their flags represented.

 

[Marvolo]

What about Wernher von Braun? He was a Nazi and we treat him as a national hero.

Lots of people were in the Nazi party. They weren't all mustache twirling evil monsters. Society and science and our technology development have benefited greatly from his contributions. That's what is celebrated. His undeniable contributions.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Lots of people were in the Nazi party. They weren't all mustache twirling evil monsters. Society and science and our technology development have benefited greatly from his contributions. That's what is celebrated. His undeniable contributions.

That was basically what I was getting at.

 

[Schlosser85]

Some people only joined the Nazi Party because use it was the ruling party and membership was good for their career.

Hell, Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi Party and saved 1,200 Jews.

And some of the German Generals like Rommel weren't Nazis in the first place.

Everything isn't black and white.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The thing is, what are were remembering, or in this case honoring these people for? There's no doubt that Robert E. Lee was an excellent general. He was a pleasant man by all accounts. He treated his slaves well, and he even seemed to want slavery to end at some point. And to his credit, he was also a proponent of reconciliation.

But why are Southern states celebrating this man? Or Stonewall Jackson? Because he was a hero of the Confederacy. Celebrating him is no different than flying a Confederate flag.

Rommel is probably the most uncontroversial figure in Nazi Germany. But the Germans still have the sense not to name streets after him, or build statues of him.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What about Wernher von Braun? He was a Nazi and we treat him as a national hero.

And that is a God damn shame. Von Braun is a Nazi war criminal. He, and as far as I am concerned every other party member should have been shot.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Sorry, just realized I responded twice to the same basic post. Please delete this post.

 

[Marvolo]

That was basically what I was getting at.

Oops. I didn't read the context of your statement. I read it as you saying that Braun should not be treated as a national hero. I get what you were saying now.

Some people only joined the Nazi Party because use it was the ruling party and membership was good for their career.

Hell, Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi Party and saved 1,200 Jews.

And some of the German Generals like Rommel weren't Nazis in the first place.

Everything isn't black and white.

Yeah, it was a pragmatic choice and the only choice for a number of people. In some cases it was likely be a Nazi or take a bullet to the head.

 

[Marvolo]

And that is a God damn shame. Von Braun is a Nazi war criminal. He, and as far as I am concerned every other party member should have been shot.

Well thank God people in charge of the decision of their fates didn't think like you. So much of our current technology is owed to NASA and their research and development and space flight that I'm grateful for Braun's scientific work.

I'm going to need you to show me some concrete evidence that he was a war criminal. More than just heresay and testimonies of unreliable witnesses. As far as I'm aware he never gassed anyone or partook in the murder of any innocents.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well thank God people in charge of the decision of their fates didn't think like you. So much of our current technology is owed to NASA and their research and development and space flight that I'm grateful for Braun's scientific work. I'm going to need you to show me some concrete evidence that he was a war criminal. More than just heresay and testimonies of unreliable witnesses. As far as I'm aware he never gassed anyone or partook in the murder of any innocents.

God forbid we have some scruples! Von Braun wasn't even the worst Nazi NASA employed (you might want to read about that), but I digress. Still, working slave laborers to death, and killing a thousand Londoners, yeah, that's still a ****ing issue. But I digress.

There were other rocket scientists. Hell, Von Braun outright copied work from America's own Robert Goddard. Was he one of the best in his field? Evidently. Could we have done without him? Yes. Did the USSR's Sergei Korolev manage to put the first object and man into space without any affiliation to Nazi Germany? Well, obviously.

So at best, we would have gotten everything done without Von Braun at a slightly slower pace. I'd rather wait a few years and still get to the moon, than in any way legitimize that Nazi piece of ****.

 

[Marvolo]

God forbid we have some scruples! Von Braun wasn't even the worst Nazi NASA employed (you might want to read about that), but I digress. Still, working slave laborers to death, and killing a thousand Londoners, yeah, that's still a ****ing issue. But I digress.

There were other rocket scientists. Hell, Von Braun outright copied work from America's own Robert Goddard. Was he one of the best in his field? Evidently. Could we have done without him? Yes. Did the USSR's Sergei Korolev manage to put the first object and man into space without any affiliation to Nazi Germany? Well, obviously.

So at best, we would have gotten everything done without Von Braun at a slightly slower pace. I'd rather wait a few years and still get to the moon, than in any way legitimize that Nazi piece of ****.

Last I checked he wasn't personally launching the bombs that killed Londoners. Holding him personally responsible for what the military brass did is absurd. Also he showed regret for the death of the victims.

He also complimented Goddard's part in the rocket industry. And I'm sure no American scientist or our military ever stole a single bit of someone else's work. Only an evil Nazi would do such a thing.

The decision to use slaves on the rocketry projects was a decision made above his position. Not by him personally. He spoke against the conditions of the slaves and the camps. Unfortunately Braun wasn't Captain America so there wasn't much he himself could do accept put up a futile fight in which case he would have been murdered and replaced.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Some people only joined the Nazi Party because use it was the ruling party and membership was good for their career.

Hell, Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi Party and saved 1,200 Jews.

And some of the German Generals like Rommel weren't Nazis in the first place.

Everything isn't black and white.

My point is the South needs more respect for people like Sojourner Truth.

People like her are the Oskar Schindler's of America.

But no, they celebrate war heroes who fought to take Sojourner Truth back to slavery.

Oh it's not black and white?

Bull, there's no reason to glorify the Southern war heroes other than to glorify their cause (which included slavery and secession).

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

In the book "Man's Search For Meaning", Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl claims that there were good natured Nazi guards and evil Jew victims.

But that still doesn't mean we celebrate Nazis for their heroism during WW2.

 

[Schlosser85]

And that is a God damn shame. Von Braun is a Nazi war criminal. He, and as far as I am concerned every other party member should have been shot.

Every party member?? That would have included Schindler.

 

[regwec]

I was about to say that!

 

[Wylie Times]

The thing is, what are were remembering, or in this case honoring these people for? There's no doubt that Robert E. Lee was an excellent general. He was a pleasant man by all accounts. He treated his slaves well, and he even seemed to want slavery to end at some point. And to his credit, he was also a proponent of reconciliation.

I wish people would stop saying stuff like this. Nobody treated black people that they enslaved "well". Some obviously treated these people better than others but they were still enslaved, exploited for profit and seen as inferior to white people.

But why are Southern states celebrating this man? Or Stonewall Jackson? Because he was a hero of the Confederacy. Celebrating him is no different than flying a Confederate flag.

Rommel is probably the most uncontroversial figure in Nazi Germany. But the Germans still have the sense not to name streets after him, or build statues of him.

It's very telling that after those states started taking down confederate flags, many supporters of the flag started demanded that any monuments to civil rights workers or anything honoring enslaved blacks be taken down also.

 

[Wylie Times]

My point is the South needs more respect for people like Sojourner Truth.

People like her are the Oskar Schindler's of America.

But no, they celebrate war heroes who fought to take Sojourner Truth back to slavery.

Oh it's not black and white?

Bull, there's no reason to glorify the Southern war heroes other than to glorify their cause (which included slavery and secession).

Yup, for all the talk of honoring southerners and cherishing the history of the south, it's funny how the vast majority of the people honored are white males.

Also funny how the people who fly the rebel flag do so to honor men who fought for their freedom and states rights (and lost), but NOBODY celebrates any of the attempted uprisings/rebellions by enslaved blacks.

 

[regwec]

Yup, for all the talk of honoring southerners and cherishing the history of the south, it's funny how the vast majority of the people honored are white males.

Do you really find this surprising, in even an ironic sense? You seem to be toying with the absurd position of denigrating high culture because it was produced by "dead white males".

 

[Wylie Times]

Do you really find this surprising, in even an ironic sense? You seem to be toying with the absurd position of denigrating high culture because it was produced by "dead white males".

What in the bloody hell are you talking about?

I'm saying that all this "southern pride" and "honoring" the history of the south is purposefully white washed so as to make white males seem as if they're the only notable people in history.

In the South they'll quickly build and have monuments to Confederate soldiers, Klan leaders, and plantation owners, but people have to fight tooth and nail to for black freedom fighters, civil rights workers, and inventors to simply acknowledged.

As I've said throughout this thread, more often than not "Southern pride" always seems to result in the complete erasure of black southerners.

 

[regwec]

Okay, I see what you mean. I thought you were making the (common) argument that culture or history in which "white males" were the major actors is inherently unworthy of appreciation. I am sorry if I was mistaken.

 

[Wylie Times]

Okay, I see what you mean. I thought you were making the (common) argument that culture or history in which "white males" were the major actors is inherently unworthy of appreciation. I am sorry if I was mistaken.

I've only seen that argument made by black separatists.

I will say that the premise that white males are THE major actors throughout history is false. Many important historical figures are downplayed because they're not white males.

My stance is if you're going to honor history do it by telling the truth (both good and bad), and not leaving out huge chunks of it because it doesn't center white males.

People of color (both men and women) have shaped history just as much as white men.