The Uncanny Bought/Thought - 12-14-11

[JewishHobbit]

Well, here we are again with another bought thought and another stack of comics to review. I dubbed this one "Uncanny" for Uncanny X-Force, which brought the conclusion to the Dark Angel event... but did it live up to the hype? We'll see when I reach that one in my stack.

Avengers Academy #23 - I told myself I was done with this book because of the high prices and all that jazz but I bought it anyway. I had to read how Gage did with Laura. So I read it and honestly, I wasn't impressed. She feels like the same old "I kill people, I am a machine" Laura that she was when she joined the New X-Men around 2006 or so (right after House of M, whenever that was). She has grown so dramatically since then and Gage either missed it or didn't get it through in this issue well enough. I might pick up the next issue to see if it improves but if it doesn't then I'm off. I've already read two long plots of Laura going from "I only kill and don't get along with people" to accepting and finding herself. It was done fairly well in New X-Men and astonishingly well in X-23's ongoing. I don't care to sit through it yet again. She's a great character Marvel, move beyond this one stupid plot. Between his depiction of Laura here and the mediocre to slightly above mediocre Astonishing arc, I'm starting to wonder if Gage on X-Men Legacy is a good thing. Hopefully I'll change my mind in a few issues.

Other than Laura though the rest of the issue, specifically with Reptil, was fairly interesting. That could probably lead to interesting plots and his mention of X-23 not going well makes me think her tenior on the team will be limited.

Avengers: X-Sanction #1 (of 4) - Eh, I wasn't impressed. This felt like Loeb brainless run on Hulk and I wasn't a fan. I like that Blaquesmith shows up though how he got in the far future is beyond me. I don't like how Cable is portrayed here but his reasonings for it at least makes sense. And as always, I'm taken out of the story by McGuinness's art. I know people like it but I just don't. This was about as I expected it though so I wasn't too let down. I'm more eager for this to wrap up and for Avengers vs. X-Men to start. I was never really interested in this.

Uncanny X-Force #18 - The Dark Angel Saga, the conclusion... and man was it good!!! It was done very well but I do wish the ending was a little more conclusive. It was fully wrapped up but the final line with Warren made it feel more like a "to be continued" than a "the end." I think Psylocke shined most in this issue though Deathlok had a pretty cool moment. I'm very interested to see what becomes of Genesis and Archangel's child with Pestilance. I hated seeing AoA Sunfire die since he was always one of my favorite AoA characters but at least it was done well, and the same with Iceman. He was such a prominant threat the past few issues, I wish he had a bigger death but it made sense.

I will boldly declare this the best story to come out of Marvel in the past decade... easily. It can only be rivaled by Slott's ASM issues following Marla Jameson's death, but this was so much better. I have never been so excited for a comic. The last time I remember being anywhere near this excited was the conclusion to Onslaught so that's telling you something.

Easily the best book Marvel puts out and if you're not reading it you're robbing yourselves. Get the trades or back issues, start at issue 1, and thank me later.

New Avengers #19 - This was a decent issue. We learn that Viper and Gorgon are both waiting Norman's insanity out to take control of Hammer and that they don't much like each other. It seems that Victoria Hand really is working for Norman still and that Daredevil is picking up on it. And Squirrel Girl has developed a crush on DD for saving her life during Fear Itself. It was a good issue though not quite as much of a development as I'd have liked.

My only beef with it isn't really founded I don't think. I don't like that Skaar is still shown having daddy issues but I guess there's room for that at the end of the Incredible Hulks arc when he left the title to stay in the Savage Land. There seemed to be a little tension there so his still having problems with Hulk can make sense here.

All in all, good book still. One of my favorites.

Batwoman #4 - This was a good issue but I could have done without the not-so-subtle lesbian sex scene. Not that it was bad, I just prefer to keep sex out of the comics I read. But as far the story it was very good. Flamebird strikes out on her own and is nearly killed, then accidentally gives up Batwoman's secret identity to the people hunting her. Curious where this goes. As always, Williams' art is amazing, one of the best artists in comics in my opinion.

Batman & Robin #4 - I don't know why but this book is just boring me. The villain isn't interesting at all and I'm just not feeling the Bruce/Damian dynamic. I loved Dick and Damian and became a fan of them both because of it. Here... I'm just not feeling it. I love Snyder's take on Batman and am only buying this book for Damian's involvement but I'm bored. Tomasi is a great but something needs to change here. I'm hoping to stick through this first arc and see what the next one has to offer but it's getting harder and harder to justify buying this book. It might be one of the next ones I drop.

I like the dog though

Green Lantern #4 - This is about on par with the rest of the series. It's interesting and good enough to keep me coming back but I do feel it's kinda lost steam. I LOVED it until Blackest Night. When that finished it dropped to just liked it and it's maintained that throughout. I'm worried that I'm going to get very bored with it before long as well. I've already dropped every other GL title, this is my last one. Hopefully things will pick up though. I'm looking forward to the Indigo arc. I'm fairly certain that Indigo (the main one) is the partner the prisoner in this issue is refering to.


Best and Worst of the Week

Best: Uncanny X-Force #18 - Yeah, this was a no brainer. Go buy the trades.

Worst: Batman & Robin #4 - It was just boring. I found myself skimming at places and hoping the ending would get here already. I shouldn't feel that way about a comic I'm reading and I'm not going to tolerate it as long as I usually do. Things are too expensive and if I don't love it I'm not buying it.

 

[RockSP]

Anybody else's shop not get comics in this week? Guy I go to has been shorted for the past 3 weeks, this week a ridiculous 62 different items (mostly comics) He got no marvel books at all.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I have had no problems with my comic book shop.

 

[runawayboulder]

AoA Iceman lived. He's seen in the transport ship with Dark Beast and the rest that escaped.

 

[Dread]

A short week, but not an uneventful one. Sadly, I needed 3 reviews for Examiner purposes, so I had to sell out a little. Spoilers ahoy!

DREAD'S BOUGHT/THOUGHT FOR 12/14/11:

AVENGERS ACADEMY #23: The old quality stalwart of this column finally returns to the top spot! In fact, the last time an issue of AVENGERS ACADEMY was a Book Of The Week was back at the end of September. However, virtually every issue is always worthy of a review here as well as often a contender for the top spot for a critical reason; writer Christos Gage has launched and crafted one of the best team franchise titles in Marvel Comics right now, and perhaps in comics, period. Flanked by solid art teams, this series continues to be a brilliant mixture of brand new characters mixed in with older characters who aren't the most well known or most popular compared to others, but who always get treated well. This is the third issue of the "bold new direction" for the Avengers Academy. Having established that the program worked for at least five out of the first six "high risk" superhuman teenage students assigned there, the school has expanded it's student roster to include virtually any teenage costumed character who isn't already part of an X-Men roster. To this end, the series' latest guest star is literally thrown at the reader on the cover; X-23. An immigrant from the "X-MEN EVOLUTION" animated TV series circa 2003, as well as fresh off a canceled ongoing series, Laura Kinney is the latest student to join the eclectic cadets at the Academy. While she doesn't need combat training, and some could see it as a stunt to try to spark attention, X-23 actually fits the premise well. Cloned from Wolverine and raised from the cradle by evil scientists to be a mindless assassin, X-23 is struggling to evolve from her roots, while at the same time not apologizing for them so much. Despite her violent tendencies and nearly non-existent emotions, X-23 proves to fit in quite well with the core cadets. Finesse, for example, undergoes similar difficulties with emotions. As Hazmat finds out, X-23 could be fitting in TOO well.

There are other things going on within this issue than X-23, which serves it well by not giving the appearance of grinding the story to a halt to cater to a better known guest star. Sadly, one of these stories was spoiled "accidentally" by editor-in-chief Axel Alonso at the end of November, with Marvel officially confirming it a week later. Suffice it to say, Striker "comes out" within this issue, unloading virtually all of his baggage upon Julie Power/Lightspeed (formerly of POWER PACK and THE LONERS), due to rumors about her sexual orientation as well. While there are moments where their scene lays things on a little thick, it is a successful moment for the series overall. It helps establish sympathy for Striker as well as get a handle on why he has done certain things in the past, which helps since he is often a jerk. The scene also quietly enforces the idea that Lightspeed is actually a somewhat well known and experienced heroine of her own from her Power Pack days, and thus is someone a less experienced hero might open up to. Such things should be little surprise from Gage, who single handledly reformed Tigra from being a "furry fetish" swimsuit model into a more well rounded, and respectable, heroine. The issue is narrated by Reptil, who hasn't been who he seems lately. He's switched minds with his adult counterpart from an alternate future; quite when and why hasn't been established. "Future Reptil" is thus doing the usual ploy that time traveling antagonists do; mess with things to make sure their timeline works out. This issue, at the very least, establishes that "Future Reptil" is not a megalomaniac and is actually conflicted with his task. To this end he forms an alliance with a very obscure mutant villain - so obscure that his last appearances included issues of ROM from the 1980's and X-MAN from the late 1990's. Unlike other villains, who usually have been "threats of the week" such as Ruby Thursday, Mentallo, and even Korvac, this one seems to be a more subtle and longer term subplot, which is something that can only aid the series as it reaches its second year.

The art is by Tom Raney, who has shared regular art chores with Sean Chen since issue nine, when launch artist Mike McKone departed the book. Chen himself departed the book last issue, and Tom Grummet is set to come aboard the series next month. Also joining the art team this issue is colorist Chris Sotomayor, who has done colors for NOMAD: GIRL WITHOUT A WORLD and YOUNG ALLIES. Scott Hanna remains a regular Ol' Faithful on inks. While Raney naturally does well with action sequences, he also is terrific with showcasing subtle facial reactions, which Gage's script gives him many times in this issue alone. From X-23's welcome to Reptil's conflictions to Striker and Lightspeed's key scene, it all looks stellar. If there is one caveat, it is that X-23's stilted speech leads her to offer one obligatory exposition speech too many and makes her seem boring to read. It could be this is a flaw of the character herself, which may be why her ongoing series failed; by the end it relied on supporting characters like Gambit and Jubilee, or guest stars like the Future Foundation. The riddle will be how long X-23 lasts on the series.

AVENGERS ACADEMY remains one of the best team books Marvel is publishing, whether in terms of pace or diverse characters or faithful use of older figures. With the better selling X-23 canceled next month and sales figures for this series finally falling south of 23k for the first time this year (circa November), some fans may fret about the long term health of this series. So long as it lasts, its fans are in for a brilliant ride.

BATTLE SCARS #2: It is interesting to have this ship the same week as an issue of AVENGERS ACADEMY, as this is another book that features a brand new character alongside some older stalwarts. This spin-off series from FEAR ITSELF centers around Sgt. Marcus Johnson, a man who is suddenly at the center of a struggle between SHIELD and a reclusive villain who hires gangs of mercenaries to kill him. Scripted by Chris Yost, co-plotted by Cullen Bunn and Matt Fraction (which means Yost is working from their notes), drawn by Scot Eaton, inked by Andrew Hennessy, and colored by Paul Mounts, this is very much a mini-series crafted by committee. Despite that, the tone and voice of the series remains consistent, and Johnson helps act as the point of view character for the black ops Marvel Universe in a way. While he is saved from Taskmaster by Captain America, Quake, and SHIELD, Johnson quickly tires of being in "protective custody" and fed half-truths and lies about who he is and why his mother was murdered. Meanwhile, the mysterious wheelchair bound "evil mastermind" in a "secret location" continues to send mercenaries after Johnson, in this case Scorpio (a villain who historically was related to Nick Fury). While Quake's real name is Daisy Johnson, any relation between her and Marcus is not stated. One could imagine being related to a high ranking SHIELD super-operative would be a reason for many forces to be interested in Marcus. However, it would call into question why such forces have decided to focus on Johnson now, after he's a battle hardened Army Ranger who can out-fight four SHIELD agents, instead of when he was younger. It may be something else, but quite what is no closer to being revealed now than it was last issue. That may be fine for the long haul, although as even Marvel's editors realize what a tough sell this mini series is, this series may have been wiser being shorter and less decompressed in that regard.

For the record, BATTLE SCARS #1 sold over 32k copies within the Top 70 in November 2011's sales charts, which means by issue three it could be out of the Top 100 entirely. Thus, wouldn't it have been better to make it four issues, or god forbid three, instead of five? While hardcore Marvel fans may be interested in a new character involved in a conspiracy like this, more mainstream fans may not if it takes too long to get to the "nitty gritty". This continues to be a very solid mini-series thus far, and Johnson is proving to be a perfectly engaging lead character. He's a soldier and has no intention to be part of the spandex crowd, which is the point. He sees himself as existing outside that world, and it is amusing seeing his perspective upon it (such as soldiers believing "when SHIELD got involved, that's when you knew you were in trouble"). For those less patient, Johnson could appear generic in a market that demands "awesome or bust" for customer dollars, and it will be curious how far Marvel is willing to go with this character. Historically, the answer is "not very far", which complicates the process. For the moment, BATTLE SCARS remains an engaging read with a brand new character for those who decided to take the plunge on something new.

AVENGERS: X-SANCTION #1: In a relatively slow week, this is what passes for a big launch at Marvel for this week. Promoted as a prelude to the AVENGERS VS. X-MEN event for next year, this four issue series from writer Jeph Loeb and artist Ed McGuinness, the creative team behind HULK and WORLD'S FINEST. To say that Loeb's star has fallen from his prime is an understatement; his recent Marvel works have usually ranged from atrocious to merely simplistically crude. His ULTIMATUM mini series almost single handedly killed off the Ultimate imprint, and he happened to be writing NBC's "HEROES" right about when it started to devolve. To top it all off, this series boasts the return of Cable, who has been dead 14 months and who is a time-traveler, and thus the easiest class of character to resurrect next to a robot, god, or clone.

How did Cable survive his explosive death scene in SECOND COMING? He wound up in "the far future" in which everything is dead but, conveniently, his old pal Blaquesmith who insists things got this bad because Cable's adoptive daughter Hope wasn't around to save the world. Hope is seen as the reincarnation of Phoenix and is capable of re-activating the dormant X-gene in mutants, albeit one at a time. Tasked with 24 hours to live via his techno-organic virus, Cable is targeting those Blaquesmith blames for removing Hope from the future - the Avengers. To this end, Cable targets the Avengers in the middle of a random battle against the Lethal Legion and selects Falcon and Captain America as his first "casualties of war". As Ed McGuinness' strength is in action sequences, half the issue consists of battle; either the opening Avengers brawl or a struggle between Cap and Cable.

Overall, this is actually a perfectly acceptable start to a four issue story; it provides a lot of action and gets out the premise of the series within 20 pages. There are, however, flaws within this package. A minor one is some disregard for continuity; Radioactive Man had been a Thunderbolt and state sponsored Chinese hero in the recent past, but now is in a random prison break scene just to provide an easy joke for Red Hulk. Then there's the borderline stereotypical bit in which Falcon, the lone "black guy" within the team, being the first one who is taken out. The battle between Cap and Cable and its end result will perhaps spark message room debate. The cliffhanger is ineffective as nobody can seriously expect Steve Rogers to die again here, and not in something written by Ed Brubaker. Finally, while the logic of Cable's motivation is simple, it has a bit of an amusing flaw. He is taking on the Avengers because he thinks they will harm his adoptive daughter and doom the future. Yet when he asks which people are responsible, he is simply told "the Avengers". Thus, Cable is "coming after every single one of" them. A recent count suggests there are at least 55 superheroes who are active or former members of the Avengers, and that doesn't even count a few "honorary" ones that are still around. How in the world does Cable believe to actually be able to kill over 50 superheroes in "18 hours, maybe less"? Especially if he plans to do it by taking them on with guns one by one? Imagine if you asked which Kardashian was responsible for ruining the future and the best answer you got was "all of them"? Maybe the techno-organic virus really is addling his mind this time. Despite all this, this issue was better than some truly "obligatory" material like the average FEAR ITSELF or AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE issue, even if only by a pinch. This 20 page an issue series is $3.99 for little reason other than greed, but at the very least this isn't as offensive as it could have been - thus far.

 

[Dread]

I had to read how Gage did with Laura. So I read it and honestly, I wasn't impressed. She feels like the same old "I kill people, I am a machine" Laura that she was when she joined the New X-Men around 2006 or so (right after House of M, whenever that was). She has grown so dramatically since then and Gage either missed it or didn't get it through in this issue well enough. I might pick up the next issue to see if it improves but if it doesn't then I'm off. I've already read two long plots of Laura going from "I only kill and don't get along with people" to accepting and finding herself. It was done fairly well in New X-Men and astonishingly well in X-23's ongoing. I don't care to sit through it yet again. She's a great character Marvel, move beyond this one stupid plot. Between his depiction of Laura here and the mediocre to slightly above mediocre Astonishing arc, I'm starting to wonder if Gage on X-Men Legacy is a good thing. Hopefully I'll change my mind in a few issues.

For the record, AVENGERS ACADEMY is still $2.99. Although more "important" books being more expensive also shrinks the budget to the detriment of books like this.

As someone who has never been interested in X-23 - not even when she first appeared on TV in 2003 - I have an honest question. You express frustration that Marvel cannot move beyond "this one stupid plot" with Laura. My question is; is there anything else to do with X-23 besides that one stupid plot?

X-23 was created for a few reasons. For immediate TV reasons, she was created because Kid's WB didn't like when "X-MEN EVOLUTION" did focus episodes on adult characters - not even Wolverine - without attaching a teenage member of the cast alongside them. Hence why Storm gained a nephew (Spyke) and why Wolverine gained a clone. Afterward Craig Kyle and Chris Yost would go on and on about how original X-23 was - and next to Daken, she is - but at the time her existence was purely to allow them to do Wolverine episodes while adhering to a network's demand. In fairness, crude TV reality was also the basis for creating Firestar in "SPIDER-MAN AND HIS AMAZING FRIENDS" in 1982; NBC wanted a female to the cast to appeal to girls, and Human Torch's rights at the time were tied up and didn't allow him to appear there. But once X-23 made the leap to comics, other reasons for her creation became clear. She was intended as a bit of a metaphor of what Wolverine would have been like had Weapon X gotten to him sooner - if they made a living weapon that literally had nothing else. Atop of that, Wolverine had reached a point where he was no longer a wild card loner struggling against his inner rage as much who even allies didn't know if they could trust; certainly by 2003 and especially now, as he runs his own school. Thus, X-23 was also there to cover ground that Wolverine could no longer cover due to sheer experience, as well as to do so in a newer way. Thus, the "one stupid plot" is essentially the plot that X-23 was made for.

The dilemma, and my honest question, stems from this. Without this plot, IS there anything more to X-23 besides being a stabby chick? In X-23's now canceled title, it was perhaps telling that the series relied so heavily on it's supporting cast (Gambit) or on reoccurring guest stars of the arc, from Jubilee to the Future Foundation. Usually when a series does nothing but have a train of guest stars fill pages and the star is lost to the cast, it is a sign of a weak concept. Now, X-23 as a character is arguably difficult to have as a lead without such things - she is a quiet, emotionless character of few words and more actions. Offering issues and issues of stories where she barely has 5 lines across 20 pages would ware thin and read too quickly, even if it might be accurate and showcase a particular artist. I'm not dismissing that Gage handled X-23 "to type" in this issue, but I feel he had little choice because X-23 has only one type, and one story. If X-23 moves on, she becomes a generic heroine who sheds her core concept because that concept was simplistic to begin with. After all, if X-23 becomes sassy and gains a sense of humor, all she'd be is a clone of Jubilee or Kitty Pryde (or to a lessor degree, Amiko, Logan's oft forgotten adopted daughter). If she remains emotionless she remains boring. I have no doubt she can do the "stupid plot" and has, but is there more to her? Or is all she can do is appear in random battles or guest starring stints where other characters have to do the talking for her? You mention she's "come into her own". Who, exactly, is Laura Kinney? And if she is anyone, why in the world does she continue to accept the codename given to her by the monsters who made her? That's like if Wolverine continued to call himself Weapon X or even "The Animal".

I did like her little scene with Mettle, but on the whole I do agree Laura was a little boring here. But that didn't bother me because she's always boring for me. I didn't like Gage's debut issue of AXM enough to continue on, so I do hope he fares better on XML. I'd argue X-23 was one of the most boring and simplistic original heroines Marvel has created in the 21st century, only I have seen some more irritating ones crop up since.

 

[JewishHobbit]

AoA Iceman lived. He's seen in the transport ship with Dark Beast and the rest that escaped.

YES! I missed that!

 

[JewishHobbit]

For the record, AVENGERS ACADEMY is still $2.99. Although more "important" books being more expensive also shrinks the budget to the detriment of books like this.

Oh I know, and the lower price is part of the reason why I keep coming back to it. This is definately a case of higher priced comics snuffing out lower ones. The ones I'm more interested in are unfortunately $4 so to make room for them I have to get rid of the lesser priced ones that I'm less interested in.

It sucks.

As someone who has never been interested in X-23 - not even when she first appeared on TV in 2003 - I have an honest question. You express frustration that Marvel cannot move beyond "this one stupid plot" with Laura. My question is; is there anything else to do with X-23 besides that one stupid plot?

Absolutely, but for now, in the early stages of her character you can still stick with this plot but advance it and continue it. When she was created she was an emotionless feral girl who killed. Kyle and Yost took that and developed her into a woman with some emotion who was learning how to cope with other people her age. She discovered affection (for her fellow students and particularly Hellion) and what it means to sacrifice and believe in a larger cause (in X-Force saving everyone from the Legacy Virus, etc.).

Then Liu took it even further and had her begin questioning the existence of a soul and if she has one as a clone. While further developing Laura's love of other people, she also had her find and come to terms with herself as a person. She had Laura develop friendships with characters outside of the X-Universe and learn how to be a girl her own age. She had to learn how to come to grips with the wrongs of her past. Essentially, she grew up.

Gage could take that and show her as being further along than the Academy kids and be someone she can look up to, a mentor. She is still on that path but she has come a long way and could easily play the part of tudor similar to what Lightspeed is doing, perhaps for the more disturbed students. That seems to be the next logical step for her. Bring in Hellion as well and have the two of them revialed by the other students and have Laura earn their trust through the good deeds she does now instead of letting her past define her. Hellion is also a troubled teen, bordering on good and bad mutant. He'd fit right in and would easily clash heads with Striker and others. Laura could be the go between that teaches Hellion that there's good in him like there was good in her and the other kids can learn from that... or something along those lines. That's something that hasn't been done with her yet... the mentor that's moving forward with her life instead of brooding about her past.

And for the record, X-23 had lots of guest stars, yes, but it all made sense for the plot. First off she was dealing with delimas with the X-Men and then left them to find herself apart from the X (sound familiar) and Gambit tagged along to look after her. Her and Gambit made a great team and it gave her someone to bounce off of (and he wasn't a major factor in the book the whole time, just for an arc or two). Then she had the crossover with Daken, which was to be expected, and it delt with the concept of her having a brother. Then came Jubilee and it was the former sidekick of Wolverine who had also become dark and the analogy was there for Laura to ponder about herself. Then she met up with the FF and that's where she began to learn more about herself through the encouragement of Sue Richards. The next arc still included the FF as they helped her out by trusting her to babysit the kids (which isn't turning out well) and it also guest stars Hellion, tying up some plotlines from the first arc and from New X-Men.

Yes, a lot of guest stars but Liu said from early on that she wanted to interweave Laura into the greater Marvel Universe so that she can find herself and her place in the world. That was planned before sale problems came into the picture. And it worked wonder for the plot. It was done very well.

You mention she's "come into her own". Who, exactly, is Laura Kinney? And if she is anyone, why in the world does she continue to accept the codename given to her by the monsters who made her? That's like if Wolverine continued to call himself Weapon X or even "The Animal".

Honestly, I don't recall Laura refering to herself as X-23 in her entire solo. I can't remember the last time she ever did. The reason she took the name Laura was to move away from the label and become her own person. She is Laura in everything but cover credits.

I did like her little scene with Mettle, but on the whole I do agree Laura was a little boring here. But that didn't bother me because she's always boring for me. I didn't like Gage's debut issue of AXM enough to continue on, so I do hope he fares better on XML. I'd argue X-23 was one of the most boring and simplistic original heroines Marvel has created in the 21st century, only I have seen some more irritating ones crop up since.

The scene with Mettle was alright. It was probably the best scene of the book and if it was preceeded by the "I kill people I don't get along with people" scene I'd probably be more optimistic.

Gage's AXM arc got better with the second and third issue but it was still about average (which was fantastic compared to Fraction's Uncanny X-Men).

And no wonder she's boring for you... you've not read anything good with her. Didn't read New X-Men, X-Force, or X-23. Did you read either of her origin minis? Those were also good and the first things that made me actually like her. I didn't like her at all in NYX or Uncanny X-Men. She was alright in the Captain Universe oneshot she was in but there wasn't much to it really. The story was just good.

She took a step back in X-Force following New X-Men but that was also a bit within the plot and she did still move forward in some aspects (as listed above). That's why Liu doing the similar starting point for her was acceptable. But now Gage seems to be taking her back again, even further now than when Liu started, and there's not any reasoning for it. I think THAT'S what's bothering me about it.

 

[Dread]

Oh I know, and the lower price is part of the reason why I keep coming back to it. This is definately a case of higher priced comics snuffing out lower ones. The ones I'm more interested in are unfortunately $4 so to make room for them I have to get rid of the lesser priced ones that I'm less interested in.

It sucks.

Definitely. The "big books" I get which are $4.99 are AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, CAPTAIN AMERICA, FANTASTIC FOUR (I'll drop FF since the kids usually bug me), and usually whatever big mini or two Marvel is pushing. Remender is making me want to jump back on SECRET AVENGERS and that was another $3.99 book I ditched at the end of the Spencer run and didn't miss (and wished I'd ditched sooner). But I know for you it's worse because you buy the core X-books and Avengers books which are also $3.99. Marvel's even abandoned the premise of "all our $3.99 books will be 22 pages" excuse and it's just the price point for big books out of either greed, to cover generous creator contracts, or both.

In fairness, part of the "greed" could be marching orders from on high by Marvel CEO Ike Perlmutter, the reclusive billionaire who runs the company who by second hand tales makes Mr. Burns look generous. Horror stories include Marvel's offices having only one bathroom and their HR department being a single employee to pinch pennies (and that was before the layoffs and cancellation sprees). Part of me wonders if Disney would have been better off in 2009 by investing a little extra to replace him with someone more...how do I put it...sane? Forward thinking? If they were willing to invest over $4 billion to own Marvel outright, would a few hundred million to buy out the Mad Tycoon and replace him with someone who, I don't know, wanted to grow a market or innovate been too much? Or did Disney really just do it for the film, TV & merchandise licenses? But now I've digressed.

Absolutely, but for now, in the early stages of her character you can still stick with this plot but advance it and continue it. When she was created she was an emotionless feral girl who killed. Kyle and Yost took that and developed her into a woman with some emotion who was learning how to cope with other people her age. She discovered affection (for her fellow students and particularly Hellion) and what it means to sacrifice and believe in a larger cause (in X-Force saving everyone from the Legacy Virus, etc.).

Then Liu took it even further and had her begin questioning the existence of a soul and if she has one as a clone. While further developing Laura's love of other people, she also had her find and come to terms with herself as a person. She had Laura develop friendships with characters outside of the X-Universe and learn how to be a girl her own age. She had to learn how to come to grips with the wrongs of her past. Essentially, she grew up.

Gage could take that and show her as being further along than the Academy kids and be someone she can look up to, a mentor. She is still on that path but she has come a long way and could easily play the part of tudor similar to what Lightspeed is doing, perhaps for the more disturbed students. That seems to be the next logical step for her. Bring in Hellion as well and have the two of them revialed by the other students and have Laura earn their trust through the good deeds she does now instead of letting her past define her. Hellion is also a troubled teen, bordering on good and bad mutant. He'd fit right in and would easily clash heads with Striker and others. Laura could be the go between that teaches Hellion that there's good in him like there was good in her and the other kids can learn from that... or something along those lines. That's something that hasn't been done with her yet... the mentor that's moving forward with her life instead of brooding about her past.

And for the record, X-23 had lots of guest stars, yes, but it all made sense for the plot. First off she was dealing with delimas with the X-Men and then left them to find herself apart from the X (sound familiar) and Gambit tagged along to look after her. Her and Gambit made a great team and it gave her someone to bounce off of (and he wasn't a major factor in the book the whole time, just for an arc or two). Then she had the crossover with Daken, which was to be expected, and it delt with the concept of her having a brother. Then came Jubilee and it was the former sidekick of Wolverine who had also become dark and the analogy was there for Laura to ponder about herself. Then she met up with the FF and that's where she began to learn more about herself through the encouragement of Sue Richards. The next arc still included the FF as they helped her out by trusting her to babysit the kids (which isn't turning out well) and it also guest stars Hellion, tying up some plotlines from the first arc and from New X-Men.

Yes, a lot of guest stars but Liu said from early on that she wanted to interweave Laura into the greater Marvel Universe so that she can find herself and her place in the world. That was planned before sale problems came into the picture. And it worked wonder for the plot. It was done very well.

It could be argued that the scene with Mettle was a sign of X-23 assuming a mentor role for some people, or at least a role where she can relate with experience. Finesse also appears to have things in common with her, from the preference of lethal weapons to having a "father figure" who has been a threat and manipulated by evil people in the past. Then again, the issue uses Future Reptil to lay out the foundation of X-23's tenure on the book being short. Perhaps she is getting a relaunch?

In fairness, X-23 seems to be talking more than she did in, say, 2005 or so when she first appeared in Robert Kirkman's MARVEL TEAM-UP run. Her dialogue is just stiff and she rattles off like Exposition Lass, which would be fine if Finesse didn't also talk like that. Their dialogue avoided being interchangeable by THIS MUCH. I can understand X-23 wondering about soul issues given the X-Men mercilessly slaughter Mr. Sinister's Marauders because they are endlessly cloned and thus don't "count". I suppose if I wanted to stretch for some potential future stories, X-23 could have an interesting issue guest-starring in SCARLET SPIDER with Kaine, another clone of a major character struggling for identity. Or she could interact with no end of all those robot characters who wonder if they're "real" because they were assembled from scraps instead of born. Which they're not, but it's part of their subplot. X-23 could team up with Kaine and the last of the MVP clones and they could be the Clone Rangers, fighting for identity by punching criminals a lot.

It is a pipe dream to imagine Hellion joining the team. He's been mangled, literally, beyond recognition from the character who once was a big deal in ACADEMY X's heyday. A lot of those characters, who had loads of potential, have mostly been killed off, tormented, or forgotten aside for Anole and Rockslide, and even they're bush-leaguers. But the ghetto-ization of X-Men characters from more recent era's is another discussion. To a degree X-23 suffers from the endless torment that surrounds the X-Men franchise. Any character even remotely positive is either given nothing to do for 25 years (Iceman), killed outright, or eventually twisted and tormented into being a brooding anti-hero like every other single X-Men character (Colossus, as Cluggernaut, is the most recent example). Not even Cyclops, who long was a jerk who did the tactical thing over the compassionate thing, was good enough - he had to be twisted until he is practically Magneto in a visor. The fact that Magneto is literally Cyclops' "Good Cop" says it all. Ironically, because of his real life cross media popularity, Wolverine is suddenly becoming the Friendliest Mass Murdering Teacher Ever. I see it as Shrek Syndrome - where a character gains their Real Life popularity within their Fictional Universe, with the end result being a loss of what made them edgy in the first place. Spider-Man is THIS CLOSE to that, but Slott wisely has enough people dislike him so that J.J. is not the only crank in town.

A train of guest stars NEVER helps a book. The "introducing them to the universe" thing is a crock no fan actually buys. Marvel have produced a culture in which if it doesn't happen in a "big" book, it doesn't count. Unless it was the central focus of UNCANNY X-MEN for 7 years, many mainstream buyers won't go for it and I can imagine that may have caused X-23's book to lose sales. It gives the impression of a lack of focus. Even if it's not true, there are so many comics out there that mere impressions are enough. I mean, impressions are why AVENGERS ACADEMY is struggling to sell above cancellation range, or why GRIFTER is now outselling DEADPOOL. SPIDER-GIRL suffered from a similar lack of focus (is she Spidey's sidekick? Part of the FF? Why is she fighting castoff Spidey rogues? Why is the Red Hulk a key part of her universe?) and that likely aided in that book being DOA in sales. And that was a series I liked.

The fact that X-23 DESPERATELY NEEDS bombastic characters or guest stars to carry her I think spells out her problem. She's a difficult character to handle in that way. If you actually have her, I don't know, get a life and not need to be angst ridden, she's now out of character. But if you write her as being shy and quiet and a woman of action, you need someone there to do the talking bits and by virtue of that, they give the impression of hogging. If X-23 has grown up, then I think her title would have been stronger if she was actually developing her own life and not doing a round robin of guest bits with franchises that outsell her like FF. Really, what does she have to do with the FF? The same thing Spider-Girl had to do with the Red Hulk - nothing. It comes off as forced.

Still, there could be other forces at play for X-23's solo title. It was selling better than other uncanceled books, including AVENGERS ACADEMY (albeit not by much), and THUNDERBOLTS. Maybe Liu couldn't handle both that and ASTONISHING X-MEN and Marvel decided to cut bait on a Bottom 100 chart feeder? Who knows.

Honestly, I don't recall Laura refering to herself as X-23 in her entire solo. I can't remember the last time she ever did. The reason she took the name Laura was to move away from the label and become her own person. She is Laura in everything but cover credits.

Then it is time Marvel actually found some stones and gave her an original codename. X-23 isn't a name, it's a serial bar code. It is literally a more generic name for an X-Men character than "X-MAN" (or Adam-X the X-Treme). Which worked fine under her original premise of being, basically, Logan's worst nightmare. But if she has truly grown up from that, then the company has to actually have some testes and show they mean it. Laura needs to figure her own codename and then Marvel has to trade mark it and be willing to sell it as hard as when she was named after the bottom of a box of soda. Maybe then after 7-8 years fans will realize Marvel is "serious" about her and support her more. I mean, it isn't unheard of. Marvel ran with Arana for years before being willing to re-name her Spider-Girl. Sure, that's more to do with wanting to cling to a trademark for longer - especially with the MC2 version canceled - but similar.

Along these lines, it's past time Carol Danvers called herself Captain Marvel. She's long outlasted Mar-Vell and is the closest thing Marvel has to a big solo heroine, now that they've squandered Storm and She-Hulk the last few years.

The scene with Mettle was alright. It was probably the best scene of the book and if it was preceeded by the "I kill people I don't get along with people" scene I'd probably be more optimistic.

Gage's AXM arc got better with the second and third issue but it was still about average (which was fantastic compared to Fraction's Uncanny X-Men).

And no wonder she's boring for you... you've not read anything good with her. Didn't read New X-Men, X-Force, or X-23. Did you read either of her origin minis? Those were also good and the first things that made me actually like her. I didn't like her at all in NYX or Uncanny X-Men. She was alright in the Captain Universe oneshot she was in but there wasn't much to it really. The story was just good.

She took a step back in X-Force following New X-Men but that was also a bit within the plot and she did still move forward in some aspects (as listed above). That's why Liu doing the similar starting point for her was acceptable. But now Gage seems to be taking her back again, even further now than when Liu started, and there's not any reasoning for it. I think THAT'S what's bothering me about it.

NYX I wonder if it did more harm than good for X-23's image. I've seen quite a few people online dismiss her because she once worked as a prostitute, which is by itself all sorts of cliched. It's strictly in the past now, but it can be hard to escape. And her being on X-Force was a very bad idea which all but implies how clueless the X-Men are with helping people sometimes.

As for Gage, I stand by my statement that I have never read anything from him that was bad or below average in quality, according to my standards. However, I can say I have read some average stories from him, that AXM debut being one of them, especially at $3.99. X-MEN: LEGACY will have some more slack because it is $2.99, but if it is looking dull I will likely not make it an arc. I'm only on it for Gage, Rogue, and Iceman really. And since I expect Iceman to do about as much as Justice did in AA (because no writer has him do anything), that's really for Gage and Rogue.

The Iceman stuff isn't a digression. Part of his dilemma is he is a character who has never grown up, been allowed to evolve and move on beyond his finite window of demeanor. He's been the stock funny dude since 1963. Johnny Storm has suffered from that, which is why Hickman is basically ripping off PLANET HULK to try to correct that. X-23 I think suffers that dilemma as well, as do a lot of younger characters. Marvel as a company is not ready to move her past a specific limited plot point, because they sell her as a brand within it. X-23 the mute angst ridden killing machine is what everyone knows of her, so she has to remain there, forever. I mean, Peter David did a lot of interesting things with the Hulk, but has ANY of it pierced the mainstream? No; they still see him as "Rawr HULK SMASH PUNY MAN!" DC has done everything but have Aquaman skull-**** Batman to try to make him seem cool to the audience after SUPERFRIENDS and it WILL NEVER WORK; the mainstream will always and forever see him as the lamer who talks to fish. If Marvel is not willing to alter a trademark to establish Laura's evolution as a character - past being X-23 and into being her own metahuman being - then how can they expect editors or writers or fans to do so? Because they won't, and never will, unless Marvel gets serious in that regard. Because without it, X-23 still seems like a slapdash of concepts dusted off from Wolverine circa 1974 cobbled together to fit a TV network's demands while on a schedule, and if X-23 is past that, then Marvel needs to foster it. X-23 doesn't even work as a Wolverine legacy, because this isn't DC and there's no way she'd ever replace him. If a legacy cannot eventually gain equal standing to their mentor, then they're useless, and may as well not exist. That's why nobody cares about any of Batman's spare sidekicks after Nightwing, and why Batwoman - someone who has refused to be part of the family and strikes out on her own - has instead captured their imagination.

You have to have interest in a character to seek out better things they're in. Nobody unless they have money to burn wastes cash reading about characters they don't care for, especially if it's on a book by creators they don't chase. Dan Slott, a writer I obviously prefer on many things and usually chase on virtually anything he writes at Marvel, couldn't get me to read SHE-HULK, because I don't have enough general interest in her as a character. One of my favorite writers, on what many critics consider his OPUS, and I didn't feel like investing because I just never liked She-Hulk enough to pay for solo stories of her. I'd read those trades instantly if I found them free in a library, and I'm sure I'll enjoy them. I eventually cracked on Brubaker's CAPTAIN AMERICA so one day I'll have $100 burning a hole in my pocket and those SHE-HULK trades will call to me (although Marvel's bad policy of letting trades go out of print makes non-piracy options difficult). Some people are like that about DAREDEVIL, even if the Mark Waid run is vastly different from many of his past stories. I imagine anti-X-Men fans give you grief trying to convince them to try something new because things are changing because they've been burned before or just don't care enough about the X-Men in that way. X-23 is like that for me. I don't dislike her enough that I'd flee a team book she was in, but I don't like her enough to read her stories for no reason. I just don't feel she is that strong a concept, and I don't think Marvel is serious about exploring her potential, if she has any. Which is a shame since she's had more media exposure than a lot of other heroines they DO push, like Ms. Marvel (who had a 50 issue volume recently).

There are newer heroines I dislike more, though. Maria Hill, Quake, and Agent Brand being among them. I've grown to like Arana/Spider-Girl, maybe I just like the sassy ones who aren't either emotionless or B****'s.

I do have to say Gage has gotten Finesse to grow on me more than at the start of the series. Despite her own "dilemma" as a character, she usually got on my nerves because she did everything as a b****. Next to Veil and Hazmat, she was the one I often felt deserved any hardship she faced, because she usually treated people cruelly. But over time and despite her insistence of not understanding emotions well, Finesse started to go along her own track with them. A desire to know her father, for instance. The fact that she genuinely likes Reptil to the point that she makes out with him before a suicide mission, which is "illogical" to someone without emotions. The last issue where she lashed out at Magneto for mistreating her mentor Quicksilver demonstrated that fully. I'm not saying Finesse is suddenly my favorite of the Academy kids - Mettle is still it, with Hazmat a close second these days - but she's moved up a bit. I've gone on a few times about how Gage redeemed Tigra in my eyes due to his work with her in A:TI and here. The question will be if he will be allowed X-23 long enough to go anywhere deep with her, or if it really is guest star novelty.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I'd equate X-23 with Cassie Batgirl in terms of development. Both started out in relatively the same place, and as Cassie had slowly evolved X can do the same. Basically the story should progress that she slowly learns how to be more human and less of a killing machine, and she is doing that at different stages over the course of different books. It really depends on the writer.

 

[JewishHobbit]

It could be argued that the scene with Mettle was a sign of X-23 assuming a mentor role for some people, or at least a role where she can relate with experience. Finesse also appears to have things in common with her, from the preference of lethal weapons to having a "father figure" who has been a threat and manipulated by evil people in the past. Then again, the issue uses Future Reptil to lay out the foundation of X-23's tenure on the book being short. Perhaps she is getting a relaunch?

That'd be nice but I don't see it. And yeah, as I said before, the Mettle scene was my favorite of the issue but it was already tainted (reguarding Laura) due to how he wrote her in the first part.

In fairness, X-23 seems to be talking more than she did in, say, 2005 or so when she first appeared in Robert Kirkman's MARVEL TEAM-UP run. Her dialogue is just stiff and she rattles off like Exposition Lass, which would be fine if Finesse didn't also talk like that. Their dialogue avoided being interchangeable by THIS MUCH.

Actually that's part of what I hated the most. She doesn't talk that way. I don't think she's every really spoken like that. In her ongoing she spoke like anyone else, a normal girl. She went from fluent and human to stiff and robotic. It's honestly bad writing on Gage's part. He can do better so I hope he improves.

And I never did read Marvel Team-Up. I forgot she was in it.

I can understand X-23 wondering about soul issues given the X-Men mercilessly slaughter Mr. Sinister's Marauders because they are endlessly cloned and thus don't "count". I suppose if I wanted to stretch for some potential future stories, X-23 could have an interesting issue guest-starring in SCARLET SPIDER with Kaine, another clone of a major character struggling for identity. Or she could interact with no end of all those robot characters who wonder if they're "real" because they were assembled from scraps instead of born. Which they're not, but it's part of their subplot. X-23 could team up with Kaine and the last of the MVP clones and they could be the Clone Rangers, fighting for identity by punching criminals a lot.

While it wouldn't work in the long run I do like the idea of an arc including Kaine-Scarlet Spider and MVP-Scarlet Spider (though calling them both Scarlet Spider is a headache). That would be a very interesting plot with Laura. Even Xavier can have a part... he is in a cloned body after all.

It is a pipe dream to imagine Hellion joining the team. He's been mangled, literally, beyond recognition from the character who once was a big deal in ACADEMY X's heyday. A lot of those characters, who had loads of potential, have mostly been killed off, tormented, or forgotten aside for Anole and Rockslide, and even they're bush-leaguers.

Hellion would be a PRIME candidate for the Academy. As you said, he's been put through the grinder since he was nominated most likely to be an X-Man. He's lost his way and even killed a fellow X-Man to save her and others. He tried to join Magneto's brotherhood (not realizing that he wasn't a badguy anymore). He's burried more friends than most in the Marvel Universe. He'd be a GREAT addition to the team!

But the ghetto-ization of X-Men characters from more recent era's is another discussion. To a degree X-23 suffers from the endless torment that surrounds the X-Men franchise. Any character even remotely positive is either given nothing to do for 25 years (Iceman), killed outright, or eventually twisted and tormented into being a brooding anti-hero like every other single X-Men character (Colossus, as Cluggernaut, is the most recent example).

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of how the X-Men Universe has gone but it's finally on the up and up. Aaron is really pushing Iceman in Wolverine & the X-Men beyond his limits and in just one issue (issue 2) he did stuff he's never done and has vowed to reach his potential (or something like that). The darker edgier X-Men sucks and it all started with a stupid mental affair

A train of guest stars NEVER helps a book. The "introducing them to the universe" thing is a crock no fan actually buys.

I buy it if it's stated from the beginning. X-23 started with a plan to intrigrate her into the greater Marvel Universe. It worked in the book despite sales (unlike X-Men, which has been, for the most part, mediocre at best). Now, if the book was halfway through and suddenly started having guest stars gallore then yeah, I'd agree with you. But that wasn't the case with X-23.

The fact that X-23 DESPERATELY NEEDS bombastic characters or guest stars to carry her I think spells out her problem. She's a difficult character to handle in that way. If you actually have her, I don't know, get a life and not need to be angst ridden, she's now out of character. But if you write her as being shy and quiet and a woman of action, you need someone there to do the talking bits and by virtue of that, they give the impression of hogging. If X-23 has grown up, then I think her title would have been stronger if she was actually developing her own life and not doing a round robin of guest bits with franchises that outsell her like FF. Really, what does she have to do with the FF? The same thing Spider-Girl had to do with the Red Hulk - nothing. It comes off as forced.

It worked with the FF because of a slight connection she previously had with Spider-Man and Sue, in that they've all been possessed by the Enigma Force (and the plot had to do with that). It made perfect sense. It wasn't like they just showed up out of the blue, there was a link that the plot pulled from.

But while I think Laura can thrive on her own, I do think she does best bouncing off of other characters. I just wish it would be in some way other than "I kill people" and "I don't get along with people."

Still, there could be other forces at play for X-23's solo title. It was selling better than other uncanceled books, including AVENGERS ACADEMY (albeit not by much), and THUNDERBOLTS. Maybe Liu couldn't handle both that and ASTONISHING X-MEN and Marvel decided to cut bait on a Bottom 100 chart feeder? Who knows.

That would make sense, though I'd imagine that would have been announced. Plus, the idea of putting her in Academy is a good plan to still give Laura fans their fix while helping boost Academy sales. I wouldn't be by much but anything helps. For once it's a good thing that Marvel did there.

Then it is time Marvel actually found some stones and gave her an original codename.

I agree. If Kitty and Boom Boom can do it, so can Laura.

NYX I wonder if it did more harm than good for X-23's image. I've seen quite a few people online dismiss her because she once worked as a prostitute, which is by itself all sorts of cliched. It's strictly in the past now, but it can be hard to escape. And her being on X-Force was a very bad idea which all but implies how clueless the X-Men are with helping people sometimes.

I've actually never heard anyone complain about the prostitute angle. That's interesting. She was awesome on X-Force but it did push back her progression a bit, sadly. And it created some good plot for Wolverine and Cyclops.

As for Gage, I stand by my statement that I have never read anything from him that was bad or below average in quality, according to my standards. However, I can say I have read some average stories from him, that AXM debut being one of them, especially at $3.99. X-MEN: LEGACY will have some more slack because it is $2.99, but if it is looking dull I will likely not make it an arc. I'm only on it for Gage, Rogue, and Iceman really. And since I expect Iceman to do about as much as Justice did in AA (because no writer has him do anything), that's really for Gage and Rogue.

Again, if you want focus on Iceman then Wolverine & the X-Men is your book. He had a great star moment in issue 2 and it's actually one of the best books on the stands, at least two issues in. The fun returns to X-Men! W&tXM and Uncanny X-Force... I can't recommend them highly enough, even to non-X-Men fans (though UXF would have to be from issue 1).

The Iceman stuff isn't a digression. Part of his dilemma is he is a character who has never grown up, been allowed to evolve and move on beyond his finite window of demeanor. He's been the stock funny dude since 1963. Johnny Storm has suffered from that, which is why Hickman is basically ripping off PLANET HULK to try to correct that.

And this is becoming my biggest beef with Marvel right now (primarilly aimed at Spider-Man). Progression is good! Yet, Marvel hangs onto their current status quo and refuses to move them forward and I HATE that. I'd totally like it if characters died and were replaced, but that's not realistic in the comicbook world.

X-23 I think suffers that dilemma as well, as do a lot of younger characters. Marvel as a company is not ready to move her past a specific limited plot point, because they sell her as a brand within it. X-23 the mute angst ridden killing machine is what everyone knows of her, so she has to remain there, forever.

See, this I disagree with. It's not that she can't, it's that no one seems to want to. She's not a longtime name like Spider-Man or Hulk. She has room to grow and change and grow up. It took a while but Kitty and Jubilee has grown and moved on and Laura can as well. People just tend to stick to something and go with it. That's why I liked Liu's run... she was willing to progress Laura beyond what she was and move forward. Sadly, Gage isn't willing to continue that progression but wants to create his own and ignore previous plots. Pulling a Bendis I suppose.

You have to have interest in a character to seek out better things they're in. Nobody unless they have money to burn wastes cash reading about characters they don't care for, especially if it's on a book by creators they don't chase.

Somewhere in the world, a Phaedrus' nose is itching.

And there's never been a writer or artist that I'd follow, though Remender is quickly becoming that guy. I AM picking up Secret Avengers for him so I guess I can officially say I follow Remender.

As for characters, the only one I can think of that I actually follow comic to comic is Iron Fist. That's about it I think.

There are newer heroines I dislike more, though. Maria Hill, Quake, and Agent Brand being among them. I've grown to like Arana/Spider-Girl, maybe I just like the sassy ones who aren't either emotionless or B****'s.

That describes Hill and Brand 100% but not Quake at all. She had a lot of character and emotion in Secret Warriors. Good series

I've gone on a few times about how Gage redeemed Tigra in my eyes due to his work with her in A:TI and here. The question will be if he will be allowed X-23 long enough to go anywhere deep with her, or if it really is guest star novelty.

And this is how Marvel has jaded me. My very first thought after reading this was, "Who cares if he does anything deep with her. The next person will just ignore it and start her next plot in the exact same place again. No one progresses at Marvel."

Marvel's characters are awesome but Marvel sucks.

 

[Dread]

I'd equate X-23 with Cassie Batgirl in terms of development. Both started out in relatively the same place, and as Cassie had slowly evolved X can do the same. Basically the story should progress that she slowly learns how to be more human and less of a killing machine, and she is doing that at different stages over the course of different books. It really depends on the writer.

Given how poorly DC handled the Cassie Batgirl, I don't think the comparison is as optimistic as you likely imply. In fact, it'd have been clever if Marvel tried to appeal to that jaded fanbase to get readers on X-23. They didn't, because to capitalize on an area where their competitor is weak rather than mindlessly repeat the same board meeting approved tactics over and over is clearly beyond them.

Actually that's part of what I hated the most. She doesn't talk that way. I don't think she's every really spoken like that. In her ongoing she spoke like anyone else, a normal girl. She went from fluent and human to stiff and robotic. It's honestly bad writing on Gage's part. He can do better so I hope he improves.

And I never did read Marvel Team-Up. I forgot she was in it.

Yeah, X-23 technically showed up in two arcs of Kirkman's MTU run. Her first appearance was during the first half of the series, which centered around an evil alternate reality version of Tony Stark, who was initially confused for Dr. Doom due to his armor's appearance. This was in 2003-2005 or so, so X-23 was in her phase in which she barely said 5 word sentences and growled a lot. She teamed up with Spider-Man, if memory serves. She next showed up in the "League Of Losers" arc where she, Speedball, Terror, Dagger, Darkhawk, and Gravity prevented Chronok from ruling Marvel 616 by traveling to the future of Kirkman's Marvel Knights 2099 reality (not the same as Marvel 2099 continuity) and stopping him there. Thus, technically this is an alternate reality version of X-23. At the time some criticized it because she was written out of character (OOC) - she showed emotion and ended up dating Gravity. If there was one OOC bit, it was the explanation of why she survived the massacre of the X-Men as hiding, which probably is OOC for her.

I didn't know how X-23 spoke in her normal mini. But, yeah, I wasn't a fan of her robotic speech, mostly since Finesse often talks like that - along with Jocasta (when she's functioning). Adding a third diminishes X-23 and makes her seem more like a stunt guest star for buzz/attention. While that's nothing too outlandish - plenty of times Spider-Man and Wolverine sometimes acted oddly in a guest stint somewhere - but I suppose is dismaying for a fan.

While it wouldn't work in the long run I do like the idea of an arc including Kaine-Scarlet Spider and MVP-Scarlet Spider (though calling them both Scarlet Spider is a headache). That would be a very interesting plot with Laura. Even Xavier can have a part... he is in a cloned body after all.

While we're at it, how is a cloned body made? Do they grow a body and remove the brain so someone else's can be but in? Or do they stifle whatever consciousness that would have inhabited that brain so someone else's can be beamed in? Is that ethical to the same heroes who consider Mr. Sinister a monster?

I doubt we'll see much of the MVP-Scarlet Spider, especially now with Kaine running around, but there could be some decent ground to cover. Like I said, I was just brainstorming.

Hellion would be a PRIME candidate for the Academy. As you said, he's been put through the grinder since he was nominated most likely to be an X-Man. He's lost his way and even killed a fellow X-Man to save her and others. He tried to join Magneto's brotherhood (not realizing that he wasn't a badguy anymore). He's burried more friends than most in the Marvel Universe. He'd be a GREAT addition to the team!

With some notable exceptions, it is rare for X-characters to enter into other franchises and stay there very long. Notable exceptions mostly consist of Beast, Wolverine, and Storm historically. Some ex-X-Men founded a new band of New Warriors, but that era's over. I suppose if you wanted to stretch it, Firestar's initial appearance in 616 was as a Hellion before she founded the NEW WARRIORS to begin with, but that's a stretch. X-23 is in AVENGERS ACADEMY for a bit, but the story itself suggested it would be brief and she's a modestly well known character. She hailed from one TV show, and has been featured in another and in a popular Capcom fighter.

Justin Seyfert, the lead of the TSUNAMI launched SENTINEL series from 2003-2004 (with a 5 issue mini from 2005-2006), along with his titular Sentinel, is also part of the Academy student body. I suppose you could argue that's an X-character, but I'm not too sure of that. While stuff like the CSA and mutants were part of the story, the X-Men were not.

Hybrid was originally from ROM; his last appearance was in X-MAN I believe.

I doubt Hellion would show up. Marvel has proven they'd rather keep characters in the background of UXM rather than allow other franchises to have them. They kept Beast out of the Avengers for years until Brubaker wanted him for SA. But, you never know, I guess.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of how the X-Men Universe has gone but it's finally on the up and up. Aaron is really pushing Iceman in Wolverine & the X-Men beyond his limits and in just one issue (issue 2) he did stuff he's never done and has vowed to reach his potential (or something like that). The darker edgier X-Men sucks and it all started with a stupid mental affair

The X-Men have been mired in bleakness since the 90's, to various degrees. The cynic in me never feels any progress will last, but I'll reply more to that when you do down the list.

I buy it if it's stated from the beginning. X-23 started with a plan to intrigrate her into the greater Marvel Universe. It worked in the book despite sales (unlike X-Men, which has been, for the most part, mediocre at best). Now, if the book was halfway through and suddenly started having guest stars gallore then yeah, I'd agree with you. But that wasn't the case with X-23.

X-MEN at this point is X-MEN TEAM-UP. I have been surprised it's done as well as it has, but it usually has solid art and I guess over the top stories. But what I said was the IMPRESSION of having a rotating cast of guest stars makes people turn off a book. The fact of whether it is true or not doesn't matter; the IMPRESSION is enough to make or break a book. There are so many books out there that any new launch has to avoid pratfalls, or have that magic mix of hot franchise/creative team/high demand to last long. I suppose a Devil's Advocate would note that many other launches lately haven't lasted 20-21 issues.

Some guest stuff would have been fine, but a train of them in a row leaves a bad impression. I'm surprised Spider-Man didn't guest star by the 2nd or 3rd issue like he does for many series.

It worked with the FF because of a slight connection she previously had with Spider-Man and Sue, in that they've all been possessed by the Enigma Force (and the plot had to do with that). It made perfect sense. It wasn't like they just showed up out of the blue, there was a link that the plot pulled from.

But while I think Laura can thrive on her own, I do think she does best bouncing off of other characters. I just wish it would be in some way other than "I kill people" and "I don't get along with people."

The Enigma Force is always a random thing, but that's another digression.

As to your last bit, CAN SHE interact with other people besides "I kill people" or "I don't get along with people"? Does her concept allow any possibility for that? I think that's the difficulty of the character as a concept - you do that, you move away from her premise as X-23 unless you are willing to fully shift her from that premise and into something else, which I don't think Marvel genuinely has any intention to do. X-23 as X-23 in that limited scope is how people know her and how she sells in other markets, so I think they will keep here there, forever. And this is why fans rarely embrace new characters, because they have become savvy enough to the sham.

I always found the concept of X-23 boring. She's a Wolverine subplot, not an original character. Which is why I question how easily it is to write her out of it for long without simply making her a new character.

That would make sense, though I'd imagine that would have been announced. Plus, the idea of putting her in Academy is a good plan to still give Laura fans their fix while helping boost Academy sales. I wouldn't be by much but anything helps. For once it's a good thing that Marvel did there.

It certainly couldn't hurt. X-23 has some name recognition and both books sell about the same. It got some attention, which we'll see in January if it had any baring on sales. And as I stated in the past, while I find X-23 boring, she does technically fit the premise of AA. She was bred by evil people to be a mindless assassin and is struggling to evolve away from that. She fits in quite well with a class that was made of figures Norman Osborn sought to manipulate and control.

I agree. If Kitty and Boom Boom can do it, so can Laura.

In fairness, Tabitha is back to calling herself Boom-Boom thanks to NEXTWAVE.

But, it is certainly possible.

I've actually never heard anyone complain about the prostitute angle. That's interesting. She was awesome on X-Force but it did push back her progression a bit, sadly. And it created some good plot for Wolverine and Cyclops.

I've skimmed some message boards or tumblers where X-23 was called a "tramp" or a "****" due to that. Again, that's in the past, but impressions are everything. There are simply too many comics for new things to survive a bad first impression - just look at MARVEL DIVAS. Most critics said the series wasn't bad at all, but the suggestive covers and sexist name doomed it from the cradle.

Again, if you want focus on Iceman then Wolverine & the X-Men is your book. He had a great star moment in issue 2 and it's actually one of the best books on the stands, at least two issues in. The fun returns to X-Men! W&tXM and Uncanny X-Force... I can't recommend them highly enough, even to non-X-Men fans (though UXF would have to be from issue 1).

I actually liked Jason Aaron in GHOST RIDER, although his ASTONISHING SPIDER-MAN & WOLVERINE was a little wonky. SCHISM was not well reviewed and some of the reviews I read of W&TXM were mixed. The concept of SCHISM is something I disagree with; if there was any X-Man who would break from Cyclops' military tactician nature and feel kids shouldn't fight any more, Wolverine seems like the last character who that would make sense for. He's only in that role because of Shrek Syndrome - he's as popular in the MU as he is in real life. Next to that, I can't stand Chris Bachelo's art.

X-Men Legacy at least has a writer I like more, and a solid artist in David Baldeon. Plus, it has Iceman too.

And this is becoming my biggest beef with Marvel right now (primarilly aimed at Spider-Man). Progression is good! Yet, Marvel hangs onto their current status quo and refuses to move them forward and I HATE that. I'd totally like it if characters died and were replaced, but that's not realistic in the comicbook world.

I also am a fan of progression. The problem is it seems to be a problem in terms of merchandising, at least to the suits. Which I feel is a lame argument. I don't know how well versed in anime/manga you are, but characters have progressed in, say, NARUTO, DBZ and ONE PIECE. You telling me those franchises don't move copies and sell merchandise across the world? Of course they do! So believing advancing these characters would somehow effect their popularity or standing is a bit naive.

To a degree some of the older, proven characters can survive some lack of progression due to sheer staying power, but even many of them have progressed vastly from their original premises. Part of why newer characters don't last, I feel, is fans know Marvel doesn't "put up" in progressing them so they don't give them a chance, because they know Marvel will fold at the first resistance.

Lack of progression, and undoing it, hinders comics. I don't believe for a second Iceman will rise up because other writers won't follow up on Aaron's story, and once he's off the book, he'll be back to the joker who lobs snowballs at people. You see it undone via blatant reset button stories or through sheer bad editorial control and continuity control all the time. Which is why virtually none of the young readers the industry gains stay on mainstream books long - they move to manga and indie books mostly.

See, this I disagree with. It's not that she can't, it's that no one seems to want to. She's not a longtime name like Spider-Man or Hulk. She has room to grow and change and grow up. It took a while but Kitty and Jubilee has grown and moved on and Laura can as well. People just tend to stick to something and go with it. That's why I liked Liu's run... she was willing to progress Laura beyond what she was and move forward. Sadly, Gage isn't willing to continue that progression but wants to create his own and ignore previous plots. Pulling a Bendis I suppose.

Jubilee is a disaster. She was in limbo for a long time since GENERATION X ended at the start of the Joe Q era. She was dusted off for NEW WARRIORS but that was abandoned and now she's been attached to the vampire zeitgiest. She began as a cliche of the late 80's and is now a cliche of the 21st century. The only way she could be worse was to be a zombie. She's done. Nobody takes her seriously anymore.

Kitty Pryde has done vastly better, but she was benefited from being introduced by Claremont in 1980 and he focused heavily on her.

Marvel does have a lack of staying power with many of their ideas for lower tier characters, which is a problem.

Somewhere in the world, a Phaedrus' nose is itching.

And there's never been a writer or artist that I'd follow, though Remender is quickly becoming that guy. I AM picking up Secret Avengers for him so I guess I can officially say I follow Remender.

As for characters, the only one I can think of that I actually follow comic to comic is Iron Fist. That's about it I think.

I've long since figured Phaedrus is loaded or has a damn sweet job or blackmails his LCS to be able to afford all the comics he does. And, hey, someone has to. He's a one man direct market boost!

I do follow Iron Fist to a degree, which is why I bothered with DEFENDERS. I'll probably go back to SA for Remender, kicking and screaming due to the cover prices.

That describes Hill and Brand 100% but not Quake at all. She had a lot of character and emotion in Secret Warriors. Good series

My one moment of hypocrisy in regards to new characters. I didn't care for them when Bendis made them, even though I know that series was mostly written by Hickman. That, and the idea of SHIELD being infiltrated by HYDRA since the start sort of makes Nick Fury look like a joke.

And this is how Marvel has jaded me. My very first thought after reading this was, "Who cares if he does anything deep with her. The next person will just ignore it and start her next plot in the exact same place again. No one progresses at Marvel."

Marvel's characters are awesome but Marvel sucks.

I here you there. I mean, what happens to the Academy cadets once AA ends and Gage isn't allowed to write them anymore? That is the situation Marvel has made for themselves and once fans don't believe in the consistent universe anymore, they usually leave, and don't return.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Uncanny X-Force #18

A HUGE disagreement with JH on this one. First, Polybagged??!!?? Does Marvel seriously think this issue deserved a polybag treatment? It went on far too long (8 parts), and the story got seriously boring after Part 3. I've been dying for it to end. Remender started out this book pretty fantasically; but, things (as which happens with Remender titles) start to decline rapidly. His version of Deadpool was at first refreshing; but, has slowly fallen into lame one-liners. There is some interest in the three-way love triangle between Warren, Fantomex, and Psylocke; but, the characters are fast becoming two dimensional and boring. Deathlok is still in this book; yet, he pops in and out without any real reason.

This issue is good for one reason, and that's hopefully things will finally pick up with a new storyline. Heck, I usually love Dark Beast; but, this might have been his worst appearance to date.

What's to say? I hated it! for the issue, and for all 8!

Journey Into Mystery #632

Now, others call this the best book Marvel is putting out. It's hard to argue the fact. I loved the Christmas theme of the story. And, all of Loki's supporting characters are just as interesting as he is. Gillen is giving us some fantastic stuff here.

Carnage U.S.A. #1

Don't expect too much character development here. Zeb Wells gets right to the action. In this, Carnage has taken over a small town and infected them with his symbiote. (Not sure how this is done; but, I'm playing along.) The Avengers get called in, and they are totally taken apart. It all brings us to the final scene, where military is going to send in their own symbiotic force: Venom, Hybrid, Toxin, Scorn, and Anti-Venom.

While this story didn't wow me at first, looking back I'm much more excited about the next issue. What hurts the story is Crain's dark art. I do think he's taken steps to improve, as his last Carnage storyline was hard to determine characters at times. It's just not pretty, though.

Avengers: Sanction #1

Yeah. This first issue was a bit of a disappointment. I don't know why I'm surprised. Maybe I was thinking that Loeb's disappearance from comics for so long would have him come back stronger than ever; but, the story feels rushed and severely lacking in depth. As JH said, it's got all the hallmarks of his old Hulk series. All flash, but very little meat. I do want to find out what happens next; but, I still have to give it a .

Stephen King The Stand: The Night Has Come #5

One more issue to go. Marvel has done a fantastic job of adapting this book to comic form; and, best of all, they are not rushing things to fit this story in a quick twelve issues. I love how indepth the writer spent on Tom and Stu's trip back to Boulder this issue. It definitely makes it one of the best single issues thus far. The heart of King's masterpiece was always in the characters, and not so much the events around them. (Much like The Walking Dead.) t:

Dark Tower: The Gunslinger - The Way Station #1

I still look back on the original mini series for this long running adaptation, and think how badly it was handled. Unlike The Stand, the writers decided to rush Wizard And Glass into 8 issues; and, in the end, it seriously failed to make you care about the characters or the story. Since then, they've give King's story the treatment it deserves. (Still, it makes me wonder how many people gave up early on, finding very little to be excited about.)

This issue delivers a great beginning to The Way Station; and, best of all, there is some discussion at the end of the book, showing how the writer and artist took such a small part of King's original writing and turned it into this first issue. The story was good; but, the discussion just fascinated me.

 

[Phaedrus45]

A few more, before I go see Prince in concert tonight.

Batwoman #4

I love this book; but, as JH said, prepare yourself for some soft core lesbian porn. Williams III makes it very apparent that there is some hard core oral sex going just below where our eyes can't see; and, I'm a bit shocked that DC is so blatantly sexing up their comics. (I don't mind; but, it definitely eliminates this book being appropriate for all ages.) The women of Gotham are clearly getting their grove on. (Well, except for Babs.) I love seeing Firebird appearing in this book. She was an interesting character during the whole time Superman was missing from Earth for a full year. Also, I'm just amazed with the various styles of art Williams uses throughout his book.

A big .

Avenging Spider-Man #2

This is just a fun team-up book by Zeb Wells. It's just too bad they are charging $3.99 for it. (Although, what does it really matter. I think Marvel and DC have shown that going $2.99 doesn't really increase your readership by much..if anything at all.) Rulk and Spidey make for a lot of good humor; and Wells makes the Mole Man interesting again.

New Avengers #19

Who is the mole within the New Avengers? Bendis tries to make us believe that it's Victoria Hand; but, I'm thinking that's just a red herring. Take a close look at how Jessica Jones is acting; and, I think we've got our mole.

I'm loving this book. Bendis is great when it comes to a villian that inspires him; and, I think Osborn is one of his favorites. I can't wait for the next issue.

Battle Scars #2

Another solid issue; but, readers should get the very clear impression that this is just going to be a long, drawn out storyline that will end with who the main character, Marcus Johnson, really is. In between the first and last issues, we're going to get a bunch of fleeing, fighting, and searching for answers. Still, I did enjoy it.

Jingle Belle: Gift-Wrapped One-Shot

Cute Christmas humor, featuring Santa's rebellious daughter, Jingle Belle. It's written by Paul Dini; so, that was my reason for grabbing it. Like I said, it's cute; but, not much more than that. Good for the kiddies, though.

A mild .

 

[moraldeficiency]

Well I haven't read it but I'm gonna call the ending for X-Sanction now. Blaquesmith isn't really Blaquesmith but a villain, cable kills all the avengers, then uses his final seconds to go back and kill himself before he killed them undoing everything when he realizes the truth.

 

[El Bastardo]

Uncanny X-Force #18

A HUGE disagreement with JH on this one. First, Polybagged??!!?? Does Marvel seriously think this issue deserved a polybag treatment? It went on far too long (8 parts), and the story got seriously boring after Part 3. I've been dying for it to end. Remender started out this book pretty fantasically; but, things (as which happens with Remender titles) start to decline rapidly. His version of Deadpool was at first refreshing; but, has slowly fallen into lame one-liners. There is some interest in the three-way love triangle between Warren, Fantomex, and Psylocke; but, the characters are fast becoming two dimensional and boring. Deathlok is still in this book; yet, he pops in and out without any real reason.

This issue is good for one reason, and that's hopefully things will finally pick up with a new storyline. Heck, I usually love Dark Beast; but, this might have been his worst appearance to date.

What's to say? I hated it! for the issue, and for all 8!

...Wow.

Batwoman #4

I love this book; but, as JH said, prepare yourself for some soft core lesbian porn. Williams III makes it very apparent that there is some hard core oral sex going just below where our eyes can't see; and, I'm a bit shocked that DC is so blatantly sexing up their comics. (I don't mind; but, it definitely eliminates this book being appropriate for all ages.) The women of Gotham are clearly getting their grove on. (Well, except for Babs.) I love seeing Firebird appearing in this book. She was an interesting character during the whole time Superman was missing from Earth for a full year. Also, I'm just amazed with the various styles of art Williams uses throughout his book.

A big .

You are aware that wasn't really Firebird or Flamebird or whatever her name is... right?

 

[Phaedrus45]

Nope, I was not aware it wasn't really her. It looked like her, so I asumed it was. With reading so many comics, many times I am forgetting details that might have been explained at an earlier time. Often, I pick up a book, and the events have to trigger what I read a month or more ago.

 

[El Bastardo]

It was in the issue.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I would like to publically state that in regards to Uncanny X-Force I am right and Phaed is wrong... so

Also, Phaed is really blind so he's guessing a lot on these reviews. That can be the only explanation for his low review of UXF.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I'm going to check out the Dark Angel saga. Just read this interview which clenched it for me that Remender is just firing on all cylinders:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/rick-remender-dark-angel-saga-111219.html

Especially this part:

And then as for Wolverine, he fights until his very end, but I just hate when Wolverine is so goddamn powerful. He's not. He's just not. Wolverine up against a cosmic deity like an Apocalypse? It's not going that far, in my mind. I don’t care how it’s been portrayed in the past.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Yeah, that was my favorite part of that interview too. He doesn't get carried away... he gets the characters, challenges them, but takes them to places their characters would truthfully go. He plays them to their strenghts AND their limits.

 

[moraldeficiency]

I like the idea of a team book which tries to give everyone a spotlight but mix it up. God I can't believe I'm going to actually try X-Force. Damn you Remender and your excellent writing!

 

[JewishHobbit]

You won't regret it. I suggest starting from issue 1 though. His arcs are fairly individual but there's a greater reward for starting at the beginning as the plots begin impacting one another. The first arc was great. The second arc not so much during first reading but better after having read it down the road. The rest after that I just loved and the Dark Angel Saga has been nothing short of perfection (unless you're on crack like Phaed).

 

[moraldeficiency]

Nah, the team dynamic started with a bunch of people consisting of stabbing power and such (seemed a poor choice for an assassination team, plus I hated the reasoning for the team entirely). I do have a bit of a fascination with this incarnation though. And wolverine is becoming actually likable again. But I'll start later.

 

[El Bastardo]

Remender is one of the best writers currently working in the medium. You should check out his Last Days of American Crime, too, not to mention for the awesomeness that is Greg Tocchini.