Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

[roach]

While I didn't like the twist I didnt hate it...for me it was more of Marvel's poor handling of villains...they either have poor to no reasons for being bad or a really complicated plan that relies on happenstance and coincidence. Sure there is Loki but he's the trickster god...we let him get away with being bad...however if you think about his plan in Avengers it's really complicated for no other reason than to be complicated.
What was done with Mandarin IMO was just par for the course.

 

[cherokeesam]

Spoiler

Kingsley's voice, mannerisms, dialogue, look...everything about him blew away the typical evil businessman villain that Pierce was in this film.

Spoiler

How is Killian a "typical evil businessman?" He is a genius scientist who basically gained superpowers when he hijacked Hansen's research and created an army of super-powered mercenaries. He doesn't even run a business, but a think tank devoted to using Extremis as a cure for wounded veterans.

 

[Rocanrol]

Replace Killian with Stane and Hammer, superpower with superarmor and hansen with stark and you have the plot of IM1 and IM2.

 

[mkilban2]

I'm going to post this is a few forums to try and get an answer, but does anyone know what the context of the Dowton Abbey scene is that is on[BLACKOUT] at the Hospital when Happy is in there?[/BLACKOUT] Because the one writer said that it is important to the future, and I've never watched the show myself so I don't know the characters of the scene. Anyone help with that?

 

[ciscostudent561]

I posted this in another thread, but this pretty much sums up my thoughts:

Spoiler

The REAL Mandarin, Killian, was a great man of science, who showed desire to control the world's greatest powers, hence the line 'I'll have the two biggest weapons in each hand and own the War On Terror'(or something like that). We see at the beginning of the film he was a nobody, but through his knowledge (and probably his powers), he built himself up. He showed great hand-to-hand combat talents. Notice the other Extremis soldiers were not nearly as good at hand to hand combat, so he must have some training.
Now the COMIC Mandarin, was born in a rich family who spent all their wealth teaching him science and training him in the martial arts. By the time he was an adult, he was dirt poor, but extremely brilliant, like Killian at the beginning of Iron Man 3. Also like Killian, The Mandarin's strength is his knowledge of SCIENCE. This is what enabled him to study Axon-Karr and tap into the powers of the ten rings. He used his powers and knowledge to build himself up and desired world domination, often using Countries own weapons against them, like Killian's plan with Extremis, Iron Patriot and Iron Man. The Mandarin also is extremely talented in martial arts and hand-to-hand combat.

Killian as The Mandarin is very much a Nolan villain interpretation. Similar to how Joker isn't permawhite and Bane isn't a venom-out wrestler, Killian isn't a Chinese ruler with powerful rings. However, similar to how Ledger's Joker and Hardy's Bane represent all the major aspects of the characters themselves, Killian has just about everything from a characterization stand point that The Mandarin has and is. If Killian returned in a sequel with 10 Rings, he'd be a damn near perfect live adaption interpretation of the character.
The twist wasn't just a plot twist, and it wouldn't work for every villain. It was used with The Mandarin for a reason and it was to acknowledge the character's past in the comics and to critique the original, racist stereotype that the original character was. IM3 showed us the VISUAL aspects of The Mandarin character and turned it into a joke because thats what it is, a racist, stupid joke of a character. However, the character himself, which is a great villain, they showed respect to and made him the primary villain with Killian.

Also, this COMIC BOOK Mandarin looks almost exactly like Mandarin/Killian in the climax of Iron Man 3:

True that!!!!!!!

 

[weezerspider]

Typically, when an artform like music, a novel, or in this case a film is this polarizing, then said piece is often looked back upon as a classic. Polarizing for art is a great thing. it means chances were taken. It means it wasn't just phoned in. Iron Man 3 was a solid flick, but this shows that Marvel Studios is willing to take chances, which is great, because their first 5 films did not take any chances.

 

[cherokeesam]

I'm going to post this is a few forums to try and get an answer, but does anyone know what the context of the Dowton Abbey scene is that is on[BLACKOUT] at the Hospital when Happy is in there?[/BLACKOUT] Because the one writer said that it is important to the future, and I've never watched the show myself so I don't know the characters of the scene. Anyone help with that?

I don't know a thing about Downton Abbey, but what I've read on several blogs and tweets and comments is that

Spoiler

the scene(s) shown involve a chauffeur who professes his love for a rich and powerful woman. Add to that the fact that in the comics, Happy Hogan marries Pepper Potts, and that might be where they're leading in the future. Or at least, Favs hopes.

Alternative: maybe one or both of the actors shown has been cast for an MCU movie....Allen Leech and Jessica Brown Findlay.

 

[cherokeesam]

True that!!!!!!!

And great post by weezerspider. Very accurate reading of Killian there.

 

[BenKenobi]

People need to keep in mind the Mandarin is a touchy character, given how volatile China can be (the banned google for a period of time!?) and how large of a market they are, it's understandable why he was changed.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

weezerspider, indeed a great interpretation...

Still brings forth my major issues with Mandillian. He has little to no visual appeal, costume, stature, etc. His voice is completely forgettable. Pearce isn't even as good of an actor as Kingsley.

Now, Trev-mandarin on the other hand... his entire character would have been much less forgettable. And still will go down as the most memorable villain in the film for me. Hows that for backasswards?

 

[roach]

while the Mandarin is a touchy character the way the portrayed him in the movie until the twist seemed like a the best way to do the character without being racist.

Bin Laden type villain is at least different than rich guy gone bad like we had in the past two movies

 

[weezerspider]

And great post by weezerspider. Very accurate reading of Killian there.

Thanks

True that!!!!!!!

Thanks

People need to keep in mind the Mandarin is a touchy character, given how volatile China can be (the banned google for a period of time!?) and how large of a market they are, it's understandable why he was changed.

This has been over-looked amongst all of this. Since day 1, Favs said when working on IM1 they canned the Mandarin idea early on because they couldn't figure out how best to interpret him on the big screen due to his, questionable roots.

weezerspider, indeed a great interpretation...

Still brings forth my major issues with Mandillian. He has little to no visual appeal, costume, stature, etc. His voice is completely forgettable. Pearce isn't even as good of an actor as Kingsley.

Now, Trev-mandarin on the other hand... would have been much less forgettable. And still will go down as the most memorable villain in the film for me. Hows that for backasswards?

But doesn't this buy into the whole point of the fake Mandarin? We like 'faces' for our villains. That was the whole commentary from the film, so it made since that the actual villain was basically a normal dude appearance wise. Its an interesting commentary in a blockbuster film, especially during all the 'home-grown' terrorist talk recently.

 

[cherokeesam]

weezerspider, indeed a great interpretation...

Still brings forth my major issues with Mandillian. He has little to no visual appeal, costume, stature, etc. His voice is completely forgettable. Pearce isn't even as good of an actor as Kingsley.

Now, Trev-mandarin on the other hand... his entire character would have been much less forgettable. And still will go down as the most memorable villain in the film for me. Hows that for backasswards?

But that's the whole point of the twist. Misdirection. Get Tony Stark and Iron Patriot and the whole US of A chasing after a phantom boogeyman so that Killian, an anonymous person, can continue doing his work anonymously.

If Aldrich Killian had been a more visible presence than Trevor Slattery, the ruse never would have worked.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I get that. Never haven't gotten that. But the reason great villains withstand the test of time is not exclusively because of what they do behind the scenes. But the way they look, dress, act, behave on screen. Both Ledger and Nicholson's Joker, Hardy's Bane, Hiddleston's Loki, Weaving's Red Skull, Molina's Doc Ock, etc. and so forth.

That is why I (personally) believe that Killian won't be the one of the greats. Probably not even the greatest this year (when his competition is Zod and Malekith/Kurse not to mention John Harrison in Star Trek and Smaug)

I do feel like he will fall by the wayside... no offense to anyone who feels differently.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

If Aldrich Killian had been a more visible presence than Trevor Slattery, the ruse never would have worked.

And also, I'll admit. The ruse definitely worked. I did a great job avoiding spoilers this time around and it paid off.... I guess. :P

 

[roach]

And also, I'll admit. The ruse definitely worked. I did a great job avoiding spoilers this time around and it paid off.... I guess. :P

IMO it would have worked more if they werent already tipping their hand that Killian was bad

 

[cherokeesam]

IMO it would have worked more if they werent already tipping their hand that Killian was bad

Agreed.
And truth be told, the argument can be made that Killian wasn't ever *intrinsically* bad. His motives were actually pure: he wanted to use Extremis to help wounded veterans recover lost limbs and return to normal lives. It's just that some of them kept....exploding. That was something of a recurrent theme in the movie --- that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

 

[weezerspider]

I get that. Never haven't gotten that. But the reason great villains withstand the test of time is not exclusively because of what they do behind the scenes. But the way they look, dress, act, behave on screen. Both Ledger and Nicholson's Joker, Hardy's Bane, Hiddleston's Loki, Weaving's Red Skull, Molina's Doc Ock, etc. and so forth.

That is why I (personally) believe that Killian won't be the one of the greats. Probably not even the greatest this year (when his competition is Zod and Malekith/Kurse not to mention John Harrison in Star Trek and Smaug)

I do feel like he will fall by the wayside... no offense to anyone who feels differently.

I get that and I agree the villain himself won't be as rememberable, but this is all further proof into what the film itself was exploring. We are obsessed with our 'faces of evil' being larger than life characters. There are a lot of decent films that are elevated to good/great because of a great villain and there are great movies that are brought down a peg by mediocre villains. In real life, we give evil a face. Osama may have more power than the serial killer next door, but if the serial killer next door, who looks just like John Wayne, had Osama's power he'd be just as destructive. Yet, we have to give evil a larger than life face, despite the fact that plenty of time evil isn't charismatic or larger than life or any different then us. The film wanted to explore this and , while I think they could have explored it better, I think the twist works great for this theme, though, like you said, it made the film's actual villain less interesting, proving its own point.

 

[danoyse]

I'm going to post this is a few forums to try and get an answer, but does anyone know what the context of the Dowton Abbey scene is that is on[BLACKOUT] at the Hospital when Happy is in there?[/BLACKOUT] Because the one writer said that it is important to the future, and I've never watched the show myself so I don't know the characters of the scene. Anyone help with that?

I don't know a thing about Downton Abbey, but what I've read on several blogs and tweets and comments is that

Spoiler

the scene(s) shown involve a chauffeur who professes his love for a rich and powerful woman. Add to that the fact that in the comics, Happy Hogan marries Pepper Potts, and that might be where they're leading in the future. Or at least, Favs hopes.

Alternative: maybe one or both of the actors shown has been cast for an MCU movie....Allen Leech and Jessica Brown Findlay.

I'm a big Downton Abbey fan, and that's pretty much what's going on. Branson the chauffeur and Lady Sybil fall for each other and get married. Sybil was the most progressive of the Grantham sisters (she became a nurse during WWI and was into the whole women's rights thing), so marrying outside her class, not to mention her religion, was a big deal.

Of course, [blackout]Sybil also died in childbirth this past season,[/blackout] but hopefully it doesn't mean that.

 

[roach]

I get that and I agree the villain himself won't be as rememberable, but this is all further proof into what the film itself was exploring. We are obsessed with our 'faces of evil' being larger than life characters. There are a lot of decent films that are elevated to good/great because of a great villain and there are great movies that are brought down a peg by mediocre villains. In real life, we give evil a face. Osama may have more power than the serial killer next door, but if the serial killer next door, who looks just like John Wayne, had Osama's power he'd be just as destructive. Yet, we have to give evil a larger than life face, despite the fact that plenty of time evil isn't charismatic or larger than life or any different then us. The film wanted to explore this and , while I think they could have explored it better, I think the twist works great for this theme, though, like you said, it made the film's actual villain less interesting, proving its own point.

but i dont think they proved this...had they not tipped us off that Killian was evil so early on it would have been more powerful.

 

[DACrowe]

Then why does "everyone," including you, fail to acknowledge that?

People keep complaining about "The Mandarin --- Ben Kingsley." He's *not* the freakin' Mandarin. GUY PEARCE is The Mandarin. And he is everything a supervillain should be. And far, far from being a joke.

It's not hard to figure out at all, people. This is Batman Begins, all over again....deconstructed.

Maybe that's why certain posters hate it so much....because it makes the "Ra's al-Ghul Twist" in BB look lame.

Ha. As someone who liked IM3 and thinks the twist is great, I can guarantee you that the "lame" BB will be far better remembered in a few years than IM3. Probably a few months.

 

[The Dark Defender]

But doesn't this buy into the whole point of the fake Mandarin? We like 'faces' for our villains. That was the whole commentary from the film, so it made since that the actual villain was basically a normal dude appearance wise. Its an interesting commentary in a blockbuster film, especially during all the 'home-grown' terrorist talk recently.

I don't want to turn this into a huge political debate so I won't get into why, but I find that to be a pretty bs attempt at a social commentary if it was one.

 

[Brain Damage]

I liked it more than Talia.

 

[Spideysays]

Please read my post where I explain the reason why I (and I see others) were disappointed about this thing:

bravo sir! BRAVO!!!

 

[Shazam]

It was okay in my eyes, I would have liked to see The Mandarin of the comics, and in a way I did in this movie, but I understand why they went with the twist, and honestly, the Mandarin we got at the very end was great, so I wasnt thrilled by it, but I didnt mind it either, in the movie, it works.

I totally enjoyed the movie! I can understand the twist with the Mandarin.....If they did him in the way he's suppose to be done, you know there would be Asian groups screamin' racism....ala stereotypical Fu Manchu villain...blah blah blah... This society is too PC to even show Arabic terrorists on screen these days.

Guy Pierce more than made up for what the Mandarin could have been,, in my opinion. He was off the hook....4 out of 5 for me.