The Progressive Movement

[Paradoxium]

When I say liberal, I refer to:

Progressive Liberal or the modern left/liberal. Not the original liberals, aka the classical liberals.

I reserve this first post for now which will involve a little discussion about Progressives and Saul Alinsky. As in Saul "Rules for Radicals" Alinsky, to whom Ms. Hilary wrote her thesis about (well on his materials). Who is incredibly influential in the progressive movement and the modern left/liberal movement.

Anti-capitalist, anti-individualist.... pro control economy and collectivists.

Here is an image to make a few heads explode.

Discuss about the new modern "liberal" and its roots.

 

[Paradoxium]

Table of Contents

- Alinsky Quotes and Summaries Part 1
- Alinsky on Ethics of Means and Ends

Readings
- Barack Obama's unlikely political education.



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Don't merge this with the liberal post, because that post does NOT distinguish between classical to the "progressive" strain. Classical vs. Progressive Liberalism is very very different. Progressive liberalism IS NOT an evolution of classical liberalism. The closes might be libertarianism at most.

 

[VampElvis]

I've always wondered how they were able to usurp the term progressive. I assume it came from some assumptions in the days of Teddy Roosevelt that they were progressing society vis a vis workers rights and federal regulation - Upton Sinclair and the The Jungle and all. I can see through the glasses of hindsight were that may have been accurate to some extent at the time but it seems to me that the movement has been radicalized and extended beyond this to the point they are trying to "progress" society to a point beyond it natural evolution such that they've taken it almost in a circle with the all powerful federal government taking the place of the old "evils" and shaping the populace into an unnamed mass herded by the nanny state.

Arrgghh, I better stop there before I start talking Pol Pot and number instead of names in some rambling monologue on matters in which I am not an expert.

 

[VampElvis]

Can you really not see the difference between the two? I see this thread as a forum to discuss a long standing political ideology with which many of today's leading politicians self identify. I see what you posted as pretty much nothing more than a way for you to attack most conservatives as ignorant God-loving racists oligarchs under the guise of a political term that seems accepted only by the left of the left. It's neither couth nor correct. If you wanted a serious discussion you could frame your argument in such a manner that it could be taken seriously and not viewed as hate filled ramblings.

 

[The Overlord]

When I say liberal, I refer to:

Progressive Liberal or the modern left/liberal. Not the original liberals, aka the classical liberals.

I reserve this first post for now which will involve a little discussion about Progressives and Saul Alinsky. As in Saul "Rules for Radicals" Alinsky, to whom Ms. Hilary wrote her thesis about (well on his materials). Who is incredibly influential in the progressive movement and the modern left/liberal movement.

Anti-capitalist, anti-individualist.... pro control economy and collectivists.

Here is an image to make a few heads explode.

Discuss about the new modern "liberal" and its roots.

First all of you are lumping in a bunch of people just because they all are "left wing". You might as well try lump together Ron Paul and Fred Phelps together, because they are both "right wing", its silly.

Second you have a picture of Bush there and no one left wing would consider Bush left wing, has that whole image is just incorrect. A lot left wingers thought Bush promoted big government just to protect his own rich friends, i.e: Halliburton getting no bid contracts in Iraq. Just because Bush increased in the size of government doesn't make him left wing, heck a lot left wingers were distrustful of the government when Bush was in charge

Third right wingers can be collectivists as well, what about the family values crowd who want to give more power to government organizations like FCC and feel the government has a role to protect family values. are they left wing now? Because the GOP is far more pro family values then Dems and in Iran they have a whole dictatorship created to protect family values. Is Iran left wing now?

Also what about left wingers that don't fit into the big government box, don't anarchists support a smaller government then the one you support?

This whole thread is flawed because it is nothing more then just setting up a political straw man for you to knock down, not a reasonable and unbiased discussion of what a left winger is.

 

[Venom'sDad]

This whole thread is flawed because it is nothing more then just setting up a political straw man to knock down, not a reasonable and unbiased discussion.

Promotes the already inherited divide and distract the masses from the inevitable path, this country is moving.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Only two southern Dixiecrat politicians (on a state or national level - not necessarily local) became Republicans. One was Strom Thurman and the other was a Strom Thurman lackey. When Strom Thurman joined the Republican Party, he had to meet with Barry Goldwater. Barry Goldwater told him that Thurman would have to end his segregationalist stance as it would not be tolerated in the party.

really?

As many had feared, a majority of southern delegates, including all 22 members of the Mississippi delegation and 13 from Alabama, walked out of the convention and formed their own party—the States' Rights Democratic Party. The Dixiecrats, as they were also known, held a one-day convention on July 17, 1948, in Birmingham, Alabama, in which they nominated South Carolina governor strom thurmond for president and chose Mississippi governor Fielding L. Wright as their vice-presidential candidate.
The States' Rights Party sought to take votes from both the Democratic and Republican parties by emphasizing the sovereignty of the states and by denouncing Truman and the Democratic Party's proposed civil rights legislation as an immense threat to the states. In Alabama the Dixiecrats succeeded in preventing President Truman's name from being placed on the election ballot.

 

[StorminNorman]

Promotes the already inherited divide and distract the masses from the inevitable path, this country is moving.

Moving how?

 

[StorminNorman]

really?

As many had feared, a majority of southern delegates, including all 22 members of the Mississippi delegation and 13 from Alabama, walked out of the convention and formed their own party—the States' Rights Democratic Party. The Dixiecrats, as they were also known, held a one-day convention on July 17, 1948, in Birmingham, Alabama, in which they nominated South Carolina governor strom thurmond for president and chose Mississippi governor Fielding L. Wright as their vice-presidential candidate.
The States' Rights Party sought to take votes from both the Democratic and Republican parties by emphasizing the sovereignty of the states and by denouncing Truman and the Democratic Party's proposed civil rights legislation as an immense threat to the states. In Alabama the Dixiecrats succeeded in preventing President Truman's name from being placed on the election ballot.

Yes, really. None of this is relevant to what I just told you.

 

[StorminNorman]

exactly which is why I purposely posted a mirror image of it. and we see how one thread gets shutdown and I get admonished by a mod for doing the same thing Paradoxium did.

I don't see the insults 'dox's thread. Paradox's thread is a discussion about the New Left, your thread was an insult of the Right. You can't see the difference?

I bet if you made an insult free discussion of conservatives, it would be fine.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't see the insults 'dox's thread. Paradox's thread is a discussion about the New Left, your thread was an insult of the Right. You can't see the difference?

I bet if you made an insult free discussion of conservatives, it would be fine.

Except the definition Dox provides for liberals at the beginning is some broad stereotype that doesn't apply to a lot of left wingers. Like I sad this whole thread comes across as nothing then an attempt to create a straw man to knock down, then any sort of reasonable discussion of what a left winger is. This is a huge logical fallacy. Plus lumping in communists, socialists and liberals is beyond silly, I might as well lump together conservatives in the US, with some reactionary terrorist group, that would make about as much sense as the premise of this thread.

 

[StorminNorman]

I think Dox was specifically talking about Alinskey's liberal movement - the movement that inspired Obama and Hillary Clinton.

 

[StorminNorman]

only because what you said was not relavant to what I was talking about either then. just admit it you got proven wrong.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You specifically mention the idea that the Dixiecrats became Republicans. Your "proof", however, had stated nothing to do with Republican and had everything to do with the Dixiecrat movement (of which I did not argue existed). While many Dixiecrat supporters did, and while a handful of Dixiecrat politicians did, it was not the mass exodus you are claiming it to be. You are simply wrong.

Stating Pat Buchanan as the architect of the Southern Strategy is also wrong.

This is not an area you want to engage me in - the success of the Southern Strategy is my father's legacy.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

I think Dox was specifically talking about Alinskey's liberal movement - the movement that inspired Obama and Hillary Clinton.

and I was referring to Buchanan's influence on the modern conservatives like Palin. hard to argue the southern strategy didn't influence the party and shape it into the thing it has become.

 

[StorminNorman]

and I was referring to Buchanan's influence on the modern conservatives like Palin. hard to argue the southern strategy didn't influence the party and shape it into the thing it has become.

The Buchanan reference wasn't the insult.



.
dry
.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

You specifically mention the idea that the Dixiecrats became Republicans. Your "proof", however, had stated nothing to do with Republican and had everything to do with the Dixiecrat movement (of which I did not argue existed). While many Dixiecrat supporters did, and while a handful of Dixiecrat politicians did, it was not the mass exodus you are claiming it to be. You are simply wrong.

no you're wrong. it did evolve into what the GOP is today.
Oh sure they have their tokens but that's about it. they try to suppress minority votes. they target black neighborhoods for caging. etc.

you cannot deny it. it's the truth and you look stupid trying to deny it.

 

[The Overlord]

I think Dox was specifically talking about Alinskey's liberal movement - the movement that inspired Obama and Hillary Clinton.

Except he used the term communist in the title, if you are going to use a hot word like that in title be prepared for this thread to degenerate into flame bait.

Anyway, both Bill Gates and Warren Buffet supported Obama, are they anti capitalist too? Not mention I think its extremely silly to lump Keynesian economics with communism, they are two different things. I don't think a Keynesian is anti capitalism like a Marxist, a Keynesian just believes the market works better with some controls, rather then unfettered, they believe in the market with some controls, which is different from a Marxist who doesn't believe in the market at all.

Really now you can say Obama is Keynesian and Keynesian economics are considered left wing, by many, but to say Obama is Marxist is completely silly and would only be said by those who have no concept of what Marxism is supposed to be, almost all Marxists don't like Obama. What evidence is there that Obama believes in historical materialism?

 

[StorminNorman]

no you're wrong. it did evolve into what the GOP is today.
Oh sure they have their tokens but that's about it. they try to suppress minority votes. they target black neighborhoods for caging. etc.

you cannot deny it. it's the truth and you look stupid trying to deny it.

The fact that you are trying to tell me, the son of one of the most prominent Republican Political Consultants in the South during the 60's and 70's (and a former Republican Party Communications Chairman) what actually happened is amusing.

Since you clearly have no interest in actual discourse, nor do you care about actually learning about what went on in the south if it doesn't fit your narrow, flawed, biased view of it I am done with you.

I will let everyone else judge who looks stupid here.

 

[StorminNorman]

Except he used the term communist in the title, if you are going to use a hot word like that in title be prepared for this thread to degenerate into flame bait.

But a lot of new left liberals ARE communists. Honestly if I had used the word communist in a title to about liberals, it would probably be used insultingly. But 'dox doesn't play games like that - he is referring to "small c" communists that ARE a part of today's left.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

The fact that you are trying to tell me, the son of one of the most prominent Republican Political Consultants in the South during the 60's and 70's (and a former Republican Party Communications Chairman) what actually happened is amusing.

Since you clearly have no interest in actual discourse, nor do you care about actually learning about what went on in the south if it doesn't fit your narrow, flawed, biased view of it I am done with you.

I will let everyone else judge who looks stupid here.

well there ya go right there. your partisan background and upbringing has obviously misinformed you.

I'm over 50 yrs old and was raised in the deep south. my family was not political in any way (and still aren't other than me)

 

[StorminNorman]

I'm over 50 yrs old and was raised in the deep south. my family was not political in any way (and still aren't other than me)

You are much older than I expected.

 

[The Overlord]

But a lot of new left liberals ARE communists. Honestly if I had used the word communist in a title to about liberals, it would probably be used insultingly. But 'dox doesn't play games like that - he is referring to "small c" communists that ARE a part of today's left.

You either a communist or not, there is no between. You have believe in no free enterprise at all, none. You have to believe historical materialism, if you don't, you are not communist. Which "new liberals" believe in historical materialism?

Even the Chinese government isn't communist, because the Communist Manifesto says can't have child labor and China has some private enterprise, which you can't have that under communism.

There are rules to communism and if you don't follow those rules you aren't a communist, just like if you don't believe Jesus is the son of God, you are not a Christian.

Really now, Dox comes off as lumping together a bunch of people he doesn't like, without studying individual ethos of the ideologies he has mentioned, that's why his definition of a left winger comes across a board stereotype and straw man.

It seems like Dox and you talk about communism all the time, but why are you better at defining communism, then actual communists, who don't like Obama.

 

[StorminNorman]

It seems like Dox and you talk about communism all the time, but why are you better at defining communism, then actual communists, who don't like Obama.

I don't remember any of these conversations.

 

[C.F. Kane]

You know, having a thread discuss the tenets of modern liberalism sounds like a good idea in theory. Has a liberal on this board created a thread specifically for an in-depth discussion of liberal values?

 

[Hobodeluxe]

You are much older than I expected.

hard to judge a book by it's cover. I'm old school. Had a lot of friends and family who fought the commies and some didn't make it back. So I take great offense. To me commie used as a pejorative means enemy of the state. I remember duck and cover,the air raid sirens and the threat of nuclear elimination. (although it was hyped of course by the govt.) I remember barely missing the draft and watching as the rich and privileged skated by while the poor got sent off to die.

yeah I remember the race riots in front of the house,people throwing rocks like what you saw in Iran. police armed guards at my school.

I've watched as the country has moved to the right especially after Reagan and the media takeover by the conservatives.
The fairness doctrine.which made one sided conversations possible.
Media consolidation,Murdoch's rise I've watched it all.