Val Kilmer as Batman (IYO) - In Your Opinion . . .

[Superwoman Prime]

Take you and your anti-Burton crap out of here, P-G-b.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Take you and your anti-Burton crap out of here, P-G-b.

Ah. Only Burton praise is allowed here, isn't it?

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. It's there to start another silly debate.

Didn't Payaso spank your ass enough?

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. It's there to start another silly debate.

Didn't Payaso spank your ass enough?

No, how could he? I am intellectually untouchable.

 

[Cain]

Still the best live action Bruce Wayne to date in my very humble opinion.

 

[The Guard]

Yeah, not like Keaton. When did Bruce Wayne ever show the behaviour and manners his Batman did in the comics? Never.

It depends on which behaviors and manners you are talking about.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

It depends on which behaviors and manners you are talking about.

Keaton's Bruce Wayne was a complete re-interpretation. There is nothing like the cool easy-going dude Bruce Wayne when in public and even when he uses his real persona I don't think I have ever seen such a behaviour in the comics.

I still think Keaton and Burton misunderstood Batman. They just had this "adult", cynical view "THis guy fights crime in a bat outfit because his parents were murdered? This guy must be seriously insane", while kids would see it like (and that's how Batman was concepted) "If my parents were murdered I would do the same thing. He is cool!".

The same mistake people often make with Superman.
Adults: "With all his powers why doesn't he stop hunger and war in the world? Such an idiot!" That's just the wrong approach.

 

[Cain]

If you're going to hate on Keaton's Wayne then it's only fair to hate on Bale's cause guess what? that was also a re-interpretation. Both of those portrayals were very good to me BTW adaptations are allowed to actually you know adapt things to the medium it's working within.

The genius to Kilmer's approach was that he took elements from Keaton's foundation and mixed them up with lots of elements from the actual comic books. He balanced it out. Both Keaton and Bale played different Bruce Wayne's from the comic version Kilmer is still the closest. But that was the intent they were both supposed to be realistic takes on the character in different ways.

For example look how their public Bruce Wayne's were both displayed. One as an eccentric billionaire (Keaton) there are plenty of those in real life and one as a snobbish billionaire (Bale) there are plenty of those two. But Kilmer brought the nice charming absent minded guy from the comics to life with his public Wayne. His wasn't supposed to be a more realistic take.

 

[Cain]

I totally liked Kilmer's Batman and Bruce Wayne he looked the part unlike Clooney or Keaton for that matter. Only thing bother me when Batman smiled after learning that Chase chose Bruce, why did he have to smile?

I disagree Clooney very much looked both parts if only he didn't have that ceaser cut but he was right on appearance wise. What hurt him was the material he was given.

 

[The Guard]

Keaton's Bruce Wayne was a complete re-interpretation. There is nothing like the cool easy-going dude Bruce Wayne when in public and even when he uses his real persona I don't think I have ever seen such a behaviour in the comics.

The only reinterpretation of Bruce Wayne for BATMAN was the visual element of him, as a less strapping, less "square cut" figure. The rest of it could be found in the source material, from early and "classic" Batman comics to THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

I'm not sure which behaviors you're talking about that you think weren't faithful to Bruce Wayne, can you be a bit more specific? He was very laid back and easygoing in BATMAN. Burton presented him as Wayne had been presented in the 1940's and 50's, and then again in the 70's and 80's. As a more mature playboy with a secret identity. And he presented relevant issues stemming from that concept.

I still think Keaton and Burton misunderstood Batman. They just had this "adult", cynical view "THis guy fights crime in a bat outfit because his parents were murdered? This guy must be seriously insane", while kids would see it like (and that's how Batman was concepted) "If my parents were murdered I would do the same thing. He is cool!".

It's just not that simple. Burton did not depict Batman as insane, but he understood that Batman has issues. Batman has always had issues, Burton simply made them more current and relevant.

Keaton, Kilmer, Clooney, Bale...heck, even Adam West. You can find elements of all the movie Waynes in the comic books.

Other than the obvious eccentricies (which have always existed in some form or another in the source material), I do not see anything truly eccentric about Bruce's presentation of his public side.

 

[Cain]

Other than the obvious eccentricies (which have always existed in some form or another in the source material), I do not see anything truly eccentric about Bruce's presentation of his public side.

He wasn't as sociable as the comics public Wayne you wouldn't even see him coming to a party with a girl on his arm and mingling with the crowd. Even at his own event he was dateless and not really interacting with many people. Both Kilmer and West nailed that in spades. He was more introverted than his comic counterpart the one thing he did have in common with comics public Bruce is that he played absent minded fairly well. Only thing I truly see in common between Bale and the comic Bruce were the private Bruce Wayne at Wayne Manor and the batcave after he returned to Gotham that was spot on. Otherwise he reminded me more of Matt Murdock, Tony Stark and James Bond than anything else.

 

[The Guard]

He wasn't as sociable as the comics public Wayne you wouldn't even see him coming to a party with a girl on his arm and mingling with the crowd.

Since when does being a sociable playboy require you to come to a party with vapid women on each arm? I think you've read too many modern comics and not enough comics featuring the Bruce Wayne of the 70's and the 80's. Seriously, where is it written that Bruce Wayne has to be a complete fop all the time? That is a valid interpretation, but it is also the more modern interpretation of the character. The Bruce Wayne of the 70's and early 80's was a serious social crusader, not just a playboy.

Even at his own event he was dateless and not really interacting with many people.

We see him interacting with Random Old Guy, Vicki and Knox. He went out of his way to speak to a beautiful stranger. He didn't interact with anyone else because the story didn't call for it.

Both Kilmer and West nailed that in spades. He was more introverted than his comic counterpart the one thing he did have in common with comics

When you say introverted, are you talking about the guy who approached a beautiful woman at his charity gambling party and then beds her, what, a day later?

 

[Cain]

Since when does being a sociable playboy require you to come to a party with vapid women on each arm? I think you've read too many modern comics and not enough comics featuring the Bruce Wayne of the 70's and the 80's. Seriously, where is it written that Bruce Wayne has to be a complete fop all the time? That is a valid interpretation, but it is also the more modern interpretation of the character. The Bruce Wayne of the 70's and early 80's was a serious social crusader, not just a playboy.

Actually I'm just starting to catch up with the modern comics as I dropped them after Fugtive ended and styarted collecting them again after Infinite Crisis only to drop them again before Morisson and Dini came on board. I still have yet to read War Crimes and alot of other stuff that happened between '02 and '07. Hell I just read Hush for the first time last year.

The eras I've read the most from were the 70's, 80's and the 90's. The bringing a chick on his arm thing was one example. The mingling with the crowd was another that you only adressed later in your reply as opposed to in this paragraph. We're talking about the same 70's & 80's Batman comics were Bruce Wayne moved around in nice cars and always engaged people with stories and such at events right?

We see him interacting with Random Old Guy, Vicki and Knox. He went out of his way to speak to a beautiful stranger. He didn't interact with anyone else because the story didn't call for it.

The stories in the comics never called for it either the majority of the time. It was just a subtle touch, sometimes we wouldn't even see word bubbles detailing the convo. I get the vibe that you feel like I'm knocking it when it's far from that I absolutely love what Burton/Keaton did with Wayne but to say that they didn't reinterpret certain aspects is a lie my friend.

When you say introverted, are you talking about the guy who approached a beautiful woman at his charity gambling party and then beds her, what, a day later?

I mean more in the reserved sense, he was more like an observer than anything else not really an engager. You could see in his eyes that there were things boiling in his head he just didn't verbally express them. You don't have to be a complete anti social doofus to be an introverted person, I myself am one as well the majority of the time.

 

[The Guard]

The eras I've read the most from were the 70's, 80's and the 90's. The bringing a chick on his arm thing was one example. The mingling with the crowd was another that you only adressed later in your reply as opposed to in this paragraph. We're talking about the same 70's & 80's Batman comics were Bruce Wayne moved around in nice cars and always engaged people with stories and such at events right?

Apparently not. Because as I recall, he didn't always do that in the 1970's an 80's. He had serious social interactions, he didn't always need to be the life of the party or a visible "playboy".

The stories in the comics never called for it either the majority of the time. It was just a subtle touch, sometimes we wouldn't even see word bubbles detailing the convo. I get the vibe that you feel like I'm knocking it when it's far from that I absolutely love what Burton/Keaton did with Wayne but to say that they didn't reinterpret certain aspects is a lie my friend.

You seem to be trying to phrase "not showing an element" (Bruce with women on his arm or the life of the party) as a complete reinterpretation of the character. It just doesn't work that way. You have to look at what those things represent, and then look at how BATMAN brought those elements out in other ways in the context of its story.

I mean more in the reserved sense, he was more like an observer than anything else not really an engager. You could see in his eyes that there were things boiling in his head he just didn't verbally express them. You don't have to be a complete anti social doofus to be an introverted person, I myself am one as well the majority of the time.

I understand where you're coming from. I just think that this is also mostly what Bruce Wayne was like in the 70's and 80's. He spoke softly and carried a big stick. He was fairly quiet in his interactions, and he internalized a lot of things.

The "women on my arm at every event" Bruce Wayne showed up in the late 80's for the most part, and became a staple of Batman comics in the early 90's. Before that, he was a hell of a lot more...shall we say "respectable"?

 

[Cain]

Apparently not. Because as I recall, he didn't always do that in the 1970's an 80's. He had serious social interactions, he didn't always need to be the life of the party or a visible "playboy".

Never did I say he was always the life of the party but you'd always see him sitting in tables with people or carrying on long conversations with people who approached him. As you yourself said, serious social interactions. Even during the 80's and 90's he wasn't the life of the party but he wasn't a guy who wouldn't socialize and hug the walls either not saying that Keaton was BTW just incase you misinterpret that.

You seem to be trying to phrase "not showing an element" (Bruce with women on his arm or the life of the party) as a complete reinterpretation of the character. It just doesn't work that way. You have to look at what those things represent, and then look at how BATMAN brought those elements out in other ways in the context of its story.

Then you're not understanding where I'm coming from cause it has nothing to do with that one element alone. In BATMAN he was asked a question by a subordinate and gave a short and brief answer where as the comics version would've made small talk. When Vale asked him a question he also kept it simple and observed her before deciding to engage her in convo. In the 70's and 80's comics he would've picked her up right there on the spot (Ie: Silver St. Cloud).

I'll grant you that we did see elements of a sociable Wayne during the scene in the arsenal room with Knox and Vale but he wasn't as sociable as his comic counterpart. That's where the reinterpretation came in. He was made a little more realistic in that sense as he seemed to be a guy who always kept his guard up and not so much out to play the fool.

I understand where you're coming from. I just think that this is also mostly what Bruce Wayne was like in the 70's and 80's. He spoke softly and carried a big stick. He was fairly quiet in his interactions, and he internalized a lot of things.

Well he's never been bombastic in any era but I wouldn't say he was fairly quiet in his interactions either he was pretty involved once somebody got him open in the 70's and 80's comics.

The "women on my arm at every event" Bruce Wayne showed up in the late 80's for the most part, and became a staple of Batman comics in the early 90's. Before that, he was a hell of a lot more...shall we say "respectable"?

He always has been respectable that never really changed, he's a kind philantroper with an aura of "airhead" around him, he's a nice charming . Though yes in the 90's they did begin to give him certain outrageous "frat boy" antics to participate in but those were pretty scarce and it was never to the point that it felt unnatural and like a totally different guy. BB was the first time I've ever seened him be an obnoxious jerk I did like that and understood it was made that way cause the tone of that film called for neo realism but that was another reinterpretation.

 

[Two-Face]

 

[theMan-Bat]

I've often wondered why Val didn't dye his hair black, given what a stickler he is for details. You ever see Val in Willow? Had his hair black in that film, take away the hair extensions attached to the back of his head and put him in a business suit, he would have looked almost exactly like the classic drawings of Bruce Wayne.

That blonde highlighted Val Kilmer Top Gunish hair was one of the biggest things that kept me from excepting him as Bruce Wayne/Batman, and not just Val Kilmer. Mr. Top Gun.

Michael Keaton on the other hand had the black hair and looked and acted grim, tortured - complete with the glare. Christian Bale is also good at the grimness. And that playboy routine is just a performance, just a mask, it is to conceal his true self. Batman is the real person. Bruce Wayne is just a mask. It's been that way ever since his parents were murdered. He's a grim guy at heart.

 

[Parents-Gun-Bat]

Michael Keaton on the other hand had the black hair and looked and acted grim, tortured - complete with the glare. Christian Bale is also good at the grimness. And that playboy routine is just a performance, just a mask, it is to conceal his true self. Batman is the real person. Bruce Wayne is just a mask. It's been that way ever since his parents were murdered. He's a grim guy at heart.

Says who? Batman has not always been portrayed as a GRIM GUY. Sometimes he just played an ACT actually that was how it was until a few years ago. "Bruce Wayne is a mask, Batman is the real person" is just dogmatic and one-dimensional.
Batman Begins did it well. There was the act "Batman" and the act "Bruce Wayne" and the real person.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Says who?

Says Bill Finger, Michael L. Fleisher author of the 1976 Batman Encyclopedia, Frank Miller, Doug Moench, Paul Dini, etc.

Batman has not always been portrayed as a GRIM GUY.

In the earliest Batman stories from 1939 Batman was portrayed as a grim guy and the Bruce Wayne bored playboy routine was just an act.

Sometimes he just played an ACT actually that was how it was until a few years ago.

Over the years there have been radically different interpretations, different versions of Batman so each of us today has a highly personal view of who Batman is and favor those Batman stories that reinforce our view, our Batman. DC today publishes two or more Batman projects simultaneously that present radically different Batman's. Frank Miller's All-Star Batman (taking place on Earth-31) and Grant Morrison's Silver Age-y Batman run (taking place on New Earth) are two examples.

"Bruce Wayne is a mask, Batman is the real person" is just dogmatic and one-dimensional.

Not at all. As Paul Dini says, there are really three persona's. There's the playboy/philanthropist Bruce Wayne persona the public sees at social events and business meetings, the hard-as-nails Batman persona that criminals and superheroes see, and the private Batman that few know - only Alfred and his Robin's, he's rarely let Gordon see that side of him. And thats who he really is deep down. The wounded traumatized man-child.

Batman Begins did it well. There was the act "Batman" and the act "Bruce Wayne" and the real person.

And the real person is also Batman.

 

[El Payaso]

Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. It's there to start another silly debate.

His entiere virtual life is based on spamming.

Didn't Payaso spank your ass enough?

Given the feebleness of his arguments, it’s more like he spanks his own ass.

No, how could he? I am intellectually untouchable.

That's true. You're not touchable through intellect.

Keaton's Bruce Wayne was a complete re-interpretation. There is nothing like the cool easy-going dude Bruce Wayne when in public and even when he uses his real persona I don't think I have ever seen such a behaviour in the comics.

Keaton preserved the most essential aspects of Bruce Wayne but never forgetting he’s an obssessive traumatized man.

I still think Keaton and Burton misunderstood Batman.

You’re the only one accepting one fraction of what Batman is as a total and then misundertanding the rest of it.

They just had this "adult", cynical view "THis guy fights crime in a bat outfit because his parents were murdered? This guy must be seriously insane", while kids would see it like (and that's how Batman was concepted) "If my parents were murdered I would do the same thing. He is cool!".

You’re basically claiming that Batman should be kids material.

I can’t care less of what kids should or would think as long as the material has a serious and complex treatment.

Batman IS a “guy that fights crime in a bat outfit because his parents were murdered.” But you’re the only one using the word “insane” to refer to Batman.

I encourage you to accept what Batman is and accept your own adulthood.

The same mistake people often make with Superman.

You’re making the mistake of equalize both characters yourself.

Adults: "With all his powers why doesn't he stop hunger and war in the world? Such an idiot!" That's just the wrong approach.

It seems no matter the character, reality and maturity are always the wrong approach for you.

Which is also appliable to the post you’re involved with, either writing or reading them.

 

[The Guard]

The man had brown hair when he played Wayne in FOREVER. Where does this "blonde" stuff come from?

 

[theMan-Bat]

The man had brown hair when he played Wayne in FOREVER. Where does this "blonde" stuff come from?

He had the blonde highlights in his hair.

 

[Spoonman]

That blonde highlighted Val Kilmer Top Gunish hair was one of the biggest things that kept me from excepting him as Bruce Wayne/Batman, and not just Val Kilmer. Mr. Top Gun.

Michael Keaton on the other hand had the black hair and looked and acted grim, tortured - complete with the glare. Christian Bale is also good at the grimness. And that playboy routine is just a performance, just a mask, it is to conceal his true self. Batman is the real person. Bruce Wayne is just a mask. It's been that way ever since his parents were murdered. He's a grim guy at heart.

Weird, I don't think Val Kilmer looked that blond on FOREVER, it sure was blonde but it looked more brownish to me, but definetly not as highlighted as that pic from Top Gun. And by looking at those pictures I confirm once more my feel that Kilmer still is the most acurate representation of Wayne in real life, of course IMO, since everyone can imagine Wayne out of the comics their own way. And for the record I'm just talking about the phisical aspects not the acting, Keats is my favourite performance wise.

 

[The Guard]

He had the blonde highlights in his hair.

That's a picture of Val Kilmer posing for a magazine cover. Brown hair, like any hair, appears to change with light. I don't remember him ever looking blonde during FOREVER.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Weird, I don't think Val Kilmer looked that blond on FOREVER, it sure was blonde but it looked more brownish to me, but definetly not as highlighted as that pic from Top Gun.

Maybe. The lighting in Forever is weird - alot of blues, reds, greens and neon, alot darker lighting than Top Gun.

And by looking at those pictures I confirm once more my feel that Kilmer still is the most acurate representation of Wayne in real life, of course IMO, since everyone can imagine Wayne out of the comics their own way.

And since everyone draws Wayne out differently in the comics.

And for the record I'm just talking about the phisical aspects not the acting, Keats is my favourite performance wise.

Mine too. But I'm not trying to put down Val Kilmer. He was perfect as Jim Morrison in the Doors movie and as John Holmes in Wonderland and he was great in Red Planet as well. He's a great actor - his and Joel Schumacher's is just not my favourite version of Batman.