The Progressive Movement

[Hobodeluxe]

You know, having a thread discuss the tenets of modern liberalism sounds like a good idea in theory. Has a liberal on this board created a thread specifically for an in-depth discussion of liberal values?

we could turn this one into one. if Dox wants to change the title I'll edit all my stuff out and we can try to have a real discussion.

I'm all for rational discourse but if you want to roll in the mud I'll go there too.

 

[StorminNorman]

hard to judge a book by it's cover. I'm old school. Had a lot of friends and family who fought the commies and some didn't make it back. So I take great offense. To me commie used as a pejorative means enemy of the state. I remember duck and cover,the air raid sirens and the threat of nuclear elimination. (although it was hyped of course by the govt.) I remember barely missing the draft and watching as the rich and privileged skated by while the poor got sent off to die.

Take offense to the people that hold communist values, not those who don't have a problem calling a spade a shovel.

yeah I remember the race riots in front of the house,people throwing rocks like what you saw in Iran. police armed guards at my school.

I've watched as the country has moved to the right especially after Reagan and the media takeover by the conservatives.
The fairness doctrine.which made one sided conversations possible.
Media consolidation,Murdoch's rise I've watched it all.

...

 

[StorminNorman]

we could turn this one into one. if Dox wants to change the title I'll edit all my stuff out and we can try to have a real discussion.

I'm all for rational discourse but if you want to roll in the mud I'll go there too.

Communist isn't an insult, it's an ideology.

 

[The Overlord]

Communist isn't an insult, it's an ideology.

Fascism is an ideology, but I doubt most people like being called fascist.

I don't remember any of these conversations.

So you never called Obama a Marxist or defended Glen Beck saying that Obama is a communist?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16909950&postcount=45

So it does seem like you talk about communism fair amount and apply it to people who are not communists.

I mean how much do you actually know about communism? I'm not an expert, I just studied many different ideologies in school, but I paid enough attention to know some of the basic rules of this ideology. When you use the term communist, do you know the ethos behind it or you are just using it some generic bogey man term for anyone you don't like?

 

[StorminNorman]

Fascism is an ideology, but I doubt most people like being called fascist.

I don't think he is calling anyone a communist. Notice it is titled The New Left/Liberals AND communists, socialists and progressives. Not The New Left/Liberals: They are all communists!

So you never called Obama a Marxist or defended Glen Beck saying that Obama is a communist?

Honestly, not to be cute, but no - I don't think I have ever called Obama a Marxist.

 

[Paradoxium]

The communist and Alinsky influenced progressives share similar ideals, but their strategic approach and way of going about things are incredibly different. The former is more aggressive and overt; the latter is more subtle, slow and "progressive" in changing things. It's like 3rd Generation to 4th generation warfare.

Alinsky and his influence is very critical and often lost in the mix. People hate on Ayers or Wright and their connection to Obama, but if you dig back more, you find Alinsky influenced Obama, Ayers, Hilary, Wright and many prominent Democratic leaders (not all mind you). Albeit, their approaches differ in their interpretation of Alinsky, like Hilary who some progressives think betrayed their movement but more likely she is interpreting Alinsky differently and executing power moves in a much more subtle way (hopefully I can get to this). For an example, Wright would be more extreme and overt, but one conceivable argues that Obama was more likely to be riding the coat tails of this movement to power or is more passive about it.

My job is to explain the similarities in ideals and their strategic difference. I do admire some of the strategic prowess and maybe deconstruct a few. Like I admire the tactics of Mao, but I am absolutely disgusted by his politics.

I started the thread, so I can put material and link the first post and second post in the future. I am right now trying to sort this out a little, because the material on this subject is dense. I am expecting some on the left to be upset by this post, but it is worth mentioning I do not view every single progressive to have this brand of politics. They make up a part of the Democratic party and have influence and it is shifting towards them. Lest we forget, the Republicans used to be the Secular Libertarians, and the Democrats were the religious populist party.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't think he is calling anyone a communist. Notice it is titled The New Left/Liberals AND communists, socialists and progressives. Not The New Left/Liberals: They are all communists!

Which new liberals are communist? You can't just throw that out there, without any proof.

You can't use a hot word like communist and not expect it cause some flames, that word either needs a lot of context or causes trouble.

Honestly, not to be cute, but no - I don't think I have ever called Obama a Marxist.

Except you did: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16909950&postcount=45

Really now the site has a search engine. Again I ask, if you feel conformable claiming Obama is a Marxist, how much do you know about Marxism?

The communist and Alinsky influenced progressives share similar ideals, but their strategic approach and way of going about things are incredibly different. The former is more aggressive and overt; the latter is more subtle, slow and "progressive" in changing things. It's like 3rd Generation to 4th generation warfare.

Does Alinksy believe in the ethos of Marxism, does he believe in historical materialism? If Obama beleives in Alinsky and Alinsky is some sort of Marxist, then is Obama some sort of Marxist, despite the fact that Obama is disliked by Marxists? Is there evidence Obama plans getting rid of of all private enterprise? Because if you have private enterprise, you are not a Marxist.

It seems like you are using intentionally vague terms in order to create a negative association, it would be saying Marxism and Keynesian economics are the same thing, when clearly they are not.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

Take offense to the people that hold communist values, not those who don't have a problem calling a spade a shovel.



...

who holds "communist" values?

and what are they by your definition?

Keep in mind I will counterpoint you with the fascist/oligarch values held by republicans.

 

[Paradoxium]

As I have stated in the past:

Progressive is a euphemism for Communist, or rather a small c then a big C. Kind of like small "l" to big "L" libertarians. And while they are not completely the same, they do share similar ideals or visions. They just go about it more differently. The thing with me is, I actually prefer the big C, because they are at least overt and honest about it despite my not agreeing with them.

 

[The Overlord]

As I have stated in the past:

Progressive is a euphemism for Communist, or rather a small c then a big C. Kind of like small "l" to big "L" libertarians. And while they are not completely the same, they do share similar ideals or visions. They just go about it more differently. The thing with me is, I actually prefer the big C, because they are at least overt and honest about it despite my not agreeing with them.

There is no such thing as a small c Communist, you either are communist or you are not, if either believe in Marx's ethos of historical materialism and no free enterprise, at all or you don't. Any society that has any free enterprise, is not communist, period.

I mean who in politics now is a small c Communist? Is Canada a small C Communist country?

The fact is Marxists don't like Obama and I consider their opinion what Marxism is, more important then your opinion on this subject, because really they likely have studied Marxism far more then you have.

Using communism is such a broad sense and ignoring its historical ethos, renders the term meaningless, its separates it from its ethos and just becomes some generic bogey man term that you can apply to anyone you disagree with.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

As I have stated in the past:

Progressive is a euphemism for Communist, or rather a small c then a big C. Kind of like small "l" to big "L" libertarians. And while they are not completely the same, they do share similar ideals or visions. They just go about it more differently. The thing with me is, I actually prefer the big C, because they are at least overt and honest about it despite my not agreeing with them.

Ah so we're covert and liars? got it.

I'm the same with conservatives who won't admit their party has a racist and fascist agenda. they're liars on top of it too.

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't care whether you like their opinion less or more than me.

Nor do I care for what hardcore Marxist want to define their reality as acceptable or not.

These Marxist also choose to define Nazi Germany as a capitalist state, but does it mean they are right? No.

 

[Paradoxium]

Ah so we're covert and liars? got it.

I'm the same with conservatives who won't admit their party has a racist and fascist agenda. they're liars on top of it.

You are trying to construct this as a left and right wing paradigm. Your problem is you assume I am right wing because I do not agree with progressives.

I actually have problems with the Republicans, Democrats, and Libertarians. I don't care or try to identify with a particular political movement. In other words, I don't give a **** if Republicans are racist pricks or not, it makes no difference to me. I won't care enough to defend them.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

I don't care whether you like their opinion less or more than them.

Nor do I care for what hardcore Marxist want to define their reality as acceptable or not.

These Marxist also choose to define Nazi Germany as a capitalist state, but does it mean they are right? No.

Who are these Marxists of which you speak? And what exactly are they advocating? and please link their quotes in context please.

 

[Paradoxium]

I am taking my time with a little document. It's not like it is an essay assignment for college. I only started it so I get the benefit of indexing any material of mine in the first two post, just incase someone starts this topic.

 

[The Overlord]

I don't care whether you like their opinion less or more than them.

Not their opinions in general but I would assume someone who studies communism all the time would know more about then, someone who doesn't. What makes your opinion on what constitutes communism more valid then theirs'?

Nor do I care for what hardcore Marxist want to define their reality as acceptable or not.

So they don't understand their own ideology or what is at all big conspiracy were communists pretend to dislike Obama in order to trick people.

This is politics 101, any society that has any free enterprise is not communist, period.

It seems like you are trying to turn communism into a bogey man term and ignoring its ethos.

These Marxist also choose to define Nazi Germany as a capitalist state, but does it mean they are right? No.

Except Nazism gets its ethos from a bastardization of Nietzsche and has almost nothing to do Marxism, is Nietzsche a left winger now?

 

[Paradoxium]

I've said nothing about Communist pretending to dislike Obama. A while ago, I said something about progressives maybe being disappointed in him. He might not be a full blown c, rather someone riding their coattails possibly. This latter bit I cited again as a possible scenario in the Honduras Coup thread.

What got me thinking about this is the Honduras situation and how quickly Obama rushed to the defense of Zeyala, when pragmatically there is no benefit, and legally it is full of fail. And Obama is known for his "pragmatism".

And the Nietzsche and Nazi thing is a slippery slope.

Ayn Rand is influenced by Aristotle, but so was Marx. How would you reconcile that? Nevermind, you also ignore my point which is very specific and has nothing to do with ethos, just pure economics. Apples and oranges.

----------------------------------------

So why so defensive all the sudden? I never said you identified with these extremes, I made no assumptions about you guys. But you assume everything about me, not that it matters too much.

 

[The Overlord]

I've said nothing about Communist pretending to dislike Obama. A while ago, I said something about progressives maybe being disappointed in him. He might not be a full blown c, rather someone riding their coattails possibly. This latter bit I cited again as a possible scenario in the Honduras Coup thread.

I was being sarcastic when I said communist are pretending to dislike Obama. Frankly i have seen no evidence that Obama is a communist of any sort, because I'm very strict on how I define certain politic terms.

Considering Marx associates Marxism with things like historical materialism, I think that in order to be a Marxist, you have to believe in such things. I don't think Obama believes in historical materialism.

What got me thinking about this is the Honduras situation and how quickly Obama rushed to the defense of Zeyala, when pragmatically there is no benefit, and legally it is full of fail. And Obama is known for his "pragmatism"..

I paided more attention to the situation in China then one in Honduras, so I haven't read that thread. But how does Obama speaking out against that coup make him any sort of Marxist? Economically I think you can easily argue Obama is a Keynesian and one could argue whether that is good or not. But being a Keynesian is not the same as being Marxist, two different economic ideologies.

And the Nietzsche and Nazi thing is a slippery slope.

Well it was bastardization, but during the war Nazi solders had both a bible and beyond Good and evil on their person (yes that's kinda of contradiction, but they Nazis were an odd bunch.)

Ayn Rand is influenced by Aristotle, but so was Marx. How would you reconcile that? Nevermind, you also ignore my point which is very specific and has nothing to do with ethos, just pure economics. Apples and oranges.

Considering Aristotle existed before concepts like right and left even existed (these are fairly recent concepts), its far easier to apply him in broad manner. Nietzsche is a little more overt in his views then Aristotle.

See its interesting, you hate Marxism, but you make the same mistake they do, obsess too much on the material and economic side of politics and ignore other important factors.

Communism is an economic ethos, which must embraced completely, if you don't embrace it completely you are not a communist, Marx very little room for compromise on this kinda thing. The Manifesto is pretty plain spoken, it pretty outlines all the rules of communism in no uncertain terms.

So why so defensive all the sudden? I never said you identified with these extremes, I made no assumptions about you guys. But you assume everything about me, not that it matters too much.

If someone uses certain hot words: communist, fascist, Nazi, racist, etc, it invites a lot of heat, one has to be extremely careful when deploying such terms.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

"And Alaska -- we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources occurs. ... It's to maximize benefits for Alaskans, not an individual company, not some multinational somewhere, but for Alaskans." --Sarah Palin

 

[Handsome Rob]

don't you get it? they're all the same. Communists,Socialists,Liberals,Nazis. Just different names is all.
they want to take your business,tax you to death,steal your guns,abolish religion,rape your daughters,turn your son gay and burn the flag all while smoking dope and muling an illegal Mexican over the border so they can party on his welfare check.

Don't YOU get it? The Left is part of a spectrum, not a specific group of unified thought on every single issue.

I'm on the right side of the political spectrum. So is Fred Phelps. So what? I don't agree with him. There are people on the right who advocate the overthrow of the federal government. I don't. So what? There are people on the right who want to establish Christianity as the only legal religion in the US. I prefer religious freedom, so I disagree. So what?

We're all on the right, so we share some of the same beliefs; but, we also have some key differences that would prevent me from identifying with their particular group. So someone wants to say that Fred Phelps and other fringe right groups are all on the conservative spectrum, as I am? They're right. And fascists, communists, socialists, liberals, and leftists are all on the left side of the political spectrum--doesn't mean they all agree on everything, nor does it mean that they're interchangeable.

There's no sense in getting your panties in a wad over it, and that's clearly why you started that thread . . . and why it was locked.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

 

[The Overlord]

Don't YOU get it? The Left is part of a spectrum, not a specific group of unified thought on every single issue.

I'm on the right side of the political spectrum. So is Fred Phelps. So what? I don't agree with him. There are people on the right who advocate the overthrow of the federal government. I don't. So what? There are people on the right who want to establish Christianity as the only legal religion in the US. I prefer religious freedom, so I disagree. So what?

We're all on the right, so we share some of the same beliefs; but, we also have some key differences that would prevent me from identifying with their particular group. So someone wants to say that Fred Phelps and other fringe right groups are all on the conservative spectrum, as I am? They're right. And fascists, communists, socialists, liberals, and leftists are all on the left side of the political spectrum--doesn't mean they all agree on everything, nor does it mean that they're interchangeable.

There's no sense in getting your panties in a wad over it, and that's clearly why you started that thread . . . and why it was locked.

Except most people don't think fascists are left wing, including fascists themselves, Mussolini felt that fascism was needed as a something to fight left wing ideologies like communism and felt that fascism was just the perfect marriage between big government and big business. Look at the Spanish Civil war, the fascist were fighting the communists for control over Spain were those fascists left wing?

Here's something I don't like right wingers assuming anything that supports big government is left wing, there many right wing individuals and parties that support big government.

 

[bell110]

What about the racists (small r) that are PART of the right?

What about the similarities between right wing American conservatives and Islamofacists in Iran?

Let’s not forget how upset people got when it was dared suggested that the holocaust museum shooter was a right wing extremist.

Remember how during the last 8 years under Bush that people were certain that America was becoming a fascist dictatorship and it didn’t happen? The same thing is going to happen with Obama, as much as “the sky is falling” crowd wants it to happen, we are not going to become a socialist state.

 

[Paradoxium]

First you are sarcastic, then its "I think he doesn't believe historical materialism". All this without even my posting anything substantive yet. Then on the topic of Zeyala, to which you exclaim you did not read it, then suddenly go on about Keynesianism, wtf? Then you repackage what you cited before about Nietzsche and the Nazi, and do not address the slippery slope fallacy. Nevermind what I had to say on this topic already in a earlier thread.

The best part, you are (already) pulling the: "Let's quote every sentence or two and debunk it with a paragraph, which is prone to creating context problem" schtick.

I think you are incredibly invested idealogically with one of socialism, progressives, communism otherwise you would not be defensive as you are. I have already made it a point I don't believe all progressives to be like this, and here we are. I don't buy the whole, it invites heated response, when I haven't even posted the intended material for you to try to debunk me with.

 

[bell110]

You are trying to construct this as a left and right wing paradigm. Your problem is you assume I am right wing because I do not agree with progressives.

I actually have problems with the Republicans, Democrats, and Libertarians. I don't care or try to identify with a particular political movement. In other words, I don't give a **** if Republicans are racist pricks or not, it makes no difference to me. I won't care enough to defend them.

This is your thread, you set up the paradigm.

And for someone who doesn't care, you seemed eager to argue with me that Nazism was a left wing ideology.