The Court of Owls Speculation Thread

[Art Vandelay]

A thought just crossed my mind.

If this movie is like Se7en and Zodiac but with Riddler... what if the sequel is like "The Game" but with the Court of Owls?

It's funny you should say that, because I got more of a "The Game" vibe than "Se7en" when watching the trailer .

 

[Omegabat]

I never particularly cared about Court of Owls and I'm kinda glad to see people here feel that there is a lot of convoluted story telling in the original arc that makes it one of the most overrated stories of all time to me. That said, I wouldn't mind Court of Owls if they were basically just the Black Glove with the Court's name attached to it. The Bohemian Club inspiration is excellent, that's what rich evil rich people should logically behave like. More of that and hopefully Reeves looked at Spectre because that film is Court of Owls with all the bad parts. The Talons can be reinterpreted and hopefully Reeves gives them some personality and weight because in the comics these characters are just fodder and always have been.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I definitely think the Court Of Owls could be involved either with this film or a sequel. It literally just feels right to use them in this trilogy.

 

[C Prometheus]

I was thinking about some of the theories and details we've heard about here and there overtime this afternoon and I think I might have a couple of new theories to provide in here. Not a guarantee, obviously, but still something I hope is worth bringing up.

1. Ages back, when Jett Ramey was asked what films he'd heard were influences for The Batman, he name-dropped Se7en, Zodiac, Chinatown, Klute, The Third Man, Out of the Past and Dial M for Murder. That last film always struck me as an odd choice, because while it's a Hitchcock movie, it's not exactly an obvious example of film noir. Nor did its plot have much of any obvious elements that could spark inspiration from the pieces we'd heard of... until now.

So to the uninitiated, Dial M for Murder is a suspense thriller about a man who tries to have his cheating wife murdered, only for her to accidentally kill the assassin in self-defense. Following that, the husband then tampers with the evidence and set her up in the eyes of the police force in hopes of her being executed by the law instead.

So what exactly does that narrative have anything to do with at all about The Batman? The only thing I could think of up to now was that Bella Real might be a potential suspect in the mystery of the murder of the mayor, but how would that have much of any weight in the narrative... but now that the Court of Owls are possibly in play, perhaps the influence (if it's legit) is that the Court use Riddler's murder of the Mayor to set Bella up as a potential scapegoat in order to hinder her grassroots political movement from making substantial change in Gotham City and interfere with their plans?

2. As one or two others already suggested here and elsewhere online, if the Court of Owls are indeed present in this trilogy and are part of the corruption that Riddler was referring to in his dialogue to Batman in the teaser, I suspect that Thomas and Martha Wayne were both members of the Court in this universe rather than potential victims of their wrath.

Moreover I suspect that if the Court is in play, Bruce might well be eyed by the Court right now as a potential Talon, like Dick was in the comics.

 

[shauner111]

You could definitely be on to something. At the same time, an influence doesn’t mean it has to be a narrative one. The tone, genre and visual style of filmmaking could be the influence instead.

 

[BatLobster]

Interesting theory @C Prometheus, thanks for sharing.

The Court trying to recruit Bruce and have part of his arc being rejecting that and establishing himself as something new for Gotham would honestly make a lot of sense. Would also kinda parallel how The League tried to recruit Bruce in Begins. I think The Court could serve a similar narrative function as the central 'evil organization' in this trilogy.

I think my only concern with this movie is the internet is going to figure the whole thing out before the fact, haha. I honestly would be totally fine if they didn't release another trailer but I know there's 0 chance of that. But this trailer was seriously juicy enough to have been a final trailer.

 

[TheBattinson]

Riddler having a natural motivation to expose the court, would make a lot of sense. And by proxy the Batman, or Bruce Wayne himself as the heir to already established members in Thomas and Martha Wayne.

Riddler being a super intelligent, and zodiac like serial killer of prominent Gotham individuals, makes a lot of sense.

Which I think, and if anyone else can clarify, is what the ending dialogue from the Riddler in the trailer implies.

Maybe the Wayne family legacy were a part of the court of owls, but not necessarily manipulating Gotham for nefarious purposes, but altruistic ones.

But maybe the court of owls since then has become a more sinister organization, and kept Gotham citizens oppressed and poor. As seen in the very run down, old, and poor state of Gotham.

By the way, does anyone know when this film takes place? I saw the cell phones, but given the vehicle is used, and even using the Nirvana song in the trailer, does this film take place in the 90s?

There is a lot of great elements and inspirations at work here.

You could string the court of owls out as an organizational antagonist throughout Reeves entire trilogy if you wanted. Much like the League in TDKT.

I definitely see a lot of inspiration from Seven, China Town, and most importantly as a Batman fan from Taxi Driver. Just like the original Darren Aronofsky’s Year One script. I see a lot of visual similarities to both the preproduction artwork, tone, and descriptions from that script for Batman, his world, and his gadgets as well

And honestly, based on the Taxi Driver inspiration or even the Darren Aronofsky Year One script, even more so than Batman Begins, there was more to bite off of as an actor for an intriguing dimensional performance as Bruce Wayne than in any other Batman movie. As a character study.

I could certainly envision Robert Pattinson potentially getting Oscar consideration for character work in this movie.

But the emphasis on detective work and making it akin to great serial killer / conspiracy crime drama films like Zodiac, Chinatown, and Seven makes this even more interesting. I never thought after the Nolan trilogy, a version and take on the mythos would have me as intrigued as that one did. But this one definitely fits the bill and wets the appetite.

Have to admit, after the screen test, and more importantly after this most recent trailer and interview with Matt Reeves, I’m as excited for this movie, as I have been for basically all Batman movies pre-release, with the exception of The Dark Knight being the pinnacle of hype. Very exciting times for DC on film and Batman on film fandom again.

Will certainly wash that sour taste out of our collective mouths from BvS, and definitely Justice League.

I loved Matt Reeves well work before I even paid attention to the fact of who Matt Reeves was. Even before he was taking on a film version of my favorite character.

Cloverfield? By far the best kaiju destructive monster movie I’ve ever seen.

The planet of the apes sequels? Utterly amazing.

I have absolutely no nervousness now about this film. The only thing I’m not entirely thrilled about, is Robert Pattinson‘s hair, and look as Bruce Wayne. It looks far to IMO, petite, and slender. Boyishly European. And honestly emo. Like Peter Parker in SM3.

 

[Invader Joker]

I've read a theory that maybe the Waynes were killed in this version by a vigilante that got wronged by them and the Court. That'd be such a wrench to throw at Bruce, the fact he has more in common with the killer of his parents than with his parents.

 

[TheBattinson]

I've read a theory that maybe the Waynes were killed in this version by a vigilante that got wronged by them and the Court. That'd be such a wrench to throw at Bruce, the fact he has more in common with the killer of his parents than with his parents.

Yes, the Wayne’s being wealthy, affluent, powerful members in the court. But having altruistic intentions and for that they were removed forcibly by assassins from the court. Certainly seems interesting and plausible.

 

[Boy Scout]

I love the idea of Bruce having to struggle with the reality that his parents weren’t the paragons of virtue he thought they were when he died. I don’t ever want to see them be evil or anything, but I think being forced to confront the fact that his parents were three dimensional people who didn’t always make morally sound decisions would be juicy material. What does it mean for the mission when the people he started it all for might have contributed in some way to the very rot that killed then? How does Bruce, a person often depicted as emotionally fractured, pick up the pieces and continue to be Batman when his entire reason worldview is turned on its head?

Telltale did a brilliant job of it, I thought. The Waynes weren’t explicitly evil, but they were flawed. Alfred being the one to have to break the news to Bruce as if he were a child really stuck with me for some reason.

 

[TheBattinson]

I love the idea of Bruce having to struggle with the reality that his parents weren’t the paragons of virtue he thought they were when he died. I don’t ever want to see them be evil or anything, but I think being forced to confront the fact that his parents were three dimensional people who didn’t always make morally sound decisions would be juicy material. What does it mean for the mission when the people he started it all for might have contributed in some way to the very rot that killed then? How does Bruce, a person often depicted as emotionally fractured, pick up the pieces and continue to be Batman when his entire reason worldview is turned on its head?

Telltale did a brilliant job of it, I thought. The Wayne’s weren’t explicitly evil, but they were flawed. Alfred being the one to have to break the news to Bruce as if he were a child really stuck with me for some reason.

Well I mean that’s the beauty of Batman. He himself, much like his parents, is flawed. Conflicted. Altruistic but has seething dark impulses and violent. He’s not a Boy Scout. He’s not Superman. He’s altruistic but he’s basically a borderline antihero vigilante. He beats the **** out of people to prove a point. He strikes fear into criminals and even citizens, which is the virtues or motives of a terrorist.

 

[FunkMiller]

If you make the Waynes part of a corrupt system, you undercut a lot of Batman’s motivations, and influences. Can’t see Reeves taking that angle myself.

If Thomas and Martha aren’t good people, a lot of Bruce’s guilt at getting them killed is undermined. As are Bruce’s morals, which he gets from his parents - especially Thomas.

Nolan did it perfectly. I’m hoping Reeves just lets the Waynes lie in this film. Old ground, already covered exceptionally well.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

If you make the Waynes part of a corrupt system, you undercut a lot of Batman’s motivations, and influences. Can’t see Reeves taking that angle myself.

Bruce is his own person, he doesn't have to be totally defined by who his parents were as people. A more complicated relationship with the Wayne legacy strikes me as a valid, interesting take. Especially if the Waynes were people trying to do the right thing who still made painful, unpleasant compromises and Bruce can learn from their mistakes.

 

[FunkMiller]

Bruce is his own person, he doesn't have to be totally defined by who his parents were as people. A more complicated relationship with the Wayne legacy strikes me as a valid, interesting take. Especially if the Waynes were people trying to do the right thing who still made painful, unpleasant compromises and Bruce can learn from their mistakes.

Batman is literally built on his relationship with his parents. They, and their deaths, define him.

I don’t see a need to return again to the origin story. We know it. Let’s have something fresh.

The Waynes should be peripheral to this new story. I’ll be disappointed if they’re front and centre again, as will a lot of the audience, who have seen the same thing over and over.

 

[Boy Scout]

If you make the Waynes part of a corrupt system, you undercut a lot of Batman’s motivations, and influences. Can’t see Reeves taking that angle myself.

I don’t think so. I think it strengthens them. Done properly, I think you come out on the other end with a more mature version of the character who has a more balanced understanding of the city, his parents, crime and corruption, and what it is he’s fighting for.

If Thomas and Martha aren’t good people, a lot of Bruce’s guilt at getting them killed is undermined. As are Bruce’s morals, which he gets from his parents - especially Thomas.

I don’t think anyone wants them to not be good people. But that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have been flawed. They could have still fought for a cleaner and less corrupt Gotham while having to make compromises along the way. Compromises their son would never make, especially when he still viewed them through the lens of the 10-year-old who lost them.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Batman is literally built on his relationship with his parents. They, and their deaths, define him.

I don’t see a need to return again to the origin story. We know it. Let’s have something fresh.

The Waynes should be peripheral to this new story. I’ll be disappointed if they’re front and centre again, as will a lot of the audience, who have seen the same thing over and over.

Yeah and finding a new take on that is fundamentally interesting to me. You can still love your parents, be inspired by them and mourn their loss while acknowledging they weren't saints. Especially if you learn it when you're already a grown man.

I disagree, exploring the legacy of the Wayne family is not the same as focusing on his literal origins. The Waynes have either just been there to get shot or, in the case of the Nolan trilogy, a very traditional take focused almost exclusively on Thomas. Plenty to be mined, especially if you're exploring the history of Gotham.

Would also love it if they included the idea from Earth One that Martha was an Arkham. Super fond of there being all these old, powerful families in Gotham.

 

[BrollySupersj]

What did Reeves say at the panel that makes ya'll believe they are planning the COO? I haven't seen it.

 

[WatchProtect]

What did Reeves say at the panel that makes ya'll believe they are planning the COO? I haven't seen it.

He put a very big emphasis on deeply rooted crime and corruption in Gotham and how its more then meets the eye. Also some stuff in the trailer which seems way too much for coincidence imo

 

[shauner111]

If you make the Waynes part of a corrupt system, you undercut a lot of Batman’s motivations, and influences. Can’t see Reeves taking that angle myself.

If Thomas and Martha aren’t good people, a lot of Bruce’s guilt at getting them killed is undermined. As are Bruce’s morals, which he gets from his parents - especially Thomas.

Nolan did it perfectly. I’m hoping Reeves just lets the Waynes lie in this film. Old ground, already covered exceptionally well.

Disagree completely. Nolan showed a one sided “The Wayne’s were saints” depiction. Todd Phillips showed them as ******* politicians who treated people like crap. In this version, they could still have been loving parents but secretly tied to massive corruption from the inside out. Bruce only becomes aware of it now. And has to make a decision. What am i really fighting for? It’s never been done. Ground not covered. And I’m personally dying to see it.

 

[C Prometheus]

You could definitely be on to something. At the same time, an influence doesn’t mean it has to be a narrative one. The tone, genre and visual style of filmmaking could be the influence instead.

I agree completely; but there's not really much of anything about Dial M for Murder in particular that makes much sense for influencing a Batman film compared to a number of other classic Hitchcock movies. There aren't very many sets in the film, it's not exactly film noir and the style of filmmaking here isn't anything special among Hitchcock's other works.

Which led me to suspect that if there's any sort of remote influence going on, it's possibly either to do with the plot in some way or maybe the production design for some of the interior sets in Gotham City.

 

[Invader Joker]

I agree completely; but there's not really much of anything about Dial M for Murder in particular that makes much sense for influencing a Batman film compared to a number of other classic Hitchcock movies. There aren't very many sets in the film, it's not exactly film noir and the style of filmmaking here isn't anything special among Hitchcock's other works.

Which led me to suspect that if there's any sort of remote influence going on, it's possibly either to do with the plot in some way or maybe the production design for some of the interior sets in Gotham City.

I think that Dial M for Murder is a pretty good point of reference if you're looking on how to build a script that has a lot of crime scenes.

 

[BrollySupersj]

One line I'm focusing on is where Riddler tells Batman "you're part of this too". I feel that kinda points in the direction of some history with the Waynes and COO.

And of course Riddler figures out Batman's identity.

 

[CK_ALL_DAY]

My very first thought when watching the trailer was we're getting the Court and it almost makes too much sense to do. If that's the case and this movie focuses on the Riddler slowly exposing them to Batman, feeding him bits of information and hidden codes, and teasing his connection to them, I think it sets up a perfect start to a trilogy. What a way to showcase the detective side of Batman. Not only do you have him trying to decipher the riddles and clues left behind, while also trying to stop the Riddler's murders but also investigating the door Riddler just opened to the Court and the connection to his family. The climax of the film, Riddler revealing what the connection is with his parents. Sets up the Court for a sequel perfectly. Now you've got Bruce throwing all of his time and energy into investigating the Court and its history in Gotham and uncovering all the corruption and how deep it goes. While he's distracted at the beginning of the sequel investigating the Court, a new villain arises, Bats shifts to the immediate threat and that's the main story for the movie. Then come back in the 3rd to finish off the Court. But there's so many directions they could go.

 

[shauner111]

It’s also a fantastic way to build up the reveals of villains that a casual moviegoer know nothing about. By the time you reveal them in a physical sense, everyone is so invested. Instead of a usual “who’s this guy now?”.

 

[Blind Bat]

If they go the "Waynes were part of the system" angle I just hope it's done tastefully. If the Waynes are any part of this trilogy, don't make them bleeding heart crusaders and don't make them corrupt gangsters. I'd like a realistic, human take on it. Where they're decent people who did what they felt they had to to protect their family. That way, yes they may have made some awful compromises or looked the other way on some terrible things, but they aren't monsters. They still care about people.