The Confederate flag

[Thundercrack85]

While making slavery the vocal point of the Civil War is historically inaccurate, that's a whole different discussion for another thread.

However, I believe the vast majority of people displaying Confederate flag parphanelia aren't racist at all, I know a handfull of them, and none of them have racist tendacies. I think it has a lot more to do with simply wanting to "be a rebel".

You mean focal? It is not historically inaccurate. You seem to have fallen victim to Southern revisionism.

 

[zeroapoc]

It didn't represent racism though, which the Confederate flag does & has also been seen displayed a lot among white supremacists groups too.

Well kinda if you think about it. Practically all the founding fathers were slave owners. I'll never really understand why they practically get a free pass. Plus slavery was in effect under the American flag for far longer.

As for the Confederate flag issue. I'm Southern and I have no use for the damn thing. I've never understood the heritage argument as it only represents a very brief period in our history 150+ years ago. Why latch on to that?

And yeah if you live in a place where that argument doesn't even apply then I have a hard time believing there isn't a racial component to displaying it.

 

[Pink Ranger]

And yeah if you live in a place where that argument doesn't even apply then I have a hard time believing there isn't a racial component to displaying it.

I'm sure it will be a trendy thing to wear in South Korea one day.

 

[The Question]

Okay, so completely inaccurate was robably ot the right term. The fight over slavery was oe of te top concerns of the southern states at the time. But it wasn't the only reason lumped togther under the basic issue of states rights. What I'm saying is that the flag shouldn't be seen as a "symbol of slavery".

A state's right to what, exactly?

The war would never have happened if slavery weren't an issue.

The confederate flag represents a group of people who went to war solely because they didn't want to give up owning slaves. It is inherently a symbol of slavery.

 

[zeroapoc]

I'm sure it will be a trendy thing to wear in South Korea one day.

Are they still doing the Hitler thing?

 

[DeadPresident]

Okay, so completely inaccurate was robably ot the right term. The fight over slavery was oe of te top concerns of the southern states at the time. But it wasn't the only reason lumped togther under the basic issue of states rights. What I'm saying is that the flag shouldn't be seen as a "symbol of slavery".

How "should" it not be seen as a symbol of slavery? Since most of the other issues have been resolved that were being contested at the time, what other issues could they possibly be trying to evoke with that flag other than the one most popularly associated with it?

It's kind of like saying when you see a guy walking around in a neighborhood with a knife you shouldn't expect violence or malice. Maybe he's just going to use the handle to hammer in some nails? Or maybe he can't find a screw driver and he's going to try the knife? Yeah - possibly, but on balance of probably he'll use a knife for what it was designed for.

 

[Thundercrack85]

"The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue."

That's from South Carolina's declaration of independence. The preamble.

"The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation."



Those reserved rights are slavery.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

While making slavery the vocal point of the Civil War is historically inaccurate, that's a whole different discussion for another thread.

However, I believe the vast majority of people displaying Confederate flag parphanelia aren't racist at all, I know a handfull of them, and none of them have racist tendacies. I think it has a lot more to do with simply wanting to "be a rebel".

Wow…. they want to be "rebels"…. they must be so cool.

 

[Mightmitenot]

Plus slavery was in effect under the American flag for far longer.

But the American flag has been a functioning flag of state longer. Pointless objection.

 

[warhorse78]

Your head is deeply planted in the sand yet you tell people who are offended to do "do research and learn the facts".

It's extremely ironic.

Here are the facts, go ahead and disprove them with your deep historical knowledge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...e-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html

You think feeling apathy towards ugly symbols like the swastika and the Confederate flag makes you tough skinned? No, it only shows ignorance and a lack of empathy towards your fellow man.

I'm not ignorant, but I am very cold hearted and have little to no sympathy for anyone. I got that from my dad, who got that from his father, who watched his father get killed by the Nazis. Dad always said, if you let the evil doings of people in the past keep getting you riled up, then they have already won that battle because generations later are not letting it go. You and others going around trying to tell people what they can and cannot possess as long as it's not hurting anyone physical is just causing more stife amongst people. Instead of focusing all of that energy on stuff you hate seeing other people do, why use that energy to welcome those people into the cultures and lifestyle you like by having a festival? In my area, they have two major events going on in May. One is going to be some march against police brutality, the other one is going to be a Jamaican/Caribbean festival at the South Florida fair grounds. Guess which one I'm going to! Can't wait either, I love jerk chicken!

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm not ignorant, but I am very cold hearted and have little to no sympathy for anyone. I got that from my dad, who got that from his father, who watched his father get killed by the Nazis. Dad always said, if you let the evil doings of people in the past keep getting you riled up, then they have already won that battle because generations later are not letting it go. You and others going around trying to tell people what they can and cannot possess as long as it's not hurting anyone physical is just causing more stife amongst people. Instead of focusing all of that energy on stuff you hate seeing other people do, why use that energy to welcome those people into the cultures and lifestyle you like by having a festival? In my area, they have two major events going on in May. One is going to be some march against police brutality, the other one is going to be a Jamaican/Caribbean festival at the South Florida fair grounds. Guess which one I'm going to! Can't wait either, I love jerk chicken!

Well that's your family tradition, not mine.

My tradition is learning from history so mistakes aren't repeated.

I teach my kids to value civil liberties, charity and historical lessons.

They're more into dub step, video games and being popular but I'd rather they be themselves than carry on my personal legacy that's ultimately lost in time like tears in the rain.

 

[warhorse78]

Well that's your family tradition, not mine.

My tradition is learning from history so mistakes aren't repeated.

I teach my kids to value civil liberties, charity and historical lessons.

They're more into dub step, video games and being popular but I'd rather they be themselves than carry on my personal legacy that's ultimately lost in time like tears in the rain.

It's hardly a tradition, it's just a saying my dad had (who died a few years ago), and I just carried it. My mom could care less either way. It's hard to have a tradition when it was ripped from us nearly a century ago. Only thing I can recall is live for the moment, and don't dwell too much on the past. I'm assuming I have gotten cold to people in general because I lost so many friends to drugs and violence, that I just don't care anymore.

 

[zeroapoc]

But the American flag has been a functioning flag of state longer. Pointless objection.

I don't know how that fact makes my "objection" pointless, but ok.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be objecting. It was just a minor comment. Did you even read the rest of my post?

 

[Uskok]

"Southern pride" is fine, but why not just use your state's flag instead?

Because the Confederate battle flag, for the Southerners, represents the entire South, not just one state.

Your head is deeply planted in the sand yet you tell people who are offended to do "do research and learn the facts".

It's extremely ironic.

Here are the facts, go ahead and disprove them with your deep historical knowledge.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...e-south-seceded/2011/01/03/ABHr6jD_story.html

You think feeling apathy towards ugly symbols like the swastika and the Confederate flag makes you tough skinned? No, it only shows ignorance and a lack of empathy towards your fellow man.

The fact is that the US flag represented a slaveholding nation for 89 years. The Confederate flag represented a slaveholding nation for only 4 years, but people are complaining only about the Confederate flag. Could you explain why?

This. It is naive to say that there are no racist connotations of the Confederate flag and that it's "only to stand against oppressive government and Southern Pride" when basically, the Confederacy stood for slavery and saw minorities as less than human beings. You can't separate what the Confederacy stood for, which was slavery.

The confederate flag is very distasteful.

Now you're going too far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Jewish_Americans#Jews_and_the_Confederacy

That way of life was slavery though.

That way of life was completely normal at that time. You can't judge people of the past by modern standards.

A state's right to what, exactly?

To secede from the Union.

 

[Thundercrack85]

From its inception, slavery has been controversial. Even many prominent Southerners acknowledged that slavery was evil. Though they viewed it as a necessary evil. It was a half assed acknowledgement of their crimes, but it's worth noting. It was something they hated to discuss, because it shamed them.

The American Civil War is one of those few "good vs evil" wars.

 

[Thundercrack85]

To secede from the Union.

The South seceded from the Union to preserve the state right to secede from the Union?

 

[Uskok]

The South seceded from the Union to preserve the state right to secede from the Union?

They seceded because they believed the Union was becoming different than the America they were accustomed to. They didn't want to live in the United States of Yankeeland.

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's funny you should say that. New England wanted to break away from the Union because it became dominated by Southerners.

But you're not wrong. The country was turning against slavery.

 

[The Question]

That way of life was completely normal at that time. You can't judge people of the past by modern standards.

The slaves didn't feel that way.

To secede from the Union.

Over slavery.

They seceded because they believed the Union was becoming different than the America they were accustomed to. They didn't want to live in the United States of Yankeeland.

… where slavery was illegal.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The fact is that the US flag represented a slaveholding nation for 89 years. The Confederate flag represented a slaveholding nation for only 4 years, but people are complaining only about the Confederate flag. Could you explain why?

Well what flag represented the side that stopped the Confederates from continuing slavery?

What side has outlawed slavery for the last 150 years?

We should just ignore those "minor" facts?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Uskok if you're fighting with practically everyone in this thread (many who disagree with each other on other topics, but are united about this) then it might.... just might.... be you who's wrong or in denial about the flag's real meaning.

 

[CaptainWagner]

A state's right to what, exactly?

The war would never have happened if slavery weren't an issue.

The confederate flag represents a group of people who went to war solely because they didn't want to give up owning slaves. It is inherently a symbol of slavery.

Tarrifs were also a huge part of the States Rights debate, and were an issue just as important to the South as slavery, due to their lack of an industrial complex. Before the Civil War, Amea had narrowly avoided a previous secession crisis over a new tarrif, and it was still a major issue at the time of the War.

Therefore, to say that slavery was the sole cause of the war is to be historically inaccurate. For example, Robert E. Lee himself was opposed to slavery, but also opposed to the Northern bolitionis plans he viewed as unconstitutional.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Yeah. The confederate flag hanging up in southern dorm rooms and on the back of pick-up trucks is really about mid 19th century tariffs. Give me a break...

 

[CaptainWagner]

Yeah. The confederate flag hanging up in southern dorm rooms and on the back of pick-up trucks is really about mid 19th century tariffs. Give me a break...

I was not saying that's why people hng up the flag, I was saying that to view the flag as a banner of slavery is histically inaccurate.

 

[Decepticonus]

The south seceded mainly because the lost the election of 1860. They were the spoiled rotten children who decided to pout about not getting their way.