Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it?

[Flemm]

The crossovers in comics are constant.

It's happening a lot more recently, true, but traditionally not so much.

At some point, we'll probably see more "minor crossovers" on film so to speak. But right now, the whole thing is still very new.

 

[jmc]

So this isn't Phase 2 now? All the references to the Avengers were not there?

And not sure what you mean by that last sentence. I did enjoy the movie for what it is, but part of what it is is a contradiction. That is the problem with the shared universe and making such a big deal out of it.

Then ignore the shared universe aspect. The thing is every film in Marvel's catalog is viewable as a stand alone entity.

 

[JerseyJoker]

It's happening a lot more recently, true, but traditionally not so much.

At some point, we'll probably see more "minor crossovers" on film so to speak. But right now, the whole thing is still very new.

So your saying that Fantastic Four never read a paper from the Daily Bugle?

That Tony never calls Pym or Reed for help?

Crossovers are constant in the comics, its just its common term and topic that MCU made more infamous, because we see it in film.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

So your saying that Fantastic Four never read a paper from the Daily Bugle?

That Tony never calls Pym or Reed for help?

Crossovers are constant in the comics, its just its common term and topic that MCU made more infamous, because we see it in film.

Its interesting you bring this up. Looking back, the lack of a Daily Bugle is almost a substantial loss in the Iron Man series. They are always watching CNN, NBC, FOX... But we never see any news from the major Marvel NY publisher.

Never realized how sad that was until now.

 

[EternalMaster]

Everything happened in a brief period of time. No one would've known where the President was. Tony and Rhodes did because they stayed hot on Killain's trail following Air Force One.

And with the VP helping to keep misinformationabout... yeah. It would've been too late for anyone to help, had Tony Stark not saved the day.

And the whole Mandarin/Killian thing was pretty well done. Killian embodied everything cool about Mandarin in the comics... minus the rings. He was a powerful HtH combatant... poured oodles of money into making himself a powerhouse dominant perfect being... was a mad genius... and was seeking global-scale power and influence.

Now could the power rings have been done? Sure. But I like what they did just fine.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

All the ideas you would be trying to deconstruct are lost because of Killian. He is very typical.

You couldn't be more wrong. There are still plot tropes that the movie puts a spin on. The story itself twisted around and played with people's expectations of the movie. People were expecting The Mandarin to be this huge threatening terrorist and (ignoring the source material for a second) the fact that he was this drugged up actor was pretty hilarious.

Not to mention that Tony's whole arc completely played jump rope with some of the usual superhero conventions. What other hero movie spent practically the whole movie without being in the suit for more than 30 seconds?

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

You're right. I didn't word it correctly. But they could've gotten away with the alien rings if they wanted to. Or they could've introduced magic and mysticism, and later on linked it to Dr Strange since they do plan on making a film for him down the line.

I think what Marvel is doing is that they're taking baby steps. They want to explore a set genre with each movie for now. Iron Man 3 was a corporate espionage movie. Thor will explore more a mythological adventure movies. Captain America will be a political thriller, and Guardians will explore the cosmic side.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Then ignore the shared universe aspect. The thing is every film in Marvel's catalog is viewable as a stand alone entity.

So ignore what the keep bringing up. You shouldn't have to ignore anything. That is the point. Once you have to start manipulating this stuff, the battle is already lost.

And no, every film is not a stand alone entity. You lose a lot of IM3 without having seen IM, IM2 or the Avengers. The film relies heavy on past knowledge of the characters and their relationships. Just look at Tony's anxiety problem or his relationships with Pepper and Rhodey.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

You couldn't be more wrong. There are still plot tropes that the movie puts a spin on. The story itself twisted around and played with people's expectations of the movie. People were expecting The Mandarin to be this huge threatening terrorist and (ignoring the source material for a second) the fact that he was this drugged up actor was pretty hilarious.

Not to mention that Tony's whole arc completely played jump rope with some of the usual superhero conventions. What other hero movie spent practically the whole movie without being in the suit for more than 30 seconds?

Now we want the superhero to not be in the suit? Great. First it was no hero ever wears a mask. Now its gonna be no hero ever wears a costume.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You couldn't be more wrong. There are still plot tropes that the movie puts a spin on. The story itself twisted around and played with people's expectations of the movie. People were expecting The Mandarin to be this huge threatening terrorist and (ignoring the source material for a second) the fact that he was this drugged up actor was pretty hilarious.

Not to mention that Tony's whole arc completely played jump rope with some of the usual superhero conventions. What other hero movie spent practically the whole movie without being in the suit for more than 30 seconds?

Not sure what you mean here. Tony was in the armor for much longer then 30 seconds. Not too mention all the times he controlled the suit remote control style.

And no, the whole point is that The Mandarin does exist. He is a huge, threatening terrorist. He is Killian, who plans on being dealing human weapons.

 

[JerseyJoker]

Its interesting you bring this up. Looking back, the lack of a Daily Bugle is almost a substantial loss in the Iron Man series. They are always watching CNN, NBC, FOX... But we never see any news from the major Marvel NY publisher.

Never realized how sad that was until now.

That's usually for legal reasons than anything else, but at the same time, one of the big losses for the MCU is something like Daily Bugle, which would be something so easy to see in every east coast film.

 

[jmc]

So ignore what the keep bringing up. You shouldn't have to ignore anything. That is the point. Once you have to start manipulating this stuff, the battle is already lost.

And no, every film is not a stand alone entity. You lose a lot of IM3 without having seen IM, IM2 or the Avengers. The film relies heavy on past knowledge of the characters and their relationships. Just look at Tony's anxiety problem or his relationships with Pepper and Rhodey.

The film doesn't rely upon it, it simply uses it as a starting point, honestly you could take away the Avengers element and simply have it be about the struggles of being a superhero and the film still works. It's not that hard to figure out, in fact you haven't lost anything in that regards. Honestly, the amount of 'past knowledge' required to watch any of the films is minimal at best, it might add something to the story, but the story isn't reliant on past events to get its point across.

 

[Doc Samson]

You couldn't be more wrong. There are still plot tropes that the movie puts a spin on. The story itself twisted around and played with people's expectations of the movie. People were expecting The Mandarin to be this huge threatening terrorist and (ignoring the source material for a second) the fact that he was this drugged up actor was pretty hilarious.

Not to mention that Tony's whole arc completely played jump rope with some of the usual superhero conventions. What other hero movie spent practically the whole movie without being in the suit for more than 30 seconds?

Him out of the suit works, at least to me, because there is a point to it. It's showing that, indeed, Stark in his own right is the hero Cap challenged him to be in Avengers. Beyond just making the "sacrifice play" Stark showed in IM3 that, take the suit off, he's still a hero and not just a "billionaire, playboy, philanthropist." Now that's good storytelling to me.

The whole ruse with The Mandarin didn't come across as deep as some of you are trying to make it. It didn't feel like some intelligent deconstruction of comic book villains and/or terrorists. It felt like something they thought would be amusing, no more or less. It wasn't at all necessary to the story other than to be a bizarre plot twist.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The film doesn't rely upon it, it simply uses it as a starting point, honestly you could take away the Avengers element and simply have it be about the struggles of being a superhero and the film still works. It's not that hard to figure out, in fact you haven't lost anything in that regards. Honestly, the amount of 'past knowledge' required to watch any of the films is minimal at best, it might add something to the story, but the story isn't reliant on past events to get its point across.

Completely disagree. Most, if not all of Tony's anxiety comes from having to face the fact that he is just the guy in the "tin can". Tony realized he wasn't enough. That he is pretty low on the food chain. He is no Norse God or Hulk. He was confronted with the fact that there are other life forms in the universe, willing to come to Earth and wage war. Those that could kick his butt rather easily.

 

[BenKenobi]

Everyone that has a problem with the Mandarin turning out to be a contrived shallow caricature in order to serve an agenda, obviously hasn't put too much thought into how a character created during the cold war with the name "the Mandarin" came about in the first place.

 

[jmc]

Completely disagree. Most, if not all of Tony's anxiety comes from having to face the fact that he is just the guy in the ''tin can''. Tony realized he wasn't enough. That he is pretty low on the food chain. He is no Norse God or Hulk. He was confronted with the fact that there are other life forms in the universe, willing to come to Earth and wage war. Those that could kick his butt rather easily.

Do we need to have seen John Rambo in action in First Blood to understand he went through a traumatic experience in Vietnam?

 

[BenKenobi]

Him out of the suit works, at least to me, because there is a point to it. It's showing that, indeed, Stark in his own right is the hero Cap challenged him to be in Avengers. Beyond just making the "sacrifice play" Stark showed in IM3 that, take the suit off, he's still a hero and not just a "billionaire, playboy, philanthropist." Now that's good storytelling to me.

The whole ruse with The Mandarin didn't come across as deep as some of you are trying to make it. It didn't feel like some intelligent deconstruction of comic book villains and/or terrorists. It felt like something they thought would be amusing, no more or less. It wasn't at all necessary to the story other than to be a bizarre plot twist.

Yeah it was, the fact is they've had a hard time figuring out how to tastefully do the character for some time and they eventually realized that they should make a statement about how racist caricatures of societies antagonist of the moment are used to manipulate people into doing the wrong thing. It's like a magic trick you look at the obvious distraction while the real action goes un-noticed right before your face.

 

[BenKenobi]

The film doesn't rely upon it, it simply uses it as a starting point, honestly you could take away the Avengers element and simply have it be about the struggles of being a superhero and the film still works. It's not that hard to figure out, in fact you haven't lost anything in that regards. Honestly, the amount of 'past knowledge' required to watch any of the films is minimal at best, it might add something to the story, but the story isn't reliant on past events to get its point across.

given that it made 1.5 billion dollars it's safe to say almost the entire Iron Man target demographic is familiar with the material covered in the Avengers.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Do we need to have seen John Rambo in action in First Blood to understand he went through a traumatic experience in Vietnam?

That is why they have the Colonel, the flashbacks and all the exposition scenes that show you John's frame of mind. Most of the focus of those scenes in IM3 were on Killian. More importantly in IM3 there are direct references to those other films, using them as a sort of shorthand.

 

[jmc]

given that it made 1.5 billion dollars it's safe to say almost the entire Iron Man target demographic is familiar with the material covered in the Avengers.

What is even the point of that comment?

 

[jmc]

That is why they have the Colonel, the flashbacks and all the exposition scenes that show you John's frame of mind. Most of the focus of those scenes in IM3 were on Killian. More importantly in IM3 there are direct references to those other films, using them as a sort of shorthand.

But the concept is exactly the same! I'm saying the underlying concept in IM3 is not about The Avengers, it's about someone experiencing a great trauma, which is easy to pick up and why it works as a stand alone movie. Do you see where I'm getting at?

 

[Flemm]

So your saying that Fantastic Four never read a paper from the Daily Bugle?

Well, no, of course not. But I think that's obviously not what I was saying

This movie in fact *has* that kind of minor reference to the larger universe. Actually, as far as Tony's connection to the events of the shared universe is concerned, it's a major focus.

However: not every comic is a crossover. There are a lot of Iron Man comics in which no other Avenger appears. Why? Because that's how you flesh out each character's world, the story is told on a somewhat different scale, etc.

So, this was like a generic Iron Man comic from back in the day, in that sense. It's set in the same universe, but without the crossover component. I think it makes sense that we would see this for a while in the movies, because we just haven't seen as many stories told for these characters in that setting yet.

 

[Smashlilman]

Everyone that has a problem with the Mandarin turning out to be a contrived shallow caricature in order to serve an agenda, obviously hasn't put too much thought into how a character created during the cold war with the name "the Mandarin" came about in the first place.

That statement applies to every $#% last minority character created in the 60's and 70's including the Black Panther. He and the Wakandans were basically stereotypical caricatures of tribal Africans. That doesn’t' mean you complete rape the movie translation of the character.

God even the Falcon was created as an exPimp turn superhero becasue Marvel thought it would apeal to Black youth.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But the concept is exactly the same! I'm saying the underlying concept in IM3 is not about The Avengers, it's about someone experiencing a great trauma, which is easy to pick up and why it works as a stand alone movie. Do you see where I'm getting at?

I know what you are getting at, but it doesn't really apply. Vietnam is a historical event and was still a hot button issue with Rambo came out. And yet it still needed exposition. They covered why John was hurting so much. It is why he has his massive breakdown.

Here, they are directly referencing another film. It isn't a simple trauma, it is specifically related to that film. Referencing a big guy with a hammer, alien and wormholes doesn't convey much without having seen the Avengers. A kid referencing something called "the Avengers" has no context without the film.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

That statement applies to every $#% last minority character created in the 60's and 70's including the Black Panther. He and the Wakandans were basically stereotypical caricatures of tribal Africans. That doesn’t' mean you complete rape the movie translation of the character.

God even the Falcon was an exPimp turn superhero.

This. If they're gonna PC the hell outta every stereotypical superhero(which is the vast majority of minority characters, like you said) then they might as well not attempt to include them in this movie-verse. Just continue making lesser white characters black(Electro, Kingpin, Heimdal) instead. I want my Luke Cage to talk just as much jive as he does in the comics. If we ever do get to see Wakanda, they better be wearing loincloths despite being extremely technologically advanced.