The Winter Soldier vs. Civil War.

[Filmfan93]

Which in your opinion was the better film and why: CA: The Winter Soldier or CA: Civil War?

I've also included a poll.

 

[jolldan]

Love both but Civil War beats out Winter Soldier for me simply due to the fact it was sort of a diet-Avengers movie, I mean it had pretty much all the characters and introduced us to Black Panther & the new Spidey.

I know for a lot of people WS is the best marvel movie though.

 

[NotNickFury]

This isn't even a contest for me. For one, Winter Soldier is a much more focused and, for my money, engaging story. It's still Marvel Studios' finest film and I don't see anything topping it. The only thing I see rivaling it, as far as products that exists in this world Marvel has made, is the first season of Daredevil.

Plus, the destruction of SHIELD results in a massive change for this cinematic universe, whereas the Avengers may split in Civil War, but we knew they'd still gear up and fight the good fight by the time we got to the next main Avengers movies. Civil War is a fine movie as well, but it's basically an Avengers movie. Not that there's anything wrong with that because Cap is still a central figure, but I don't revisit Civil War nearly as much as I do Winter Soldier.

 

[BoredGuy]

Yeah Winter Soldier was a tighter, more cohesive story, it perfectly balanced being a standalone film with servicing the larger universe, and the tighter cast allowed them to actually build each character and give them an arc. It's only flaw, (which honestly feels like less of a flaw as time goes on) is that they went for the big CGI third act, but the emotional core still stays with Steve and Bucky

Civil War was pretty, and emotional, and had great action scenes, and was a great intro for BP and Spidey, but it was a bit sprawling, had some questionable choices by some of the characters, and yeah, ended in a way we knew would be quickly reversed.

Civil War is definitely a top tier CBM in my opinion, but Winter Soldier is one of the absolute best.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, both are very good but I prefer CW. Light-Avengers level action, some great intros to significant new characters but still with the emotional investment of some of the smaller scale films.

 

[The Caped Knight]

i love both movies for different reasons, The story and structure of The Winter Soldier is tight and grounded in intrigue. While the action and ensemble of cast in Civil War is mind-blowing awesome. Both films are Captain America centric and Evans leads beautifully even with Downey Jr. as a supporting role. I have to give credit to the Russo Brothers and writers Markus & Mcfeely in keep it focused on Cap.

 

[BoredGuy]

I also gotta say, one element of Civil War hasn't held up too well, imo

The big selling point, the part everybody in every reviewed focused on, the thing we paid to see.... the big "Epic" Airport battle scene.

Compared to Endgame's gigantic battle finale, that s**t is whack. Like it always looked a bit empty, plenty of people made fun of it saying it wasn't much of a "war" and many defended it saying "well they used the characters they had" "its not the comic, there's no way the battle would look like it did there".... But Endgame proved all that nonsense wrong. It gave us the Comic-Splash-Page style battle we all expected out of Civil War.

I also wished the accords had gotten more actual focus, instead of completely sidetracking into the Bucky stuff for acts 2 and 3... adding German or UN Armed Forces to Tony's side could've added to that battle considerably

 

[Bayne]

I also gotta say, one element of Civil War hasn't held up too well, imo

The big selling point, the part everybody in every reviewed focused on, the thing we paid to see.... the big "Epic" Airport battle scene.

Compared to Endgame's gigantic battle finale, that s**t is whack. Like it always looked a bit empty, plenty of people made fun of it saying it wasn't much of a "war" and many defended it saying "well they used the characters they had" "its not the comic, there's no way the battle would look like it did there".... But Endgame proved all that nonsense wrong. It gave us the Comic-Splash-Page style battle we all expected out of Civil War.

I also wished the accords had gotten more actual focus, instead of completely sidetracking into the Bucky stuff for acts 2 and 3... adding German or UN Armed Forces to Tony's side could've added to that battle considerably

Um, Endgame didn't prove any of that wrong. It gave us that massive splash page battle because it was able to naturally draw in the Guardians, the Wakandans, the Sorcerors and the Asgardians all at the same time, which Civil War quite obviously could not have done. It would have made absolutely no sense for it to try.

 

[BoredGuy]

I understand that, thanks

My point is, for something that was billed as this all-out balls-to-the-wall massive battle scene, it looks quaint in comparison to Endgame's

And I get that storywise it makes sense for Endgame to have the bigger fight

But the thrill of watching the Civil War battle is now mostly gone... I used to watch that battle all on its own on youtube like once a week, but now, only Endgame's gets a standalone rewatch

 

[Stormborn]

Winter Soldier's my preference. A more focused Cap story with a smaller cast and great character moments in between the spectacle and intrigue.

I also gotta say, one element of Civil War hasn't held up too well, imo

The big selling point, the part everybody in every reviewed focused on, the thing we paid to see.... the big "Epic" Airport battle scene.

Compared to Endgame's gigantic battle finale, that s**t is whack. Like it always looked a bit empty, plenty of people made fun of it saying it wasn't much of a "war" and many defended it saying "well they used the characters they had" "its not the comic, there's no way the battle would look like it did there".... But Endgame proved all that nonsense wrong. It gave us the Comic-Splash-Page style battle we all expected out of Civil War.

I actually think a fair few battle scenes in the MCU outshine the final battle of Endgame. A lot of them have better settings (New York, Sokovia, Xandar) than Endgame's field of rubble for a start and I'm cool with less characters when it gives them the chance to shine.

 

[Zarex]

I voted for Civil War. TWS is great,and I prefer that film's civies battle in the street over the lunchroom fight in CW. But the costumed tussles are better in CW - The arthropods in particular are fantastic at the airport. And the "We must swap out the software on the Helicarriers!!" ending was much less exciting than the Bucky, Cap & Tony threeway fight.

 

[InCali]

At first, I would have said Civil War, but, over time, my mind changed to TWS. He was such a great villain. Very dangerous and mysterious. I just really liked the plot in general and appreciated it because it held together even though it "wasn't" an Avengers (lite) movie.

Love Civil War though.....

 

[Batmannerism]

Wow. This is a very tough question for me - these are my two favourite MCU films ( well tied with GOTG ).

I understand that, thanks

My point is, for something that was billed as this all-out balls-to-the-wall massive battle scene, it looks quaint in comparison to Endgame's

And I get that storywise it makes sense for Endgame to have the bigger fight

But the thrill of watching the Civil War battle is now mostly gone... I used to watch that battle all on its own on youtube like once a week, but now, only Endgame's gets a standalone rewatch

True the big fight in CIvil War isn't as massive as the final battle in Endgame but I still prefer the Cap movies - both have a lot less CGI ( sure CGI stuff looks cool but doesn't quite have the same impact as practical effects), and I'm a big fan of practical special effects. The one on one fight between Cap and Bucky in TWS is just as intense as the final fight in Endgame because it's so personal and well choreographed.

There are a number of action sequences in TWS and Civil War which take place in broad daylight or well lit areas that are real ( compared to the final battle in Endgame which obviously takes place on a soundstage with a massive green screen background - I worked on the Hobbit movie, in a battle scene, so trust me on this) having a background that's real adds something IMO ( eg in CW the Lagos fight with Crossbones and his mercs, the fight at Bucky's apartment and streets of Vienna, certainly parts of the airport scene were shot on location .

In TWs the Lemurian Star was obviously shot on a ship and the freeway/Avenue fight was shot outside as well as parts of the final big action set piece.

However, where the Cap movies really stand out in the MCU is that they do more for character development than most other films ( except maybe Ragnarok). RDJ's performance in Civil War was his best since the first Iron Man - because he's believable as being conflicted and less self assured - and the final fight has tons of raw emotion ( RDJ doesn't have to say anything he just gives Cap a look that shows his rage and sense of betrayal before the battle starts).

CW gets mad props for not only juggling the leads but introducing Black Panther and Spider Man so effectively.

I really can't decide between the two TBH, but I can say that these two films are the reason that the Cap trilogy is the best cbm trilogy IMO.

 

[thangaran]

Winter Soldier

 

[Bayne]

I just rewatched Endgame this afternoon and I still love the scale of the final fight, but in the end it means a lot to me as the emotional climax of the Infinity saga and a really fun tag team exercise featuring great characters but its not much of a fight scene at all, imo. The rubble setting is extremely drab, the Black Order go down with extreme ease, the massive armies appear and disappear whenever convenient and none of the characters really gets a truly solid through-line through the battle (because there are so many of them to juggle), with several being reduced to one or two shots (and CM and DS in particular being heavily sidelined).

The Airport fight in CW remains the superior fight for me (though the Titan fight in IW is strong competition as well, not to mention the Battle of New York in A1). It's visually cooler and much more coherent.

 

[BoredGuy]

True the big fight in CIvil War isn't as massive as the final battle in Endgame but I still prefer the Cap movies - both have a lot less CGI ( sure CGI stuff looks cool but doesn't quite have the same impact as practical effects), and I'm a big fan of practical special effects. The one on one fight between Cap and Bucky in TWS is just as intense as the final fight in Endgame because it's so personal and well choreographed.

There are a number of action sequences in TWS and Civil War which take place in broad daylight or well lit areas that are real ( compared to the final battle in Endgame which obviously takes place on a soundstage with a massive green screen background - I worked on the Hobbit movie, in a battle scene, so trust me on this) having a background that's real adds something IMO ( eg in CW the Lagos fight with Crossbones and his mercs, the fight at Bucky's apartment and streets of Vienna, certainly parts of the airport scene were shot on location .

I just rewatched Endgame this afternoon and I still love the scale of the final fight, but in the end it means a lot to me as the emotional climax of the Infinity saga and a really fun tag team exercise featuring great characters but its not much of a fight scene at all, imo. The rubble setting is extremely drab, the Black Order go down with extreme ease, the massive armies appear and disappear whenever convenient and none of the characters really gets a truly solid through-line through the battle (because there are so many of them to juggle), with several being reduced to one or two shots (and CM and DS in particular being heavily sidelined).

The Airport fight in CW remains the superior fight for me (though the Titan fight in IW is strong competition as well, not to mention the Battle of New York in A1). It's visually cooler and much more coherent.

Ok, I hear ya, yall make some good points, especially about the black order and characters having throughlines in the fights, and I do agree Practical is always better than digital

but idk, I guess for me it comes down to the Airport fight just looking really damn empty. Like there weren't even any baggage handlers or pedestrians there.

I try to picture myself as a bystander, and if I was on a plane on that tarmac, i'd have been like "Hmm, something going on over there, oh is that Iron Man? Huh, wonder what's up" I wouldn't be astonished and terrified until I saw Ant-Man grow and Vision start wrecking s**t

Whereas, If I was down the road from the Avengers facility when the Endgame battle started, I'd be like "Holy f**k the world is ending!!!"

So I get where y'all comin from with it being not as cinematically or thematically well put-together, but I think of it more in terms of suspending disbelief and actually imagining that what I'm seeing really happened, same as I do with comics, and in that sense, Endgame was more impressive.

Plus the fanservice in Endgame's fight was just through the roof. The one big fan moment in CW was Ant-Man growing, Endgames fight had like, 20 of those moments

 

[Closerframe]

Winter Soldier by a mile. It was the first Marvel film that felt like it had real consequences and it focused solely on Steve and Bucky's relationship versus Civil War seeming more like an Avengers 1.5

 

[Mandon Knight]

Both solid films, I’ll call it a draw.

 

[HammerDown]

TWS. Hands down.

 

[rebellion]

TWS and its not even close for me. Its my fav mcu film and, imo, one of the best cbms ever.

 

[Fincher]

I like Civil War all right, but not nearly as much as the first two Captain America movies. In my opinion, those two work better when I ignore the Avengers films altogether and treat them as their own thing. Then with Civil War it was all about The Avengers where those movies couldn't be ignored, and so it wasn't the good sequel to the first two Captain America movies that I would have liked.

Taken on its own, or rather as an Avengers sequel, it was better than The Avengers or Age of Ultron, but I still thought it suffered from being cluttered. At the very least, I would take Spider-Man out. I liked the Hawkeye/Scarlet Witch story, I thought Ant-Man was funny, Natasha was hot and the stuff between her and Steve was cool (although I still liked her more in The Winter Soldier and in Iron Man 2), but the airport fight was mostly a lot of frivolous action without furthering the core narrative. We've already seen The Avengers fight, it doesn't mean anything. I was firmly on Cap's side, which is actually all well and good for this movie because I think Steve's integrity and heroism as a character is what makes him work. However, there wasn't the satisfaction of seeing him accomplish much as a hero because there wasn't much to accomplish. I enjoyed watching his relationship with Tony sour (along with the other Team Cap members in the prison scene), but then they walked it back at the end.

What I really would have liked is a third solo movie that built on Steve/Bucky and Steve/Natasha, a property trilogy capper to what came before, but honestly, while watching the intro where they faced off with Crossbones, I've thought that I would also prefer a third movie of basically just that. Just four superheroes (Steve, Natasha, Wanda, Sam) who mesh well going on a sort of globe-trotting, terrorist-thwarting, lowkey sort of adventure, without the grandiosity and excess of The Avengers. I guess that's sort of along the lines of what we're getting with the Black Widow movie now.

 

[Batmannerism]

Ok, I hear ya, yall make some good points, especially about the black order and characters having throughlines in the fights, and I do agree Practical is always better than digital

but idk, I guess for me it comes down to the Airport fight just looking really damn empty. Like there weren't even any baggage handlers or pedestrians there.

I try to picture myself as a bystander, and if I was on a plane on that tarmac, i'd have been like "Hmm, something going on over there, oh is that Iron Man? Huh, wonder what's up" I wouldn't be astonished and terrified until I saw Ant-Man grow and Vision start wrecking s**t

Whereas, If I was down the road from the Avengers facility when the Endgame battle started, I'd be like "Holy f**k the world is ending!!!"

So I get where y'all comin from with it being not as cinematically or thematically well put-together, but I think of it more in terms of suspending disbelief and actually imagining that what I'm seeing really happened, same as I do with comics, and in that sense, Endgame was more impressive.

Plus the fanservice in Endgame's fight was just through the roof. The one big fan moment in CW was Ant-Man growing, Endgames fight had like, 20 of those moments

I have to agree that Endgame totally delivered on the fan service, and Cap lifting Mjolnir is the single biggest moment in the MCU, followed by his " Avengers....assemble!" . What makes the Endgame battle work for me is the intense melee conflict with Thanos - after the 2 armies show up it's a bit like the end of Lord of the Rings.

Hmmmm ..... I will have to watch the airport battle again, but again the setting ( outdoors, mostly in a real location and in clear daylight ) certainly makes a difference for me - compared to the dull, and obviously cgi setting for the finale of Endgame. Sometimes CGI environments really work ( e.g. Titan in IW, the Dark Dimension in Dr S ) and sometimes they're a bit too fake ( that was my beef with the Hobbit films compared to LOTR ).

Something certainly in TWS' favour is its superb fight scenes (Lemurian Star, Elevator, Freeway/Street , the final Cap v Bucky showdown) are largely practical which really adds to the intensity.

I still can't decide between TWS and CW - really go back and forth on this one.

 

[Flint Marko]

A good thread idea because it's such a toss-up.

Gun to my head, Winter Soldier might be the better movie on the whole.

But what's impressive about CW is that, on paper, it looks like it bites off more than it can chew but it not only does Steve and Tony's story justice, but gives most of the other Avengers solid arcs along the way while serving as an introduction to the two biggest new characters that will carry the franchise going forward.

It could have, maybe even should have, gone off the rails. But they nailed it.

 

[Batmannerism]

A good thread idea because it's such a toss-up.

Gun to my head, Winter Soldier might be the better movie on the whole.

But what's impressive about CW is that, on paper, it looks like it bites off more than it can chew but it not only does Steve and Tony's story justice, but gives most of the other Avengers solid arcs along the way while serving as an introduction to the two biggest new characters that will carry the franchise going forward.

It could have, maybe even should have, gone off the rails. But they nailed it.

Yes ! Couldn't have said it better - CW's biggest achievement is successfully juggling the characters , particularly Steve and Tony ( again IMO best performance as Iron Man since the first Iron Man film) while introducing 2 massive new characters- and making it all work !!!!!

I guess as a purely Captain America film TWS is probably better - and Cap really shines as a character ( and his fight scenes/choreography in this film are probably the best in the MCU, he's the perfect combination of Bruce Lee and Jason Bourne).

 

[jolldan]

Ok, I hear ya, yall make some good points, especially about the black order and characters having throughlines in the fights, and I do agree Practical is always better than digital

but idk, I guess for me it comes down to the Airport fight just looking really damn empty. Like there weren't even any baggage handlers or pedestrians there.

I try to picture myself as a bystander, and if I was on a plane on that tarmac, i'd have been like "Hmm, something going on over there, oh is that Iron Man? Huh, wonder what's up" I wouldn't be astonished and terrified until I saw Ant-Man grow and Vision start wrecking s**t

Whereas, If I was down the road from the Avengers facility when the Endgame battle started, I'd be like "Holy f**k the world is ending!!!"

So I get where y'all comin from with it being not as cinematically or thematically well put-together, but I think of it more in terms of suspending disbelief and actually imagining that what I'm seeing really happened, same as I do with comics, and in that sense, Endgame was more impressive.

Plus the fanservice in Endgame's fight was just through the roof. The one big fan moment in CW was Ant-Man growing, Endgames fight had like, 20 of those moments

Hey if you saw dude's launching water trucks and plane wings like Frisbee's you'd be getting the hell out of dodge to