The Prestige question

[Schlosser85]

The twin especially is an *******, but neither Borden is as cruel as Angier. I think the difference is how deliberately Angier plans everything. He's far more malicious.

And like Kahran pointed out, even after all their fighting the whole movie, the worse of the Borden twins still tries to save Angier's life, and Angier lets him hang for it.

 

[ctriis]

Theory about the ending (can't remember where I read it) :

- Tesla's machine didn't work (in fact the whole segment of the film concerning Tesla could be made up by Angier if the theory is correct, or Tesla could have just fooled Angier for his deep pockets)
- Angier used a double for The Real Transported Man 99 times, with no one dying
- The last performance of The Real Transported Man uses a water tank and the double is the guy who falls in it and dies
- When Fallon goes to kill Angier we see many water tanks, but only one with a body in it, it's the double

 

[Schlosser85]

I don't buy it. Angier talks at the end about how every time he drowned the others, never knowing if it was going to be him in the tank. He's dying at that point and has no reason to monologue about stuff that never happened.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't buy it. Angier talks at the end about how every time he drowned the others, never knowing if it was going to be him in the tank. He's dying at that point and has no reason to monologue about stuff that never happened.

And who was the guy he murdered in Colorado then?

 

[Supernova]

Simple, bale had a real twin brother no one knew about and took turns being the main character hence why jackman says to himself that reading his book it feels like dueling personalities. Jackman by pure luck gets an actual clone machine and bybthe end of the movie the real jackman died already amd we are just seeing his clones going killing each other for the act repeatedly. Jackman also only did a certain amount of shows becuase he didnt want his clone dead bodies piling up.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

One theory that I do think is plausible is that the cloning machine had some issues where it affect the minds of the clones. It would explain why Angier really goes off the deep end after he starts using the machine. The original Angier would have been murdered by his first clone back in Colorado.

But he was still really scummy before he even left for Colorado and everything that Angier does in the last act is right in line with what he wants earlier in the film. Plus, Angier bought a gun with him for the first use of the machine for a reason. So while plausible, I don't consider it highly likely. Signs point towards the original Angier knowing full well what he was doing.

 

[Maximus One]

I'm glad I'm not the only person that thinks this is Nolan's best film. One of Bale's greatest performances as well. Like was mentioned before, the way he shifts from Freddie to Alfred from scene to scene is so incredibly subtle and just absolutely outstanding. I must have seen this a few dozen times when it first came out. One of the only movies I had to watch a couple times to get exactly what happened.

 

[batman1]

The genius thing about his performance is that you can tell which one he's playing from scene to scene. It is incredibly subtle and only noticeable when you know the twist.


I don't. The ambiguity of it is part of its greatness. The mystery is what makes the story a big sleight of hand in and of itself. The whole film is a big magic trick and, as the saying goes, a magician should never reveal his secrets.

Such a good film.

 

[batman1]

I'm glad I'm not the only person that thinks this is Nolan's best film. One of Bale's greatest performances as well. Like was mentioned before, the way he shifts from Freddie to Alfred from scene to scene is so incredibly subtle and just absolutely outstanding. I must have seen this a few dozen times when it first came out. One of the only movies I had to watch a couple times to get exactly what happened.

Bale took it there as usual. So did Jackman. But this movie was wonderfully written and directed.

 

[CELTICPRED]

Tesla's machine worked for Angier. Remember the gigantic pile of hats?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Tesla's machine worked for Angier. Remember the gigantic pile of hats?

Alley's cat was cloned too.

 

[Warhammer]

I can't agree with that. Borden had his faults, but he legitimately did try to make things work out. He bombed spectacularly, but at least the effort was there.

Angier was a deranged psychopath who didn't give a crap about anyone. He even tells Olivia (while exploiting her too) that he doesn't care about his wife, just about destroying Borden. There was a good reason why his two closest allies (Olivia and Cutter) both abandon him for Borden.

Cutter was the only sensible one in the entire movie, but Borden was definitely more sympathetic than Angier.

The death of Angier's wife was a complete accident on the part of the other Borden twin. Doesn't make it right (just like Borden is also responsible for his wife's suicide), but it's not this calculated malicious scheme like what Angier comes up with.

Angier drowns 100 clones of himself just to give an impressive show. He's committing murder every night to impress an audience. He pimps out Olivia to Borden. Also, he frames Borden for his death, lets him hang for it, and steals his son, and the scene where Cutter visits makes it clear Angier doesn't give a **** about this kid, he just took him away from Borden to have another victory, and he's going to sentence this kid to growing up with a cold and indifferent father figure who doesn't give a damn about him.

All of that last bit is way more intentionally vicious than anything Borden ever did to Angier.

Borden is worse. Why? Because of carelessness.

His obsession with his illusion meant more to him than another human life. And it happens twice. He was responsible for killing Angier's wife which affects not only Julia, but Angier himself. Both were innocent victims of that carelessness. Borden initiates the feud. Borden also allows his wife and the mother of his child to become so depressed that she kills herself. That affected Sarah, Borden, and their child. Jess Borden gets to grow up without a mother...for an illusion. An illusion that, at the end of the day, amounting to nothing.

Both Borden and Angier both do evil things, sure. But what is more malicious than what I stated above? Killing clones of yourself doesn't have anything on that.

 

[Brother Jack]

Tesla's machine worked for Angier. Remember the gigantic pile of hats?

The movie basically tells you the twist with the first shot, along with a coded challenge to the audience: "Are you watching closely?". It's right there the entire time and it's hidden in the way a magician hides the secret of his trick. The whole film is a magic trick. And it works, as it goes, because the audience wants to be fooled. Nolan's a master at constructing his movies to coincide with its thematic and narrative content. Inception feels like a dream and Memento makes you as clueless as the protagonist.

 

[Warhammer]

The movie basically tells you the twist with the first shot, along with a coded challenge to the audience: "Are you watching closely?". It's right there the entire time and it's hidden in the way a magician hides the secret of his trick. The whole film is a magic trick. And it works, as it goes, because the audience wants to be fooled.

The best part about some of Nolan's films is that within the first five minutes, he subtly tells you something about the ending. It's only when you finish watching the film that you realize the payoff. The Prestige, The Dark Knight, Inception, and Interstellar come to mind.

 

[flickchick85]

Both Borden and Angier both do evil things, sure. But what is more malicious than what I stated above? Killing clones of yourself doesn't have anything on that.

No, but framing a guy for murder so he's sentenced to death and taking his daughter away over an illusion comes close. In fact I'd say that's more malicious because he did it with the intent to harm.

But yeah, they were both pretty terrible people at the end of the day.

 

[Maximus One]

Angier is the instigator, though. Borden went about his life after the incident with Angier's wife. Angier made the decision to seek vengeance. And the way you say things, it's like you're speaking of Borden like a single person. Freddie and Alfred were both completely dedicated to their craft but one of them genuinely did love Sarah. I wouldn't say his craft meant more to him, that's a rather simplistic way of looking at it and the complexity of the characters. Both of them were just absolutely, unequivocally devoted to their craft. It isn't their fault that Sarah became so unhinged. She hints that she's figured it all out but, why would she go to such drastic lengths? Why wouldn't she out them? Looking at it that way removes all accountability from Sarah and her own actions. Obviously this isn't a movie about black and white, good vs evil. Honestly, I would say Angier is the worst of the two for the simple fact that he is the initial instigator in their rivalry. Borden is responsible for his own actions just as Sarah and Angier are theirs. Really, everybody in this movie is quite unhinged I think except for Olivia and Cutter.

 

[Maximus One]

The movie basically tells you the twist with the first shot, along with a coded challenge to the audience: "Are you watching closely?". It's right there the entire time and it's hidden in the way a magician hides the secret of his trick. The whole film is a magic trick. And it works, as it goes, because the audience wants to be fooled. Nolan's a master at constructing his movies to coincide with its thematic and narrative content. Inception feels like a dream and Memento makes you as clueless as the protagonist.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Brother Jack]

The best part about some of Nolan's films is that within the first five minutes, he subtly tells you something about the ending. It's only when you finish watching the film that you realize the payoff. The Prestige, The Dark Knight, Inception, and Interstellar come to mind.

With Interstellar I felt like it was pretty obvious. I gleaned right off the bat that the old woman was [BLACKOUT]Murph[/BLACKOUT] and that [BLACKOUT]Cooper[/BLACKOUT] was the "ghost".

 

[Warhammer]

No, but framing a guy for murder so he's sentenced to death and taking his daughter away over an illusion comes close. In fact I'd say that's more malicious because he did it with the intent to harm.

But yeah, they were both pretty terrible people at the end of the day.

I'll give you that.

Angier is the instigator, though. Borden went about his life after the incident with Angier's wife. Angier made the decision to seek vengeance.

In Angier's defense, he was blinded by rage. His wife was killed by carelessness. Vengeance is never justified, but the viewers can certainly see why and sympathize.

And the way you say things, it's like you're speaking of Borden like a single person. Freddie and Alfred were both completely dedicated to their craft but one of them genuinely did love Sarah. I wouldn't say his craft meant more to him, that's a rather simplistic way of looking at it and the complexity of the characters. Both of them were just absolutely, unequivocally devoted to their craft. It isn't their fault that Sarah became so unhinged.

No way, man.

She hints that she's figured it all out but, why would she go to such drastic lengths? Why wouldn't she out them? Looking at it that way removes all accountability from Sarah and her own actions.

See, I'd give you that, but that plot point is merely hinted at, not confirmed. So that doesn't hold much water here.

 

[kvz5]

I can't even blame Borden solely on the death of Angier's wife. IIRC, she gave him the approval (nod) to use that specific knot.

 

[Maximus One]

Angier was blinded by rage but, as you said it still doesn't justify it. Some people can sympathize with Borden just as much as they can Angier. And also, I just can't see a person being responsible for somebody's own mental instability. That's just something that isn't anybody's fault. You wouldn't say it's his fault if she had cancer. The same goes for mental issues. The ultimate decision to take her own life was on her head and hers alone. She's the one that left her daughter and husband. A husband who had, done what exactly? Now that I really sit here and think about it, the more annoyed I'm getting. They really don't say why she was so unhinged other than she "figured out his secret" which is never even confirmed.

 

[flickchick85]

She was duped into marrying two men. She was living her life with two people pretending to be one. She HAD A CHILD with two men unknowingly. She probably didn't even know which one was the father. How are they not remotely responsible for her mental state after essentially conning her for years? I mean, their entire life as she knew it was a lie. Obviously, her choice to take her own life was ultimately her decision, but there's no way the Bordens weren't largely responsible for the emotional distress she was experiencing that led her down that path. That's not comparable to cancer, which they would have had nothing to do with.

They weren't malicious about it, but they did a horrible thing to a human being that one of them was supposed to have loved.

 

[Warhammer]

I can't even blame Borden solely on the death of Angier's wife. IIRC, she gave him the approval (nod) to use that specific knot.

The problem was that one of the Borden brothers knew which knot to tie while the other did not. It was arranged. It was the Borden brother at the performance who didn't know, which causes Julia's death. This is why the one brother couldn't tell Angier which knot he tied. Though remorseful, he had no idea. Pure carelessness.

Angier was blinded by rage but, as you said it still doesn't justify it. Some people can sympathize with Borden just as much as they can Angier. And also, I just can't see a person being responsible for somebody's own mental instability. That's just something that isn't anybody's fault. You wouldn't say it's his fault if she had cancer. The same goes for mental issues. The ultimate decision to take her own life was on her head and hers alone. She's the one that left her daughter and husband. A husband who had, done what exactly? Now that I really sit here and think about it, the more annoyed I'm getting. They really don't say why she was so unhinged other than she "figured out his secret" which is never even confirmed.

Dude, I cannot see the logic in this. Yes, I understand that ultimately, it was Sarah's choice and hers alone to kill herself, but look at what Flickchick said. She says it better than I could have. I agree with her 100%. And that right there is worse than anything Angier did. The worse mistakes are the avoidable ones. And for the Borden brothers (especially the one who loved Sarah), he decided that his illusion was more important than his wife. And look where it got him and his daughter.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I will never understand the argument that Borden was worse than Angier. I'm not saying that Borden is a paragon of virtue. He does some rotten things, but it is nowhere near as bad as what Angier does.

Let's compare their crimes:

Borden
-Works with Julia (with her full approval) to come up with a better knot so that she doesn't slip out while being hoisted into the water tank and potentially injure herself. Both of them ignore Cutter's warnings about it being unsafe and it results in her death.
-Marries Sarah and has a family while hiding that he has a twin brother and they often switch roles. This eventually ends up in her suicide. Both brothers eventually figure out something is wrong and try talking to her, but it is too late.
-Sabatoges Angier's bird trick resulting in one dead bird and a few broken fingers.
-Convinces Root to betray Angier.
-Lies to Angier about his method to get him to go America, out of his hair.
-One Borden continues to go Angier's show to figure out his trick after his brother tells him to give it up.
-Murders Angier at the very end of the film.

Angier
-Tries to murder Borden in public. Borden loses his fingers and only keeps his life because Fallon interfered.
-Sends his mistress to sleep with Borden and steal his secrets. She leaves Angier over this.
-Kidnaps Fallon and buries him alive.
-Spends countless dollars funding Tesla for the sole purpose of revenge.
-Shoots his clone (or original self).
-Drowns another 100 (!) of his clones.
-Frames Borden (who was trying to save his life) for murder
-Steals Jess from Fallon.
-After Borden gives in and gives him the secrets to all of his tricks to try and save his daughter, and begs him for forgiveness and mercy, Angier lets him hang anyways for a crime he didn't commit.

Borden was reckless. Angier was psychotic.

I think there was no question Angier was worse.

Really, everybody in this movie is quite unhinged I think except for Olivia and Cutter.

And both of them leave Angier for Borden. That should tell us something.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The worse mistakes are the avoidable ones.

The worst crimes are the ones you do while knowing what the results are going to be and the harm they will bring to others, and then do them anyways.

Borden in no way intended for his relationship with Sarah to end up like it did. He was oblivious to her problems for the longest time, eventually tries to talk things out, begs his brother to help him save his marriage (which just makes things worse), and fails miserably. Was it a scummy thing that he did? Definitely. That is not worse than a hundred murders, another several attempted murders, kidnapping, and all the other crimes that Angier committed.

That's like saying Joe Chill is worse than the Joker.

And there is little indication that Borden cares more about his trick than his family. In fact, he gives up the secrets to all of his tricks, including the Transporting Man, in an attempt to save Jess.