The Flash The Flash and the Time Paradox

[The Incredible Hulk]

So based on the events of the Season 1 Finale, we're left with the following scenario.

1. In order to stop the Reverse Flash from killing everyone in the reactor, Eddie commits suicide by shooting himself in the chest.

2. Due to Eddie dying, the Reverse Flash is "erased" from existence and never comes to be.

3. If the Reverse Flash never exists, he can never go back in time.

4. If Reverse Flash never goes back in time, Eddie doesnt have to kill himself

5. Therefor by killing himself, Eddie doesn't die and by wiping Reverse Flash out of existence he would still continue to exist in some insane feedback loop?

5. *brain melts*


Did I miss anything?

I know this is being discussed somewhat in the main episode thread, but it probably deserves it's own conversation since it will impact the show in Season 2 and way beyond.

 

[mocomic]

Yes you did
Barry never becomes CSI guy to catch moms killer
Never goes to Starling city and meets Team Arrow
Star lab crew doesn't make the Mirakuru antidote
Slade Wilson not defeated
Roy's not even cured

Oh man my brain melted too

Barry don't mess with time. Wait RF did it when he told Grandpa he was meaningless .

Moral of the story honor thy ancestors.

 

[gugumugats]

Some other poster here (I don't remember who and I dont want to take credit) pointed out that changes only extend from the the relative "future" of an event, and that no retconning is made before that event (i.e. before Eddie shooting himself).

In other words, no changes will be made from before Eddie shoots himself and Thawne/Wells still existed in the past of the Season 1 timeline.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

Some other poster here (I don't remember who and I dont want to take credit) pointed out that changes only extend from the the relative "future" of an event, and that no retconning is made before that event (i.e. before Eddie shooting himself).

In other words, no changes will be made from before Eddie shoots himself and Thawne/Wells still existed in the past of the Season 1 timeline.

Except Thawne/Wells tied the future into the past by going back 15 years prior and changing events.

Had he just gone back to that moment in the reactor (logistical issues of it even existing aside) and Eddie died shortly thereafter I'd maybe perhaps buy that, but so many of the events in the show are set in motion by Thawne/Wells going back 15 years prior which is now erased.

Does Eddie dying now "reset the table" prior to what it was when RF went back in time originally, and now Barry doesnt become the Flash until he was originally supposed to, Eddie is still alive, and Eobard Thawne exists in the future again?

 

[gugumugats]

Except Thawne/Wells tied the future into the past by going back 15 years prior and changing events.

Had he just gone back to that moment in the reactor (logistical issues of it even existing aside) and Eddie died shortly thereafter I'd maybe perhaps buy that, but so many of the events in the show are set in motion by Thawne/Wells going back 15 years prior which is now erased.

Under the "changes only 'relatively' after the act" rule, the 15 years prior to Eddie getting shot remain untouched. In other words, there was a paradoxical Thawne/Wells that existed and will still exist in those past 15 years.

The only tie between future and past (for whatever reason) is that Thawne/Wells is still affected by Eddie's actions at that given moment only going forward. I think this is the spotty thing that makes it all a paradox. Otherwise, Eddy shooting himself would have no effect on Thawne/Wells and the multiple-timeline rule consistently holds.

I think one "proof" of the "only the future changes but no retcon" is Rogue Time. Flash imprisons the Weather Wizard in Rogue Time. That means no tsunami and no Barry traveling back. In other words, Flash's act of imprisoning the Weather Wizard doesn't fall apart on itself, because his time travel doesn't get "retconned."

The only way a "retcon" is possible is if you go back before/during an event and change it.

This is all speculation, and I'll still accept a full reset without Arrow somehow remaining lightly unaffected.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

I think one "proof" of the "only the future changes but no retcon" is Rogue Time. Flash imprisons the Weather Wizard in Rogue Time. That means no tsunami and no Barry traveling back. In other words, Flash's act of imprisoning the Weather Wizard doesn't fall apart on itself, because his time travel doesn't get "retconned."

The only way a "retcon" is possible is if you go back before/during an event and change it.

Fair points, and fun to discuss. I guess I just saw the events of 'Rogue Time" as just Barry going back and creating a slightly alternate timeline where he doesnt need to keep going back in the past as he pro-actively prevents the tsunami and doesnt have to speed run into the past again this time around.

However all of the events in the episode were "current" events that weren't dependent on something from the future causing them that Barry (or in the case of the Finale, Eddie) now eliminated from ever happening in the first place.

In the Finale the past was dependent on future events which now can't happen. In Rogue, everything was happening in real time. (if that makes any sense)

To picture it theoretically, Rogue Time would be more of a flat line, with an offshoot (at the point Barry went back to) for when Barry went back to stop the tsunami. Whereas the Finale events, were more of a loop with Barry's Mom's death, and Thawne going back in time and creating the Flash all happening at different parts of a loop, until Eddie dying sort of breaks the loop.

 

[coluanprime]

My rationale is this:
Only the future can be changed relative to the point in time you're in. Eddie killing himself destroyed Reverse-Flash because RF was from the future. Everything that had happened to Barry and his mother still happened, because that was in the past.

 

[The Incredible Hulk]

My rationale is this:
Only the future can be changed relative to the point in time you're in. Eddie killing himself destroyed Reverse-Flash because RF was from the future. Everything that had happened to Barry and his mother still happened, because that was in the past.

yes but even in the past, RF is still "from the future." So if he's wiped at one point in time, he should be wiped out all along the timeline, no?

Not saying you're right or wrong BTW, its an interesting take, just doing a bit of a logic exercise here.

 

[gugumugats]

Fair points, and fun to discuss. .

Agreed, reminds me of the days of Lost. I also appreciate that this is being kept friendly.

Here's a layout of the rule:

1) Flash season 1
2) Eddie shoots himself
3) Thawne/Wells implodes/ceases to exist (I think this is the rule's flaw)
4) Eddie and Thawne/Wells are both dead/non-existent in Season 2
'-1') A paradoxical Thawne/Wells still exists/existed in Flash season 1 because the relative past is unaffacted by Eddie's actions.

Again guys, I'm just speculating a rule here. For all I know they're not really following any "rules" and are utilizing time-travel to serve the story they want to tell.

I think this is also the other popular alternative:

1) Flash season 1
2) Eddie shoots himself
3) Thawne/Wells implodes/ceases to exist.
4) Singularity causes a reset somewhere/somewhen to resolve paradox.
5) Reset most likely occurs around Nora's (non?)murder. Flash season 1 "never happened."
6) Barry becomes Flash under different circumstances??
7) Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash is still in play??
8) Otherwise open-ended series of events.

 

[coluanprime]

yes but even in the past, RF is still "from the future." So if he's wiped at one point in time, he should be wiped out all along the timeline, no?

Not saying you're right or wrong BTW, its an interesting take, just doing a bit of a logic exercise here.

I was trying to say that even though he doesn't exist after Eddie's death, he still existed in the past so all of his action stay there.

 

[gugumugats]

Here's another mindtwister.

Wells/Thawne permitted nay persuaded Barry to change the past and save his mother. Why did Wells/Thawne allow this??

So ...

1) Season 1 Flash goes back to save his mom (lets now call him Flash!mamas boy)

2a) Mama's boy ceases to exist??
2b) Mama's boy returns through wormhole??

2b-3a) Mama's boy to return to an intact Season 1 timeline??
2b-3b) Does he return to a new timeline??? (That could derail Thawne/Wells' endgame??)


I hate this.

 

[dru-zod2501]

All this might be explained by what I thought in my other thread. Barry was always going to be the Flash regardless of the particle accelerator

 

[mocomic]

Everybody says the past won't reset per say
Eddies sacrifice, means Eobard never existed
By any logic, he whom never exists can't kill Barry's mother

I think it will reset like this
Barry will have 2 parents
Eddie will end up alive and Eobard eventually is born
Harrison Wells is alive. Not sure if car crash caused by Eobard, so his wife's fate uncertain.
Barry as Flash who knows?

Also I know this. Writers will have oodles of plot ideas to go with.

 

[TJByrum]

I know no one can provide actual insight into time travel, but I know a lot of you smarter folks theorize on it and come up with logical answers of what could be true; figure I could ask questions here since it's relevant to the Flash. I'll have more later, but I'll post them as I think of them.

First off let's just call the base timeline 'Timeline A'. This means there is no tampering with the space-time continuum or whatever. No one went back in time and changed anything, everything is going as it should.

Now, Timeline B would be the first 'spin-off'. This is the timeline we see in Season 1, where Eobard came back in time and killed Barry's mother.

1. When one of these characters travel back in time, what happens to their original self? For example, Eobard from Timeline A traveled back in time and was stuck in Timeline B for 15 or so years. So was Eobard missing from Timeline A for 15 years? Or was a split-version of him still existing there?

2. Let us assume Barry went back in time and did save his mother. Since I'm not really sure if this would have created another spin-off, or if it would have maintained Timeline A's integrity, I'm going to call it Timeline AB. So Barry saves his mother and creates Timeline AB. Okay, he goes back through the wormhole... what then? Did the people from Timeline B just 'phase' out of existence? Was it replaced/rewritten by Timeline AB? Perhaps Barry didn't go back to Timeline B, but instead went 15 ears into Timeline AB? In that case, wouldn't he just see the Timeline AB Barry Allen there? So he really would not even matter. Or would Timeline AB Barry Allen suddenly phase out of existence and the Timeline B Barry would take his place? In this case, what's the point... because Timeline B Barry would just 'phase in' at that moment, and he'd have no recollection of having a life with his real mom and dad... right?

 

[Spidey220987]

Sorry, messed up my edit (on my phone lol)

 

[Spidey220987]

I've posted a bunch of these on Facebook and in the forums lol, so I'll post what I've already said. Sorry if it seems repetitive.

Eobard killed her in the past, that event will be unchanged because Barry didn't stop it.

Eddie killed himself, so I assume all the Thawnes of the future have been wiped from existence. By all time travel movie logic lol, only an event in the past can affect the future.

He was marooned in the year 2000, making it plausible for his (Thawne's) actions to still have effect. As his ancestor was killed in the present day, only the future is altered - if any of that makes sense.

There are multiple timelines at play in the show.
1) The season 1 timeline (Nora Allen's death to present day)
2) The future (where Thawne/Reverse Flash exists and Red-Suit & White Logo Flash exists)
3) The alternate future (Where Barry saved his Mom).
4) The future without the Thawne bloodline (after Eddie's death)

You might think how I know there's an alternate future where Barry saved his Mom. Well, if you think about it, why did Future Flash signal to Barry to NOT save his Mom? Why else would he do it? Obviously when he saved her, he disrupted the timeline and events played out differently. So in a way, they've acknowledged "The Flashpoint Paradox" without going in to great detail.

There could also be a way for Thawne/RF to be resurrected in the show. Say in future seasons there is an event that they can't deal with and they need the help of Dr.Wells/Thawne. The night he killed Nora Allen is still in continuity, since he was stuck in the past. As the finale said, he had 1 minute & 52 seconds before the wormhole closed. It closed, trapping RF in that timeline. So that event will most definitely always be in play. What's to stop The Flash from returning to that night or pre-Eddie death timeline and taking Wells/RF with him?

That's how I think it'll play out. People said Eddie dies so RF can't exist to kill Nora. This creates what is known as a "Grandfather Paradox"

To explain, a GF paradox says if a Grandson was to go back in time and kill his grandad, he himself wouldn't exist. But if he doesn't exist, he can't kill his grandfather, meaning at some point in the future, he will still be born.

That's basically what would still happen to Reverse Flash lol.

If you think about it, if present day Wells/RF did get his speed, he could travel back in time to the night he killed Nora, meaning there would technically be 2 Reverse Flashes in one timeline.

It's why when Barry goes back in time, his future self will always be there. It's like BTTF part 2. Marty has to go back to 1955 AGAIN! When he goes there, the Marty from BTTF exists within that same period because he's already been to 1955, so that event still had to play out. Hence why I believe the murder of Nora Allen at the hands of The Reverse Flash WILL still happen.

 

[Spidey220987]

Also another reason I say this is because it still has to be a time loop. Like, has anyone ever seen Misfits (the UK series)? Don't wanna spoil it,

Spoiler

but Simon from the Future (AKA SuperHoodie) goes to the past then has his powers removed, all so he could make Alisha fall in love with him. Future Simon gets killed, then Alisha starts a relationship with present day Simon. But then she gets killed, so the Simon of the present has his powers removed and goes back in time...TO MAKE ALISHA FALL IN LOVE WITH HIM! It was even acknowledged in the show by a cast member that the events will play over and over again.

The way I see it is that those events still HAVE to play out (RF going back in time, killing Nora, getting marooned, etc). It has to because it's like "canon" for that timeline. Thawne only died after Eddie killed himself, because it's easy to deduce that he's the head of the Thawne bloodline. They both appear together within the show's timeline.

The only way for it to be undone, where Thawne can't kill Nora Allen, is for something to happen to one of Eddie's ancestors, e.g. death of one of his parents. They don't exist, Eddie doesn't exist. Eddie doesn't exist, Thawne will never exist.

That's how I see it anyway. I like nerd debates lol

 

[EobardThawne]

Very good question. Let's call a timeline as a story. If you are erasing something from the beginning of the book then the rest would have another meaning while the true meaning still exist. If you avoid it happen then you can try figuring something that doesn't change the true mening.

Spoiler

For example, how Barry managed to talk to his mother and nobody know it except his dying mother.

Even though the true meaning might be hard to achieve, there is always another book that explain what you actually have erased.

Spoiler

I have been stuck in the "past" that changed my future completely even though it still existed. The reason why it changed was because I wasn't supposed to let something happen. In order to get what I need, I simply have to travel to that time where the another me left to the past. I have been waiting so long to tell Barry about saving his mother but he was too clever not to change anything otherwise he would not have been able to come back, just like I did.

 

[king666]

I thought about it and I'm convinced we have two timelines, and they kinda exist in a paradoxical/cyclical way.

In one of them, Eobard didn't kill Nora Allen. Barry becomes The Flash only in 2020. Then Thawne goes back in time.
Eobard kills Nora and creates another timeline (the one we've been watching). His existence is erased in 2015. Meaning he does not kill Nora.
So we're back to the other timeline. Eobard didn't kill Nora Allen. Barry becomes The Flash only in 2020(...)

 

[Spider-Fan83]

do you think that there's a timeline where Eobard successfully killed Barry (instead of his mom) then went back to the time he came from and took over the city/maybe even the world (without Flash to stop him)

 

[Flashgeek1994]

One of the biggest questions that I've been wondering about is how Barry has seen his futureself more than once now and in the season finale the two versions met eye contact with the future one urging the current one not to save their mother.

This left me with the question "Do both Barry's still exist? The future Barry only existed because his mother lived so theoretically the future allen shouldn't exist because of the change in the timeline. What I don't get is how the future Allen new that Thawne was going to kill his mother and that he knew why his past self was there to save her.

So does the future Allen still exist? We already saw that Eobard Thawne was eliminated from existence when Eddie died so does that mean that the future Barry Allen also doesn't exist? Maybe mow the "spin off" timeline is the main timeline now but with the introduction of RIP hunter in Legends of Tomorrow complicates things even further. It does make you think and ponder what the end game is.

 

[haephestus]

do you think that there's a timeline where Eobard successfully killed Barry (instead of his mom) then went back to the time he came from and took over the city/maybe even the world (without Flash to stop him)

I don't think Barry Allen was alive in Eobard's "present day". It's possible that a legacy speedster hero was alive and using "The Flash" name, but I don't think it would have been Barry Allen (unless Barry Allen travelled to his future, which would be Eobard's present day, and got "stuck" there).

And I'm not sure Eobard had any interest in conquering the world. That didn't seem to be his motivation for originally wanting to kill Barry and it didn't seem to be his motivation for so despertately wanting to return to his own time.

 

[Herolee10]

You know, the sad thing is that unless proven otherwise, the PRIME Flash (the version of Barry that came from the "original" timeline, who we saw saving young Barry in the past) pretty much died/ceased to exist.

I think in a way, the season finale pretty much confirmed it without actually saying it out loud that Prime Flash ceased to exist the moment Thawne killed his mom. He was probably on his way back to the house when he disappeared midway as his mom died, similar to how Thawne eventually disappeared when Eddie died.

 

[shiznoroe88]

Spoiler Alert! The Flash​ season finale.

I'm just trying to understand the consequences of Eddy killing himself so that Reverse Flash never exists.

Without Reverse Flash, the entire timeline(timeline B) created by Barry's mom dying would be erased too. Which would reset everything back to timeline(A) where Barry's mom dies because Eddy would now be alive in the original timeline(A). Causing both the Reverse Flash and Flash to exist and fight, which leads to the timeline(B) created by Barry's mom dying.

This ending just leads to a time paradox loop that would keep recreating itself.

Someone please come up with an explanation that disproves my reasoning?

 

[TJByrum]

It is a paradox, and a lot of times a paradox just can't be solved. I don't really think a paradox can be explained or solved, just described.

There's just so much stuff to consider about time traveling it really warps your mind and makes it bend in on itself.

I think every timeline has its own native inhabitants. When you go back in time and change something the timeline splits. You always end up going back to your own native timeline, while the new timeline creates its own set of native inhabitants.

In that case, Timeline B Barry might would have saved his mom, which gives permission for Timeline A to still exist, allowing PRIME Barry to exist. The Timeline B Barry, however, would have just went back to Timeline B though, right? Unless the continuum just wipes his mind/memory of everything that ever happened after that night and send him to Timeline A. But then there'd be two Barrys there: the Prime Barry, and Timeline B Barry. Unless the continuum forces them to merge into a single entity without them knowing, so then Barry would have the memory of Timeline A and B.

We also gotta consider Timeline C, which was created when Barry traveled back in time and fixed the whole 'tsunami' situation. So technically, Barry is in the third spin off, not the second like I thought. So where is Barry at in that timeline? Did he just disappear? And what about when he went back in time, where did the Barry from that time go?