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Comics Top 10 Reasons I Stopped Reading Spiderman

Doc Destruction said:
Yes, there is. We all get together, do the secret handshake, eat children and discuss how to hate on SIAT and you.:rolleyes:

Technically, you're supposed to hate me regardless of my stance on the state of a fictional character. Being that you're from Cleveland and I'm from Pittsburgh we have to hate each other by nature.

Besides...the Browns suck. And The Steelers will always own them. :)
 
My own top ten:


10. The Clone Saga
9. Todd McFarlane
8. Venom
7. The Clone Saga
6. Todd McFarlane
5. Carnage
4. The Clone Saga
3. The Clone Saga
2. Norman's Return
1. The Clone Saga

No particular order, though frequency on my list might indicate something.

Spider-Man started to go wrong when McFarlane came along. After that it was all downhill. The single worst storyline in Spidey history is the clone saga, and the second worst is anything having to do with Venom. . . At least until recently. The Other was terrible for Spidey, and Tony Stark's influence on Spider-Man needs to stop immediately. All this totem, mystic crap needs to stop, too.

Spidey was always about science and technology, not magic.
 
SpideyInATree said:
Technically, you're supposed to hate me regardless of my stance on the state of a fictional character. Being that you're from Cleveland and I'm from Pittsburgh we have to hate each other by nature.

Besides...the Browns suck. And The Steelers will always own them. :)

Sad AND true. Good thing I'm a Saints fan! :p
 
Red_Dragon said:
1. Spidey's 'evolution' of powers. Sorry, it's lame. Also, making him into some sort of mystical being who evolves instead of a super-powered photographer is lame.

2. While we're on the subject of super-powered photgraphers, making Pete a high school sciene teacher was terrible move, and a weak plot device.

3. The Iron Spidey costume. So now Peter's trying his best to follow in the footsteps of a drunken playboy who uses his flying armour to fight bad-guys? Nope, that's just not right. Plus the costume just looks stupid.

4. The Clone Saga. Norman Osborn is behind the Clone Saga. Ben Reilly. Ben Reilly's death, just when you start to like him.

5. Sins Past story arc. Gwen would not sleep with bloody Norman Osborn, no matter what the writers say.

6. The unmasking in Civil War #2. This is completely crossing the line, and whoever wrote it is a bad, bad man.

7. Spider-man, the hero who refuses to kill anyone (on purpose anyways) kills Morlun? I mean people like Carnage go through the city on massive killing sprees, with hundreds of innocent victims, and Spidey can't bring himself to kill him. The Green Goblin throws Spiy's first love of a F@#$ING BRIDGE and he doesn't kill the Goblin. But Morlun breaks his wife's arm and he goes ape**** on the guy? Completely out of character for him.

8. Brock selling his symbiote and donating the money to charity, then slitting his wrists when Venom, of all people, KILLS SOMETHING! WTF?

9. On that topic, the ScopoVenom thing. It's basically just a stain on the pages of ASM. Mac Gargan is DEFINATELY not a suitable host for Venom. Period.

10. Joe Quesida. FIRE HIM.
Those are good reasons! I'm especially with ya on 1, 5, 7, & 10.

BTW - welcome to the Hype! :)
 
boywonder13 said:
I loved when continuity was tight and when stories would be wrapped up like in the Lee-Ditko age where stories where no more than 3 or 4 issues long but had continuing subplots.

Oh...woe is me....where is the True Spider-Man.......:spidey: :down
so did i thats a good question
 
ZeroCorpse said:
My own top ten:


10. The Clone Saga
9. Todd McFarlane
8. Venom
7. The Clone Saga
6. Todd McFarlane
5. Carnage
4. The Clone Saga
3. The Clone Saga
2. Norman's Return
1. The Clone Saga

No particular order, though frequency on my list might indicate something.

Spider-Man started to go wrong when McFarlane came along. After that it was all downhill. The single worst storyline in Spidey history is the clone saga, and the second worst is anything having to do with Venom. . . At least until recently. The Other was terrible for Spidey, and Tony Stark's influence on Spider-Man needs to stop immediately. All this totem, mystic crap needs to stop, too.

Spidey was always about science and technology, not magic.
So you stopped reading 27 years ago, yet are totally up to date on all Spider-Man happenings? :confused:

...yes, Venom was created 27 years ago.
 
Actually, it's 18 years, not 27.


Well, I'm done with Comic Book Resources Forum (even with the new rules). Their response to the megaessay (link in my sig) was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Then again, this board has also been less that encouraging, too. A certain fellow who insists on writing like he's Wolverine and all the nutjobs who have embraced Superman Returns, in particular.

Here was the parting note I left at the afforementioned forum, and a link to the threads that really burned me. I hope I don't need to leave another one here.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=109853

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=112138



Threads like this prove many of my points. Even the title of this thread is based on something I never said.

Thread after thread, board after board. "Geek". "Idiot". "Loser". "Fool".

Cruelty and name-calling from small, petty-minded people is exactly what the industry now prides itself upon, and what the bulk of the dwindling fanbse has turned into.


That's it, then. There's really no hope for the industry. The sarcastic, mouthy fanboys win again, as they have for years and years.


I only hope that someone out there has read, understood, and enjoyed my work. If even one person has read and understands, then I've won.


Perhaps you'll change your tune when once-great characters like Spider-Man fade away under a pile of "shocking" changes, "growth and change", dumbed-down movie "adaptations", and diminishing sales.

If and when Spider-Man dies, history will probably blame the character himself for failing, instead of the fanboys and fanboys-turned-writers who killed him because they couldn't get past themselves. And that's tragic.



Let me guess. Once I post this, there will be an onslaught of replies. Replies that call me "fool" and "idiot", and which laugh at me and mock me and try to reassure everyone that everything is fine, and that Spider-Man--and the industry--has never been better.

This is not a message board for people who enjoy comics to have scholarly discussions. It is an insane asylum run by the inmates, just as the comic book industry itself has become.

Fine. Great. Enjoy your trip on this sinking ship. And make sure to pack your luggage with heavy weights, so it'll sink even faster.


I'm done. Have fun.



I'm done. I love Spider-Man and all these other great characters (and will continue to read/research and buy back issues), but in terms of the here and now, they're dead to me.

There's just nothing left for me to enjoy. A big part of that is the attitude of the fanbase (as seen on the afforementioned forum) and the creators.


Nothing is sacred.

The anal-retentives rule, and even the dumbest stories and ideas (which should be ignored) are dredged back up.

Shocking change is "good" and "necessary".

People are obsessed with notions of "continuity", when all that really matters is continuity of character and theme. So, as a result, we get slavish devotion to the stupidest little details from 40 years ago, but the big, important stuff, like a character's most basic personality and motivation--is thrown right out the window.

No one cares about the children or the future. All anyone wants is instant gratifcation, "realism", and "growth". Many aging readers insist that the stories be written for them, so they won't get bored and grow up, up and away from comics.

The Direct Market, in conjunction with the aging fanbase that's constantly demanding 'growth" and realism, has turned an all-ages, general market product into a specifically-tailored, niche-market product with ever-dwindling sales.




Most of the rest of my reasons (far more than the 10 required in this thread) are summed up here:

http://redeeminggwendy.blogspot.com
 
I wouldn’t get too discouraged, Greg. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson’s character from A Few Good Men, some people just can’t handle the truth. For example, on those same message boards, there was a thread entitled “What Are the Biggest Lies Marvel has Ever Told?” I mentioned that one of them was JMS’ claimed that
Sins Past
(the reason why I black out the title now is because, considering it’s content and overall reaction, I consider it the “unmentionable story” much like the “unmentionable sin”) would fit perfectly within continuity despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which you have exhaustively chronicled. Right away, there were posters who defended that story, one who said that we don’t really know how long Gwen might have been in Europe between ASM #94-ASM #98 and that she could’ve gone to France while she was staying over in London considering the geography of the two countries. Of course, they seemed to have forgotten that Gwen having the affair with Osborn sometime between ASM #61-#62 and having the babies between ASM #94-#98 was the official word from Marvel after the fact and that it was based on Madgoblin’s own theory of how he thought it might fit. However, it’s pretty clear by reading the actual story itself coupled with JMS own comments that he intended the one night stand to take place sometime between ASM #90 and ASM #94 and that she was pregnant somewhere between ASM #115 and ASM #120 because JMS discounted the ASM #116-#118 as a retelling of Spectacular Spider-Man #1, even though that story made references and was tied into current storylines. I guess all one can do is to quietly laugh and not let it get to you.

BTW, I am in total agreement with the Direct Sales Market being a problem, and not just for Spider-Man comics. I listed this a “bonus” in my own personal 10 reasons.
 
in fairness JMS's original view for sins past would have fit. theyd have been pete's kids and the storyline would have unfolded differently. cant age spider-man now though can we?
 
10. The unmasking. If there was one "free-spirit" in the Marvel Universe it was Spidey. If there's one guy with the worst rogues gallery it's Spidey! No one has more to lose than him. Stupid!!!

9. Taking the Sci Fi away. The heck is this Siper-god thing?????:mad: :spidey: Now there were other "spider-guys???? Now it's all mystical??????? I hate that!!!

8. Stingers??? Just stupid.

7. Living at Avengers tower. Spidey's charge was being in the neighborhood. A regular shmo. Have Stark re-build the house already.

6. That horrible costume. It's not spiderman. It's Iron -Spider. And he shouldn't be flying or gliding.

5. A high school teacher. Why can't a smart guy like Pete get ahead?? He's got a degree!! He should have a great career and a nice home. It's a natural progression.

4. Sins Past. Gwen and Pete's romance was one of sweetest in comic book history. But writers today can't let happy memories stand. They had to trash it with Gwen bonin' Osborn. Now Gwen is a **** and Norman's a baby-daddy, :mad:


3. John Romita Jr. He's gone.

2. Pete following Stark around like a flunkie.

1. Cost too much.
 
MyPokerShirt said:
in fairness JMS's original view for sins past would have fit. theyd have been pete's kids and the storyline would have unfolded differently. cant age spider-man now though can we?

"Heaven's forbid no! He must be young dammit!" :D

Seriously, in hindsight, it was obviously JMS' intent when you see what a dead ringer Gabriel is for Peter. However, personally I'm not sure how I would've taken the whole "Peter has illegitamate mutant children" angle. After all, Bill Mantlo once upon a time had a story idea for the Black Cat would become pregnant with Peter's child but Jim Shooter scraped the idea because the idea of a character marketed to kids being having a child out of wedlock might not have sit so well with people. Joe Q probably rejected the original story for the same reason. Although ironically, he then goes ahead and approves of JMS' "plan B" to have Norman Obsorn be the daddy. Well, I'm sorry, but as soon as the original idea was rejected, so should've the whole story.
 
10. Baby May disappearing. Let's do the X-Men thing and have her taken to the future where she is raised to a young adult (or an old woman) and bring her back to the present. Tada! Peter is still young!

9. Worrying about Peter's age. Dude, he's like 28 or 29. Not 24. And i'm okay with that. It doesn't make him any less relatable to me.

8. New Powers? Ummm...what? Although at first I HATED the organic webbing. I've come to accept it now. But the other stuff....?

7. John Byrne's Reboot. Enough said.

6. Killing Ben Reilly. I always thought it would have been cool if he got crippled instead of killed by the Goblin Glider and so he was forced into a wheel chair (or at least a limp). Then he could've been an important supporting character and then people wouldn't complain about there being more than one Spidey.

5. Loft at the New Avengers pad. I kinda like the fact that they know his identity and that it's the Marvel attempt at the JLA. But do they have to live there?

4. Peter would NEVER willingly unmask because his aunt and Tony Stark said so. NEVER!!!! Now i am forced to think less of Peter and actually root for him to fail because of his ABSOLUTE stupidity. He would NEVER do that.

3. Never acknowledging anything related to the clone saga. Yeah, yeah, Gwen's neck broke waaaah. I'm a bit tired of hearing it. How about poor Ben Reilly? or Baby May? Even if we never see them again, it would be nice to see their roles in Peter's life as established canon that he constantly reminisces. Which leads me to a point. I'm 21 years old. All my friends who don't read comics know enough about Spider-man by either having some comics as kids and watching the animated series. We're not 40 year olds pining over the good old days of Gwen Stacy (although nothing is wrong with that). We like Carnage cause knives come out of his skin. We had Fleer cards when we were kids. We owned pogs for like a month and we played Pokemon at least once (or made fun of it and secretly played it once). We associate Mary Jane with Spider-man (and weed). But whenever any of my friends know that I like Spider-man the most common question i get is "Who was the Scarlet Spider?" cause they only knew a little bit and thought he was cool. None of them even know who Gwen Stacy is. Shallow? maybe a tad. But even my friends who like comics are like me: a product of the 90's. We like the clone saga and villians like Venom and Kaine. USE THEM!

2. Actress/Aunt May - I loved issue 400! Why bring her back?!?! It was the ultimate middle finger when we all thought Baby May was coming back. Now all she does is flirt with Jarvis and convince Peter to take off his mask (you were kidnapped for a year and had a bomb in your brain *****!)

1. Not learning from mistakes. It's ironic to see how Marvel scoffs at the mention of the clone saga (especially when there's still a good amount of people who enjoyed it), but then decides to put out things like "The Other" and "Sins Past" (a story that didn't do anything and a story that almost went out of it's way to piss people off, two of the biggest faults many fans had with the clone saga). **** you Quesada. You're not as smart as you think.
 
MyPokerShirt said:
in fairness JMS's original view for sins past would have fit. theyd have been pete's kids and the storyline would have unfolded differently. cant age spider-man now though can we?


Peter-as-father defies the core of the character.

(Pause for snarky comment from Wolverine 25th.)


We live in a world where nothing is sacred, and creators think Spider-Man or Superman having children are KEWL, and should be done in the mainstream (as opposed to "What If?" or imaginary stories).
 
stillanerd said:
I wouldn’t get too discouraged, Greg. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson’s character from A Few Good Men, some people just can’t handle the truth. For example, on those same message boards, there was a thread entitled “What Are the Biggest Lies Marvel has Ever Told?” I mentioned that one of them was JMS’ claimed that
Sins Past
(the reason why I black out the title now is because, considering it’s content and overall reaction, I consider it the “unmentionable story” much like the “unmentionable sin”) would fit perfectly within continuity despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which you have exhaustively chronicled. Right away, there were posters who defended that story, one who said that we don’t really know how long Gwen might have been in Europe between ASM #94-ASM #98 and that she could’ve gone to France while she was staying over in London considering the geography of the two countries. Of course, they seemed to have forgotten that Gwen having the affair with Osborn sometime between ASM #61-#62 and having the babies between ASM #94-#98 was the official word from Marvel after the fact and that it was based on Madgoblin’s own theory of how he thought it might fit. However, it’s pretty clear by reading the actual story itself coupled with JMS own comments that he intended the one night stand to take place sometime between ASM #90 and ASM #94 and that she was pregnant somewhere between ASM #115 and ASM #120 because JMS discounted the ASM #116-#118 as a retelling of Spectacular Spider-Man #1, even though that story made references and was tied into current storylines. I guess all one can do is to quietly laugh and not let it get to you.

BTW, I am in total agreement with the Direct Sales Market being a problem, and not just for Spider-Man comics. I listed this a “bonus” in my own personal 10 reasons.


Thank you. But discouraged I am, and discouraged I'll continue to be. Really, the only good place left to talk about comics for me is the Byrne forum. But it's nice to know that not everyone has gone insane. Thanks.
 
stillanerd said:
"Heaven's forbid no! He must be young dammit!" :D

Seriously, in hindsight, it was obviously JMS' intent when you see what a dead ringer Gabriel is for Peter. However, personally I'm not sure how I would've taken the whole "Peter has illegitamate mutant children" angle. After all, Bill Mantlo once upon a time had a story idea for the Black Cat would become pregnant with Peter's child but Jim Shooter scraped the idea because the idea of a character marketed to kids being having a child out of wedlock might not have sit so well with people. Joe Q probably rejected the original story for the same reason. Although ironically, he then goes ahead and approves of JMS' "plan B" to have Norman Obsorn be the daddy. Well, I'm sorry, but as soon as the original idea was rejected, so should've the whole story.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Spider-Man was created as the ultimate teenage escapism fantasy. He was the super-hero for teens, who WAS a teen.

Turning him into a 30-year-old, married teacher with children flies in the face of that so very, very badly. He's become just another adult superhero with adult problems.

Why do you think Ultimate Spider-Man does so well? For all of its flaws, it understands that Spider-Man is a youthful hero who is making it up as he goes along.

Growth and change and aging destroy that.

A young reader may enjoy stories about a 30-year-old, married Spider-Man who is a teacher, but they will not relate to him.

The X-Men used to be teenage outcasts and students that other teenagers could relate to. In the movies, they're the teachers, the authority figures! Wha---???
 
stillanerd said:
I wouldn’t get too discouraged, Greg. To paraphrase Jack Nicholson’s character from A Few Good Men, some people just can’t handle the truth. For example, on those same message boards, there was a thread entitled “What Are the Biggest Lies Marvel has Ever Told?” I mentioned that one of them was JMS’ claimed that
Sins Past
(the reason why I black out the title now is because, considering it’s content and overall reaction, I consider it the “unmentionable story” much like the “unmentionable sin”) would fit perfectly within continuity despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which you have exhaustively chronicled. Right away, there were posters who defended that story, one who said that we don’t really know how long Gwen might have been in Europe between ASM #94-ASM #98 and that she could’ve gone to France while she was staying over in London considering the geography of the two countries. Of course, they seemed to have forgotten that Gwen having the affair with Osborn sometime between ASM #61-#62 and having the babies between ASM #94-#98 was the official word from Marvel after the fact and that it was based on Madgoblin’s own theory of how he thought it might fit. However, it’s pretty clear by reading the actual story itself coupled with JMS own comments that he intended the one night stand to take place sometime between ASM #90 and ASM #94 and that she was pregnant somewhere between ASM #115 and ASM #120 because JMS discounted the ASM #116-#118 as a retelling of Spectacular Spider-Man #1, even though that story made references and was tied into current storylines. I guess all one can do is to quietly laugh and not let it get to you.

BTW, I am in total agreement with the Direct Sales Market being a problem, and not just for Spider-Man comics. I listed this a “bonus” in my own personal 10 reasons.
I think putting
Sins Past
in spoiler tags is an amusing idea. I thing, though, just refering to it as That Story might be better... :)
 
Cullen said:
I think putting
Sins Past
in spoiler tags is an amusing idea. I thing, though, just refering to it as That Story might be better... :)


But "That Story" could refer to so very many things these day. Sins Past. Sins Remembered. The Other. Civil War. The Clone Saga. On and on and on.
 
So, Spiderman its going down, that's sad, i dont have many Spider books, Norman Osbourne should've stayed dead, with Bucky and Jason Todd, the death ot those caracters define Spider Man, Cap. Americe and Batman in some way, Gwen and Norman??? WTF???, Spidey its such a iconic caracter, what a waste!!!
 
Superbeasto said:
So, Spiderman its going down, that's sad, i dont have many Spider books, Norman Osbourne should've stayed dead, with Bucky and Jason Todd, the death ot those caracters define Spider Man, Cap. Americe and Batman in some way, Gwen and Norman??? WTF???, Spidey its such a iconic caracter, what a waste!!!

Show some respect. It's "Spider-Man", "Norman Osborn", and "Captain America".
 
Gregatron said:
But "That Story" could refer to so very many things these day. Sins Past. Sins Remembered. The Other. Civil War. The Clone Saga. On and on and on.
Too true.
 
Its not lack of respect, i write fast, errors happen:o
 
Gregatron said:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Spider-Man was created as the ultimate teenage escapism fantasy. He was the super-hero for teens, who WAS a teen.

Turning him into a 30-year-old, married teacher with children flies in the face of that so very, very badly. He's become just another adult superhero with adult problems.

Why do you think Ultimate Spider-Man does so well? For all of its flaws, it understands that Spider-Man is a youthful hero who is making it up as he goes along.

Growth and change and aging destroy that.

A young reader may enjoy stories about a 30-year-old, married Spider-Man who is a teacher, but they will not relate to him.

The X-Men used to be teenage outcasts and students that other teenagers could relate to. In the movies, they're the teachers, the authority figures! Wha---???

Hey, don't me wrong. I completely understand your argument. Ideally, Spider-Man should be between the ages of 16-21 and every other incarnation outside of the comics have depicted him as a college age student to some degree. However, Spider-Man was also, at least to me, about growing up, about becoming a man, although admittedly "coming of age" stories work better if the main character is not yet fully an adult. After all, Peter has been growing up since the beginning (although what's going on currently, that certainly doesn't seem to be the case considering how he doesn't seem to learn anything--publicly unmasking anyone). I will say though that there comes a point in which Spider-Man shouldn't age past the young adult stage otherwise it's really removing himself in terms of being the same age as the average comic book reader. But hey, don't let my little disagreement with you on this point stop you. :)

But "That Story" could refer to so very many things these day. Sins Past. Sins Remembered. The Other. Civil War. The Clone Saga. On and on and on.

Technically, yes. However, considering how the "unmentionable sin" is another term for rape as well as the story itself, I thought refeering to "That Story" as
Sins Past
appropriate. Granted, Gwen wasn't physically raped by Osborn (although many readers assumed she was prior to part 4) but her character certainly was metaphorically by JMS and Marvel, along with Peter, Mary Jane, and yes Norman Osborn as well, not to mention Conway's "The Night Gwen Stacy Died."
 
i loved spidey as a kid and read his past issues of amazing spiderman....but oh man, i'm learning so many disheartening things about him in one day. it really is kind of depressing. i know the majority of what's happening currently in the civil war story because i've just recently read into it, but these cold hard facts are killing it for me.....killing the love i had for spidey. wow
 
Red_Dragon said:
1. Spidey's 'evolution' of powers. Sorry, it's lame. Also, making him into some sort of mystical being who evolves instead of a super-powered photographer is lame.

2. While we're on the subject of super-powered photgraphers, making Pete a high school sciene teacher was terrible move, and a weak plot device.

3. The Iron Spidey costume. So now Peter's trying his best to follow in the footsteps of a drunken playboy who uses his flying armour to fight bad-guys? Nope, that's just not right. Plus the costume just looks stupid.

4. The Clone Saga. Norman Osborn is behind the Clone Saga. Ben Reilly. Ben Reilly's death, just when you start to like him.

5. Sins Past story arc. Gwen would not sleep with bloody Norman Osborn, no matter what the writers say.

6. The unmasking in Civil War #2. This is completely crossing the line, and whoever wrote it is a bad, bad man.

7. Spider-man, the hero who refuses to kill anyone (on purpose anyways) kills Morlun? I mean people like Carnage go through the city on massive killing sprees, with hundreds of innocent victims, and Spidey can't bring himself to kill him. The Green Goblin throws Spiy's first love of a F@#$ING BRIDGE and he doesn't kill the Goblin. But Morlun breaks his wife's arm and he goes ape**** on the guy? Completely out of character for him.

8. Brock selling his symbiote and donating the money to charity, then slitting his wrists when Venom, of all people, KILLS SOMETHING! WTF?

9. On that topic, the ScopoVenom thing. It's basically just a stain on the pages of ASM. Mac Gargan is DEFINATELY not a suitable host for Venom. Period.

10. Joe Quesida. FIRE HIM.

AMEN BRUTHA!!!!
 

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