Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

[Destructus86]

Another point that doesn't sit well with me regarding killian as Mandarin is the lack of power. Killan was more Molten Man with dragon tats than The Mandarin who'd uses ten rings to attack Iron Man ten different ways.

And to me...the rings concept was much more lame.

 

[StreetWarrior]

I had this question in my head for the last couple of days now, and I've been really hesitant to bring it up here because I don't want to sound insulting towards the detractors. I apologize in advance if this question is offensive, but I felt I needed to voice it: [blackout]If the script remained exactly as it is now, but Killian were played by an Asian actor, would there be nearly as many people struggling to call him the Mandarin? Nothing about his motives would change, just the race of the actor.[/blackout]

Again, I apologize if that was kind of a sore subject, because I certainly am not trying to demean anyone speaking against the twist, since I totally understand where you're coming from.

Despite being someone who wanted to walk out of the theater in anger at the Mandarin "reveal", your post makes me change my perspective a little. Truthfully, if Killian had been Asian I might not have been as angry - and yes, that is a little shallow. I'll always be disapointed that we never got ten rings or a global threat from the far east but the respect given to Killian's (basically made up) character would have lessened my disappointment. I think wht makes this so hard to swallow by MANY fans is that Killian did not feel like the Mandarin. Some personality elements could be considered similar but in the end, we got jst another Obadiah Stane or Justin Hammer but this time with a few powers. The Mandarin could have been different - instead it's just more of the same. The armor may have been gone this time but the villain undereath was the same.

And those saying there are no iconic storylines involving the Mandarin are extremely ignorant of the source material... two of the largest most important Iron Man stories in the past decade involved the Mandarin (13+ issues in "Director of Shield" (2006-2007) and 15+ issues in "Invincible Iron Man" (2011-2012)). It's not even opinion to state that the Mandarin is Tony's arch nemesis. He may not have always been treated with respect but there have been SEVERAL iconc stories that have made the Mandarin worthy of much greater respect.

While a good amount of my anger with Black has subsided given some further consideration of the fact that Killian repesents some of the comic Mandarin's traits but it still feels like a wasted opportunity, unneccessary mockery from the studios, and a disappointment that I'm still depressed about.

 

[StreetWarrior]

And to me...the rings concept was much more lame.

Later story arcs involving the Mandarin had the rings being surgically grafted into his spine. Removes the "ring" imagery while still granting immense power and allowing for a "magic" vs. science theme.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever read any Iron Man arcs with the Mandarin? I'm not trying to be insulting but it seems that most people's take on the character was built by the director/producer's unhidden disdain for the character because of "dated concepts/racism". I feel that if China had not been financing this film, the studio would have felt differently.

Aliens in New York and Thor are okay but alien power rings (again, just a conduit) are too unrealistic? They grant the same power's as Extremis...

 

[scifiwolf]

I really wouldn't have had a problem if Killian had accepted more the title of "Mandarin." It felt more like he called himself that in a way to say that there never was a Mandarin, but he could be called that for all intents and purposes. This is something where the Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul twist gets it right, and why it works in Begins.

If Killian had been revealed to have been Mandarin, and in charge of The Ten Rings, plotting behind-the-scenes against Tony the whole time, it further adds to his character. I felt he was already formidable enough (despite holes in his character), but this would have just made him even more so. It also would've really helped tie all the movies together in a very cohesive manner.

 

[Tony Stark]

I really wouldn't have had a problem if Killian had accepted more the title of "Mandarin." It felt more like he called himself that in a way to say that there never was a Mandarin, but he could be called that for all intents and purposes. This is something where the Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul twist gets it right, and why it works in Begins.

If Killian had been revealed to have been Mandarin, and in charge of The Ten Rings, plotting behind-the-scenes against Tony the whole time, it further adds to his character. I felt he was already formidable enough (despite holes in his character), but this would have just made him even more so. It also would've really helped tie all the movies together in a very cohesive manner.

There's no need to tie them in, and there still would be plot holes. The 10 rings didn't want to kill Tony, they only wanted his weapons. They said to Stane "you asked us to kill a prince". Stane wanted him dead, because he assumed he wasn't useful anymore and he wanted him out of the way so he would be in complete control of Stark Industries.

The 10 rings only wanted the Jericho missile, Stane asked them to execute Tony in exchange for the Jericho.

Killian was just behind the scenes taking advantage of the situation. He had Extremis, he had AIM, and he had Maya Hansen, he didn't need to back Stane.

 

[Dagenspear]

The way Kingsley was "treated" in the movie was the whole point of the plot, and the central theme of the film.

You guys wanted Iron Man to have an archnemesis on film. IM3 *gave* you an archnemesis on film. TWO of them. And then proceeded to deconstruct entirely the notion that "a hero is only as good as his villain."

In the end analysis, IM3 proves that a hero doesn't need a villain to be a hero. That's part of deconstructing the myth. Iron Man, Tony Stark, is a hero because of what he *does,* not because of who he *fights.*

And that is where you haters continue to fail, young padawans.

Except that's just not true. Entertainment-wise or narrative-wise. Why does Tony build the mini-arc and the suit, AND come to the conclusion that building weapons is wrong? Oh, that's right, his Villain puts out a hit on him! Without his villain, Tony never would've overcome his PTSD, he would've spiraled down into a pattern of angry self-destructive alcoholism, his relationship with Pepper would've crumbled due to his mood swings and inevitable destruction of public property, causing his further detatchment from society and possibly reality where he shuns the Avengers and spends the rest his days building suits with his only food being the olives in his martinis and his only friend being his apparently omnipresent (unless the plot says so) AI, waiting for the eventual attack, though probably dying of liver failure before Thanos even gets around to it. Nobody cares about the failed theme or the political commentary or whatever. I only care about the fact that I was led to believe that I was finally getting a villain who had a motivation that for once didn't essentially amount to: Tony Stark is a dick. I know I'm not the only one who was looking forward to knowing why he was doing this, what was the point, what were these attacks about, only to be told to just blow off everything I'd spent the last hour and half or so getting invested in and the reason I was interested in the villain, and just accept back all the things I'd already grown tired of and was happy to be rid of.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

I had this question in my head for the last couple of days now, and I've been really hesitant to bring it up here because I don't want to sound insulting towards the detractors. I apologize in advance if this question is offensive, but I felt I needed to voice it: [blackout]If the script remained exactly as it is now, but Killian were played by an Asian actor, would there be nearly as many people struggling to call him the Mandarin? Nothing about his motives would change, just the race of the actor.[/blackout]

Again, I apologize if that was kind of a sore subject, because I certainly am not trying to demean anyone speaking against the twist, since I totally understand where you're coming from.

If he was still this "oh Tony Stark stood me up on a roof, and I have a crush on Pepper Potts" evil industrialist Edward Nigma knockoff? Then Yes.We had already accepted a non-Asian in the role in Kingsley.

The Mandarin is a meglomaniacal warlord his aspirations and desires should extend beyond "this rich guy and his girlfriend was a jerk to me a bunch of years ago" and honestly 'controlling the war on terror' in some kind of a PMC scam or whatever it was he was doing feels honestly kind of small time for the Mandarin.

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

Mandarin *was* very different from all the villains of the previous IM movies. He is not "a guy in armor," he is not a rich corrupted businessman, he is not out for revenge.

Spoiler

He is a brilliant scientist, like Tony. He's trying to make the world a better place, like Tony. His technology is both his blessing and his curse, like Tony. In many ways, they're two sides of the same coin; it's just that Killian turns to the dark side, and his smarter-than-you arrogance develops into full-blown megalomania.

He kind of was out for revenge. That's why they showed the stuff at the beginning. It wasn't his sole purpose, but he did want some revenge.

I'm glad they went down the route of different, being that the villain WASNT a guy in a similar suit. However, I would've gone ahead and done Mandarin with the alien tech rings... The big hold up before was that they wanted to keep Iron Man grounded and stay away from the alien stuff. Well, you opened that can in Avengers. You showed alien tech can work in MCU. Go with it. Don't take Iron Man's most well-known villain and turn him into a fake.

I would've had something like Mandarin runs the Ten Rings, hires AIM to create Extremis so he can have a small group of super soldier terrorists. Killian takes it as well, becomes what he was in the film, just be the side villain. Tony would have a whole new set of problems he's never experienced... He would have to learn something new to defeat an alien tech he doesn't understand. Challenge his mind as well as his body. Iron Man has an epic battle with Mandarin while Iron Patriot and maybe the rest of his armors controlled by JARVIS as they were here fighting the soldier and Killian.

I haven't thought out the details, but I think it could've worked.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I can't speak for everyone here, But for me personally your assent of The Mandarin is so far from the truth that it's not even funny. Mandarin vs. Iron Man is a clash of mysticism vs. science and technology . In the comics Mandarin is known for being a descent of the great Genghis Khan, he's also just as brilliant as Stark. Mandarin has been the most effective thorn in Stark's life over the years in the comics.

He's been featured in three various incarnations of animation each time depicted as Iron Man's primary arch-Nemesis.

And this proves The Mandarin's oh so popular status as one of the greatest and most memorable villains in comics how exactly? I'm not disputing what makes him an interesting villain, I'm looking at it from an objective point of view. Even then, just how many share your view on him? Aside from people who read Iron Man and even back before even he was famous, whem was Mandarin considered this iconic villain other than Tony's arch nemesis? And to that extent, how has that reached him to the point of being this so called iconic villain throughout comics?

 

[DigificWriter]

I haven't seen the movie yet, but, based on what I've seen talked about concerning the movie and the way they approached the Mandarin character, Killian basically represents Senator/Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious, while Kingsley's Mandarin/Trevor Slattery represents the various 'front men' (i.e. Nute Gunray, Count Dooku, etc.) that Palpatine used to orchestrate his master plan.

 

[spider-neil]

This is something where the Ducard/Ra's Al Ghul twist gets it right, and why it works in Begins.

That's a matter of opinion if you ask me. I was much less engaged in BB when 'Ra's' appears in the 3rd act 3 with the reveal, I was like, 'so?'.
I think these type of bait and switches are such a waste of time, I would rather be simply presented with the bad guy. The only time it' ever worked for me is in Usual Suspects and at a stretch the Emperor who was pull Vader's strings. Other than the two examples I gave (for me) it always comes across at a cheap gimmick like tacked on plot twists.

My top 10 movie villains of all time and my top 5 comic book movie villains of all time where nothing more then what they were presented as, for the better.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

And this proves The Mandarin's oh so popular status as one of the greatest and most memorable villains in comics how exactly? I'm not disputing what makes him an interesting villain, I'm looking at it from an objective point of view. Even then, just how many share your view on him? Aside from people who read Iron Man and even back before even he was famous, whem was Mandarin considered this iconic villain other than Tony's arch nemesis? And to that extent, how has that reached him to the point of being iconic throughout comics?

Doctor Jones! Long time no see! I'd love to hear your thoughts on Iron Man 3.

 

[StreetWarrior]

And this proves The Mandarin's oh so popular status as one of the greatest and most memorable villains in comics how exactly? I'm not disputing what makes him an interesting villain, I'm looking at it from an objective point of view. Even then, just how many share your view on him? Aside from people who read Iron Man and even back before even he was famous, whem was Mandarin considered this iconic villain other than Tony's arch nemesis? And to that extent, how has that reached him to the point of being iconic throughout comics?

Do you work for Marvel Studios or Disney? Why are you arguing so hard against the Mandarin being iconic/Tony's archnemesis? What proof do you need and have you ever read Iron Man and how long? If you don't read the comics you cannot claim to know who is iconic and who isn't. JUst because you've never heard of him means absolutely nothing. I could not tell you who the villains are in the next Superman movie because I don't care about Superman at all. It doesn't mean that they aren't important/respectable/"iconic".

From Wikipedia (sections bolded for emphasis):

The Mandarin is a fictionalcharacter, a supervillain who appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. He is the archenemy of Iron Man.[1][2][3]
The character was created by Stan Lee and designed by Don Heck, first appearing in Tales of Suspense #50 (February 1964). The character is described as being born in China before the Communist revolution, to a wealthy Chinese father and an English aristocratic mother, both of whom died when he was very young. He is characterised as a megalomaniac, attempting to conquer the world on several occasions, yet also possessing a strong sense of honor.
The Mandarin is portrayed as a genius scientist and a superhumanly skilled martial artist. However, his primary sources of power are ten power rings that he adapted from the alien technology of a crashed space ship. Each ring has a different power and is worn on a specific finger.
In other media, the Mandarin has been shown in several forms of animation and computer games. He serves as the main antagonist in the 2013 film Iron Man 3, played by Guy Pearce while the idealized image of the character was played by Sir Ben Kingsley.[4] His presence was implied in the 2008 film Iron Man through the name of the terrorist group known as "The Ten Rings". In 2009, Mandarin was ranked as IGN's 81st Greatest Comic Book Villain of All Time.[5]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(comics)

 

[RoboAmish]

Two days later... and I'm still split on it. I thought it was a, um, interesting direction to go in and threw up a lot of provocative ideas (even if those ideas and the way they were presented weren't exactly what I'd call subtle) but it was still kinda dumb and robbed the film of a unique threat replacing him with a much less interesting, generic baddie. It also affected the film's dramatic tension and threw the pace off a bit, and took me out of the film for a good ten minutes.

So, I'm still leaning slightly towards disliking it and think it would have been a stronger film if it had given us a more traditional Mandarin. It lessened the film more than any of the interesting ideas the twist presented strengthened it. Still, it didn't ruin the film for me and I still really, really liked it.

 

[signifyingmnky]

He kind of was out for revenge. That's why they showed the stuff at the beginning. It wasn't his sole purpose, but he did want some revenge.

I'm glad they went down the route of different, being that the villain WASNT a guy in a similar suit. However, I would've gone ahead and done Mandarin with the alien tech rings... The big hold up before was that they wanted to keep Iron Man grounded and stay away from the alien stuff. Well, you opened that can in Avengers. You showed alien tech can work in MCU. Go with it. Don't take Iron Man's most well-known villain and turn him into a fake.

I would've had something like Mandarin runs the Ten Rings, hires AIM to create Extremis so he can have a small group of super soldier terrorists. Killian takes it as well, becomes what he was in the film, just be the side villain. Tony would have a whole new set of problems he's never experienced... He would have to learn something new to defeat an alien tech he doesn't understand. Challenge his mind as well as his body. Iron Man has an epic battle with Mandarin while Iron Patriot and maybe the rest of his armors controlled by JARVIS as they were here fighting the soldier and Killian.

I haven't thought out the details, but I think it could've worked.

The Mandarin wasn't a fake, though, he was Killian. And I don't know how you do the ten rings without the necessary build up of discovering the alien tech, figuring what the rings do, and then building a believable motivation for starting a crisis that doesn't requires Tony's involvement, but not the entire Avengers team. Don't forget the "son of aristocracy trained to be a super scientist whose loses his wealth" backstory. There's about an hour of characterization necessary to build an attachment to all that, and unless you're going to make The Mandarin an Avengers level threat, it's unnecessary.

I'm not saying you can't do a "traditional", Mandarin, or even that the way Shane Black presented him is the only way that he can be done, but IMO, the traditional Mandarin, with the power rings, in this universe(MCU) would be an Avengers level threat, where as protraying him as a super scientist in his own right, with enough intelligence to hijack the war on terror and backdoor his way into the White House, complete with a personal reason to target Tony specifically just makes sense. Comics and film are two different mediums. You can take a whole 12 issues to build a story arc in print, on the screen you have about 2 hours, 3, if you're lucky. Using the Extremis story, and Aldrich Killian (who barely had two lines in it) as a vessel for the Mandarin character, fits everything you need into about 2 hours.

 

[jonathancrane]

IGN does not have much credibility; the aforementioned list is arranged without reason (such as a low-tier character as Captain Cold at # 27. Really?)

 

[DN91]

Do you work for Marvel Studios or Disney? Why are you arguing so hard against the Mandarin being iconic/Tony's archnemesis? What proof do you need and have you ever read Iron Man and how long? If you don't read the comics you cannot claim to know who is iconic and who isn't. JUst because you've never heard of him means absolutely nothing. I could not tell you who the villains are in the next Superman movie because I don't care about Superman at all. It doesn't mean that they aren't important/respectable/"iconic".

From Wikipedia (sections bolded for emphasis):

The Mandarin is a fictionalcharacter, a supervillain who appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. He is the archenemy of Iron Man.[1][2][3]
The character was created by Stan Lee and designed by Don Heck, first appearing in Tales of Suspense #50 (February 1964). The character is described as being born in China before the Communist revolution, to a wealthy Chinese father and an English aristocratic mother, both of whom died when he was very young. He is characterised as a megalomaniac, attempting to conquer the world on several occasions, yet also possessing a strong sense of honor.
The Mandarin is portrayed as a genius scientist and a superhumanly skilled martial artist. However, his primary sources of power are ten power rings that he adapted from the alien technology of a crashed space ship. Each ring has a different power and is worn on a specific finger.
In other media, the Mandarin has been shown in several forms of animation and computer games. He serves as the main antagonist in the 2013 film Iron Man 3, played by Guy Pearce while the idealized image of the character was played by Sir Ben Kingsley.[4] His presence was implied in the 2008 film Iron Man through the name of the terrorist group known as "The Ten Rings". In 2009, Mandarin was ranked as IGN's 81st Greatest Comic Book Villain of All Time.[5]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(comics)

Not bolded: The "he was played in Iron Man 3 by Guy Pearce, while the 'idealized image' of the character was played by Sir Ben Kingsley."

 

[WarrenPeace2012]

I really don't see why people who didn't like the movie are getting heat. I didn't like it. Plain and simple. Why bother arguing about my feelings towards it?

 

[StreetWarrior]

IGN does not have much credibility; the aforementioned list is arranged without reason (such as a low-tier character as Captain Cold at # 27. Really?)

I agree with you but it does prove, along with several of the posters in this thread, that there are a good number of people who appreciate the character. Even comic writers - Mandarin almost killed 97% of the world's population via airborne Extremis virus in 2007 and nearly conquered the planet with alien-tech armored genocide mechs in 2012... to say that the character isn't a real threat or that he doesn't have a long history with Tony is foolish.

The Mandarin has been the protagonist in approximately 30 of the last 100 Iron Man issues (2004 - Current). That's huge, considering how large the Marvel Universe is.

Does the general public know who the Mandarin is? No. The general public didn't know who the Red Skull or Bane were either. Mass awareness does not indicate character threat levels or the respect due...

 

[signifyingmnky]

I really don't see why people who didn't like the movie are getting heat. I didn't like it. Plain and simple. Why bother arguing about my feelings towards it?

I don't think there's any heat for not liking it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I think there are just differences if opinion on whether this was a good adaptation of the Mandarin and why.

 

[WarrenPeace2012]

I don't think there's any heat for not liking it. If you don't like it, you don't like it. I think there are just differences if opinion on whether this was a good adaptation of the Mandarin and why.

Not just here, but I've been checking a few other places and people have this attitude that if you didn't like it, then you're wrong. Mostly stating that you couldn't see the political undertones of the movie and things like that. I know there will always be differences of opinion but some of the people on those sites need to chill

 

[metaphysician]

He said he was the Mandarin! Right in the film!

And his themes and characterization were largely consistent with the modern interpretation of the character, on top of that. Killian has more in common with the comic Mandarin than the Kingsley character would have.

 

[Destructus86]

I think people should re-read the background on the many retcons of the Mandarin...because the character is pretty silly.

 

[jonathancrane]

And his themes and characterization were largely consistent with the modern interpretation of the character, on top of that. Killian has more in common with the comic Mandarin than the Kingsley character would have.

Well said.

 

[metaphysician]

I continue to agree with you that they should have done a better job explaining/justifying the wounded warrior elements of the Extremis soldier story. I'm sure some of the volunteers (Savin and Brandt, for sure) idolized Killian for what he gave them, but others probably opted out of becoming part of his private mercenary army. There's the one guy who hilariously says, "Seriously, I don't even wanna work for them. They are so weird!"

I mentioned this in another thread, but remember the track record with super power induction. Unless you have a notably strong moral center and willpower, it tends to cause various forms of insanity and sociopathy. And a starting populace composed of desperate, disproportionately bitter people? Your probably going to have the negative side effects kick in. Now, we don't have any direct evidence of this, so I would presume the psychological side effects aren't as immediately extreme as with, say, the SSS. However, start with a population of people who have a very good logical reason to be grateful to Killian, and top that with a push towards being more ruthless and sociopathic from the treatment? I can entirely buy that the majority could be recruited by a charismatic figure like Killian.

Especially when you add these extra factors:
-Anyone more prone to insanity than evil probably lost control and exploded
-Anyone with a strong enough ethical core to resist Killian's pitch probably got killed and dissected
-Killian could filter his troops by loyalty level, and assign them tasks appropriately. The more ruthless ones could be sent to horribly kill people straight away, while the less immediately ruthless and loyal ones could be given less offensive jobs, that slowly inch up their involvement in bad things.