The Confederate flag

Is it cringe worthy for the certain people using the confederate flag?

  • no

  • yes


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But at least we'd have more documentation on the Holocaust, and names.

Thank God for the Nazis' meticulous record keeping and organizational skills though.

No one knew who Adolf Eichmann was until his name started popping up on all kinds of paperwork related to the Holocaust the Allies were sifting through during the Nuremberg trials.
 
True. But while I don't think for a moment Adolf Eichmann was a fall guy as he tried to depict himself (he was an ardent, genocidal Nazi), he was only one man. Auschwitz alone was staffed by thousands. And that was but one camp.

99% of the people involved in the Holocaust were never brought to justice. Hopefully a fraction of those were killed in the course of the war, but it's still a travesty.
 
Oh yea, I was just using Eichmann as an example. Tons of people slipped through the cracks.
 
There were declassified CIA documents a few years ago indicating they knew where Eichmann was all along after the war and didn't do anything about it or share it.
 
I have mixed feelings about the Nuremberg trials.

I don't know how I feel about Karl Doenitz being sentenced to 20 years in prison, when a major piece of evidence against him was an order forbidding U-Boats from picking up survivors from sunken Allied ships (which Doenitz issued in retaliation for an American plane bombing a U-Boat on the surface flying a white flag with rescued British seamen onboard). American Admiral Chester Nimitz even testified in Doenitz's defense and admitted he'd issued almost identical orders to his own forces in the Pacific.

But on the other hand, Albert Speer only got sentenced to 20 years when he should have hanged, IMO. I mean, his memoirs Inside the Third Reich are a great read and a great "peek behind the curtain", but morally, Speer deserved to hang as much the others who did, maybe more than some of them.

Consider this: Fritz Sauckel rounded up slave labor and supplied them to Speer, who used them in his factories, where many were worked to death. Sauckel was hanged, and Speer got 20 years. What logic does it make to hang the one who supplied the slaves and spare the one who used them?

My opinion: Sauckel was an ugly, uncouth, grubby little man and Speer was a suave, sophisticated intellectual. One of the judges even commented about Speer, "he doesn't look like a Nazi (whatever that's supposed to mean), he looks like someone we'd play golf with at the country club".

In my opinion, Speer just slick talked his way out of the hangman's noose, aided by the judges' class bias.
 
It's why I hold a grudge towards West Germany, and Germany to this day.

Though for the record, I don't hold that against Germans. Just their government. Though I suppose at this stage, it's sort of a lost cause, since most of the bad people are dead, and Germany thanks to the reunification is a whole new animal.

I guess I'll just keep hating Konrad Adenauer.
 
Still, it seems like the man never quite left the 19th century mentally.

In some ways that's true, but Hitler's thinking was more in line with Austria than that of Germany.

Otto Von Bismark and the Germans (to which I'm talking about Prussia and the German Confederation) wasn't interested in conquering non-Germanic territories, which is why the German Confederation chose to unite with Prussia and not Austria. They didn't want to unite with non-Germanic peoples of Austria and prefered a "small" German solution that featured Germany taking lands with majorily German populations.

Hitler was different as his beliefs were a lot more radical than Bismark. Hitler believed that where there were any (even if minor) German populations, Germany had a claim and right to take those lands. This was called the greater German Solution, and it was an idea that Austria had in terms of uniting Germany.

Bismark, Prussia, and the German Confederation hated that Greater German Solution because they believed it would be troubling to have so many non German groups in a unified Germany and it wouldn't be a unified German state. In addition, the mostly protestant German Confederation did not want to be ruled by a Catholic ruler with Austria.

That's what I always considered it ironic that Bismark and Germany left Austria out of the German Empire because of their support of a Greater German Solution and decades later Hitler, an Austrian and a believer of the Greater German Solution, ascended to power in Germany and ultimately led to Germany's downfall as a world power.
 
I have mixed feelings about the Nuremberg trials.

I don't know how I feel about Karl Doenitz being sentenced to 20 years in prison, when a major piece of evidence against him was an order forbidding U-Boats from picking up survivors from sunken Allied ships (which Doenitz issued in retaliation for an American plane bombing a U-Boat on the surface flying a white flag with rescued British seamen onboard). American Admiral Chester Nimitz even testified in Doenitz's defense and admitted he'd issued almost identical orders to his own forces in the Pacific.

But on the other hand, Albert Speer only got sentenced to 20 years when he should have hanged, IMO. I mean, his memoirs Inside the Third Reich are a great read and a great "peek behind the curtain", but morally, Speer deserved to hang as much the others who did, maybe more than some of them.

Consider this: Fritz Sauckel rounded up slave labor and supplied them to Speer, who used them in his factories, where many were worked to death. Sauckel was hanged, and Speer got 20 years. What logic does it make to hang the one who supplied the slaves and spare the one who used them?

My opinion: Sauckel was an ugly, uncouth, grubby little man and Speer was a suave, sophisticated intellectual. One of the judges even commented about Speer, "he doesn't look like a Nazi (whatever that's supposed to mean), he looks like someone we'd play golf with at the country club".

In my opinion, Speer just slick talked his way out of the hangman's noose, aided by the judges' class bias.

I have mixed feelings about Doenitz (too lazy to figure out how to make an umlaut on this computer). At least he didn't give orders telling crews to machine gun survivors.

Speer though yeah. I believe it was Fest who proved he lied about his knowledge of the Holocaust. Which seemed rather ridiculous from day one. The guy that high up, involved in infrastructure doesn't know about the death camps? Really?

This is also the guy who said he was going to kill Hitler, but couldn't go through with the plan because he couldn't find a ladder (he was going to poison Hitler with gas through a vent or something).

I think the fact that Speer showed (emphasis on showed) remorse probably helped too. He should have been sent to Siberia.
 
In some ways that's true, but Hitler's thinking was more in line with Austria than that of Germany.

Otto Von Bismark and the Germans (to which I'm talking about Prussia and the German Confederation) wasn't interested in conquering non-Germanic territories, which is why the German Confederation chose to unite with Prussia and not Austria. They didn't want to unite with non-Germanic peoples of Austria and prefered a "small" German solution that featured Germany taking lands with majorily German populations.

Hitler was different as his beliefs were a lot more radical than Bismark. Hitler believed that where there were any (even if minor) German populations, Germany had a claim and right to take those lands. This was called the greater German Solution, and it was an idea that Austria had in terms of uniting Germany.

Bismark, Prussia, and the German Confederation hated that Greater German Solution because they believed it would be troubling to have so many non German groups in a unified Germany and it wouldn't be a unified German state. In addition, the mostly protestant German Confederation did not want to be ruled by a Catholic ruler with Austria.

That's what I always considered it ironic that Bismark and Germany left Austria out of the German Empire because of their support of a Greater German Solution and decades later Hitler, an Austrian and a believer of the Greater German Solution, ascended to power in Germany and ultimately led to Germany's downfall as a world power.

I imagine it had a lot to do with Prussian elitism. The Prussians always looked down on the other ethnic Germans. I remember the story that Hindenburg thought that Hitler was from Bohemia rather than Austria because there was a town called Braunau (Hitler's birthplace) in Bohemia as well (now in the Czech Republic). Other Prussians said the same as a joke, even after it became obvious that he wasn't a Sudeten German.
 
I have mixed feelings about Doenitz (too lazy to figure out how to make an umlaut on this computer). At least he didn't give orders telling crews to machine gun survivors.

Speer though yeah. I believe it was Fest who proved he lied about his knowledge of the Holocaust. Which seemed rather ridiculous from day one. The guy that high up, involved in infrastructure doesn't know about the death camps? Really?

This is also the guy who said he was going to kill Hitler, but couldn't go through with the plan because he couldn't find a ladder (he was going to poison Hitler with gas through a vent or something).

I think the fact that Speer showed (emphasis on showed) remorse probably helped too. He should have been sent to Siberia.

There was also the Potsdam conference of Himmler and a bunch of senior SS and other Nazi officials, where Himmler spoke freely about "the extermination of the Jews", and referred to Speer multiple times by name as if speaking directly to him, despite Speer claiming he wasn't there.

During the Nuremberg Trials, Speer insisted up and down he'd never visited a concentration camp, but they found a photograph of him with the Kommandant of Mauthausen (or Dachau, maybe), with emaciated concentration camp prisoners being marched by in the background right behind him.

Sure, Albert.
 
I imagine it had a lot to do with Prussian elitism. The Prussians always looked down on the other ethnic Germans. I remember the story that Hindenburg thought that Hitler was from Bohemia rather than Austria because there was a town called Braunau (Hitler's birthplace) in Bohemia as well (now in the Czech Republic). Other Prussians said the same as a joke, even after it became obvious that he wasn't a Sudeten German.

Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt, Commander-in-Chief of all German forces on the Western Front, referred to Hitler as "that Bohemian Corporal".
 
There was also the Potsdam conference of Himmler and a bunch of senior SS and other Nazi officials, where Himmler spoke freely about "the extermination of the Jews", and referred to Speer multiple times by name as if speaking directly to him, despite Speer claiming he wasn't there.

During the Nuremberg Trials, Speer insisted up and down he'd never visited a concentration camp, but they found a photograph of him with the Kommandant of Mauthausen (or Dachau, maybe), with emaciated concentration camp prisoners being marched by in the background right behind him.

Sure, Albert.

Wow. I didn't know he actually went to one. Yikes.

Yeah... Wish they would have hanged that bastard.
 
Field Marshal Gerd von Rundstedt, Commander-in-Chief of all German forces on the Western Front, referred to Hitler as "that Bohemian Corporal".

Oh those Junkers.

Well, Hitler got them back. Half of ****ing Prussia is Poland now.
 
I imagine it had a lot to do with Prussian elitism. The Prussians always looked down on the other ethnic Germans. I remember the story that Hindenburg thought that Hitler was from Bohemia rather than Austria because there was a town called Braunau (Hitler's birthplace) in Bohemia as well (now in the Czech Republic). Other Prussians said the same as a joke, even after it became obvious that he wasn't a Sudeten German.

It was partly that, but more the fact that Austria just had a huge chunk of non Germans and non-Germanic land in their empire, such as Hungarians, Czechs, Croats, and Romanians. Austria didn't want to give up those lands to enter a unified German Empire.
 
It was partly that, but more the fact that Austria just had a huge chunk of non Germans and non-Germanic land in their empire, such as Hungarians, Czechs, Croats, and Romanians. Austria didn't want to give up those lands to enter a unified German Empire.

I guess I never really thought about it much but I guess modern-day Austria is just a sovereign Bavaria. Or a discount Switzerland.

Particularly weird since I have lived there.

And I'm not knocking Austria. Switzerland is just really, really pricy.
 
The S.C. senate voted to take down the flag.

It's good to know business and local government leaders are not Confederacy sympathizers or at the very least don't care about offending confederate sympathizers.
 
The S.C. senate voted to take down the flag.

It's good to know business and local government leaders are not Confederacy sympathizers or at the very least don't care about offending confederate sympathizers.

This will all blow over soon and the Confederate flag will remain. You'll see.
 
Memphis City Council unanimously approved the removal of Forrest Remains from Municipal Park.

I didn't even know there was a monument to a guy who was the first Ku klux klan Grand Wizard.

It is one thing to have monuments to confederate soldiers but having one to a guy who was also a klan leader seems crazy.
 
Did he do anything else that was notable?
 
Well, they took it down.

They haven't taken it down yet. The bill just passed the House last night. It passed in the Senate on July 6. The governor still needs to sign the bill into law which will probably happen today. Then it has to be taken down within 24 hours of her signing the bill.

That picture of it being taken down in DJ's post was from when an African-American girl from Charlotte, NC scaled the poll and removed it the other day, but she was arrested and it was immediately put back up.

As of right now, the confederate flag is still flying.
 
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I am trying to work out why he was commemorated. He appears to have exhibited personal physical courage. His address to his troops at the end of the war is a decent, workmanlike exhortation towards reconciliation. He dissolved the KKK, though only after having been leader of it.

Overall, I am baffled.
 
You know, I get it, but I kinda roll my eyes at how now was the right time to take all this stuff down.
 
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