I don't think Veidt is ever showed to be scared, panicking, etc (Until the giant Dr. Manhattan walks through his wall). His plan is very rational, well developed, and calmly executed. It's not Veidt's plan to save the world that failed. It's the longlasting effects he hopes to have on the world.
Of course Veidt's plan is flawed. It assumes that a post-9/11-type unification would last indefinitely. He temporarily warded off THIS nuclear disaster, but just like Manhattan says, "Nothing ever ends".
I disagree. Realistically Doctor Manhattan would know nothing of whether Veidt's plan would work or not, since he leaves Earth and presumably doesn't come back. He's not omniscient; his ability to see the future is limited to his own future experiences.
Even so, anybody could have given that warning, which I basically interpret as Manhattan telling Veidt that there is still a lot of work to be done. I wouldn't dare to argue that Veidt's peace can last forever; that would simply be impossible. But it seems to me it could easily last for centuries--at the very least, a couple generations. But even failing that, there's no doubt that it prevented an imminent nuclear war. So even if true peace only lasts a few years, the danger of mutually-assured destruction will have been significantly reduced.
Veidt killed half of New York. If he hadn't, the USSR would have killed all of New York. Even at this basic level, I think Veidt is more than redeemed.
Let me preface this thread with a simple statement: I love Watchmen and I think it's quite possibly the best comic story of all time, perhaps second only to Miracle Man and V for Vendetta (which are of course also Alan Moore).
I put this in the "Movie" section because I believe it merges with the conversation people are having about the ending, the squid, and what needs to be kept intact and what can be changed/omitted without affecting the overall story (plus I want this thread to have more traffic -- there I said it, again).
For those unfamiliar with the Watchmen ending GTFO of the thread...just kidding...spoiler beware.
...The heroes Rorschach and Nite-Owl, soon followed by Silk Specter and Dr. Manhattan, descend upon Ozymandias citadel just in time to catch him in the final moments of his plan. Viedt (Ozymandias) admits to killing The Comedian, Edward Blake, to cover his actions. Viedt has mastered the art of teleportation with a price, everything he teleports dies and blows up, so that's just what he uses it for. He transports an "alien" squid which is really a genetically altered clone of a psychic. His death upon arrival in New York kills millions and subjects millions more to psychic torture for the rest of their lives. Viedt justifies his mass murder by saying that it will unite the world against a common, yet fictional, alien foe. The immediate news justifies his claims as Russia puts aside their differences, but perhaps only momentarily. The heroes, in philosophical stalemate with Viedt, allow him to life.
Here is where my problem starts.
Viedt's killings are not unlike a natural disaster, say a Tsunami or a massive Hurricane, of which we have seen several over the years. True, his scheme is to trick people into thinking there is a threat bigger than their petty squabbles, but has this not always been the case? Climate change, mortality, poverty, world hunger, depleting resources have been known threats to our existence since the dawn of civilization yet have prove ineffectual at causing us to lay down our arms.
It seems to me Veidt is simply a sociopath, a mass murdering psycho and not much else. I think his position as the "world's smartest man" is more his own arrogance projected, and while resourceful he obviously lacks wisdom. To illustrate this I would point to the first meeting Captain Metropolis called where the Comedian verbally abused Veidt in front of the remaining heroes. It seems Veidt is a pride driven man, and this scheme of his may be no more than a desire to enact some very eloborate revenge upon Blake, perhaps because he was jealous of how well Blake understood the world and how easily he chose to ignore morals. Blake had a command of the course of history Veidt only dreamed of. Blake killed Presidents, stopped scandals and won wars without the powers of Dr. Manhattan or the wealth a prominence of Veidt. Veidt must have been angered by this immensely.
I think some attention also needs to be drawn towards Dr. Manhattan. Osterman was becoming more and more disillusioned with humanity from the beginning of the book. The accusations of causing cancer seemed to distance him from those around him and began the slow descent of the nail in the coffin with respect to him leaving at the end as he said he would. The last question Veidt asks him is "[did it] work out in the end?" to which Manhattan replies "Nothing ends, nothing ever ends". Remember, it has been revealed Dr. Manhattan knows, intuitively, the future, so he would know whether Veidt's plan was a success or ultimately a failure. His words seem ominous.
I almost see Dr. Manhattan as the true villain, a man so fed up with humans keeping him back, that he is willing to leave their fate in the hands of a madman like Veidt.
Sure, we know that Veidt's plan worked momentarily, the book says as much, but what we don't know is how long it will last. Like floods, tsunamis and hurricanes there is a moment where the world recollects itself and united, but after that moment has past we renew our old ways. Veidt seems more than short sighted in this respect. If the hostilies renew again how many times will Veidt repeat his experiment until he deems it a failure, and how many lives will he claim in the process?
For this reason I'm not sure the squid is all that important. The squid to me seems to be it's method of commenting on the comic book medium, which is prone to using far fetched villains, like Starro (who the Squid resembles) in it's villainous plots. It could be a space laser, it could be a mysterious Cloverfield type monster. It doesn't matter. The point to me all goes back to "Who Watches the Watchmen". The notion that if you put all your faith into oversized talking atomic bombs and power hungry vigilante's this is how they will repay you. The constant theme of Alan Moore's books: the dangers of totalitarism, fascism and power hungry politicians.
But you can't compare Destruction caused by an extraterrestrial/transdeminsional creation to that caused by a Hurricane/Tsunami/etc. simply because the latter doesn't offer something you can fight against.
Humankind requires competition, it requires rivalry and it is that aspect of humanity that feeds Veidt's plan.
No matter what, you can not kill Hurricanes, you can not kill Tsunami's - Mother Nature is not a feasible opponent. An alien is. An alien race is. An other-dimensional race is.
The only way Humankind will live in Harmony is if there is if there is a reason for humankind to realize they are the same species - Veidt does that.
But you can't compare Destruction caused by an extraterrestrial/transdeminsional creation to that caused by a Hurricane/Tsunami/etc. simply because the latter doesn't offer something you can fight against.
You CAN fight against climate change, poverty, world hunger, mortality...all those things are things we have influence over.
Humankind requires competition, it requires rivalry and it is that aspect of humanity that feeds Veidt's plan.
No matter what, you can not kill Hurricanes, you can not kill Tsunami's - Mother Nature is not a feasible opponent. An alien is. An alien race is. An other-dimensional race is.
Bullsh**. There was a time in our history where a Hurricane seemed as otherworldly as a giant squid, in fact people believes, wholeheartedly (and some still do) that there were times in our history when Giant Squids did attack us, and used that as a justification to fight one another.
The only way Humankind will live in Harmony is if there is if there is a reason for humankind to realize they are the same species - Veidt does that.
Humans know they are the same species. Always have, always will. Even in the days of slavery, documentation by slave owners call their slaves "people" despite the fact that the system of slavery treated them as property. No many people were so objectly stupid as to really, truly believe slaves were actually sub-human, that was justification created after the fact to ease our conscience and convince us what we were doing was morally a-okay...even though economic forces are what really drove it.
If an alien attacked us yes we might be scared for while, but eventually we'd fight eachother again. Whether it was because different countries felt more/less threatened, or perhaps the Russians would feel their alien plan was better than ours, something would fuel our internal competition again.
Also Veidt's plan naturally fuels the military and the creation of weaponry, meaning more countries would find more excuses to make bombs, shore up defense. Unity Smunity.
Think about Hitler for a minute, he was one man who viewed the world in a profoundly different light than every one else. Same with Osama Bin Laden, and arguably the same with Stalin. What would happen, say, if one country's leader got it in his head that the alien had the right idea by wiping out America. Maybe he'd scapegoat another country for that attack. No, it doesn't have to be their fault, but then again the Jews weren't really to blame for what the Nazi's had people believe either.
We've had plenty of chances at unity, and for a brief time, we have united. We united, briefly after the dropping of the Atomic Bomb (hence Rorschach's obsession with Truman and the mushroom cloud left by Manhattan). We thought there was now a problem, the creation of a weapon so destructive it could wipe us out, that we had to bring about peace to stop it. It failed, our humanity got the better of us and we entered the Cold War. Now maybe Veidt did manage to stop the Cold War permenantly. Maybe Russia now would be our allies, but someone, down the line wouldn't be.
nothing ends, nothing ever ends can be seen in two ways.
1. The plan fails eventually and conflict continues...
2. After any form of conflict, life will prevail in one shape or another and move on.
Aidrian merely upset the balance and sacrificed a few in what would be a collosal nuclear war (apparently although there is no indication it was going to get that bad).
Yes, there will always be conflict but that does not mean there should always be conflict on that scale. The scale is completely dependant on the weapons used. Maybe osterman realised what aidrian did and he was tipping the balance and removed himself from the equation (he really should have gotten rid of the nuclear threat as well).
Still, if nothing ever ends, then life will always prevail in sinusoidal stages of conflict and peace.
Veidt killed half of New York. If he hadn't, the USSR would have killed all of New York. Even at this basic level, I think Veidt is more than redeemed.
How do u know that? Remember, we lived cold war. That really happened in real life.
Did USSR killed all NY population? Or USA killed all Moscow population?
No.
Point is, Veidt prevent a possibility, not a real fact. He didnt travel to the future, saw what happened, returns and create a plan. He didnt see future. He is the most inteligent man on Earth, but he is also nuts.
Everybody thinks Rorschach is crazy (and, well, he is too), but he was there to punish bad guys. Never to hurt inocent ppl. Thats why he would never agree with it.
Strangely Rorshach opposes Veidt's plan, but aproves of the bombing of Hiroshima. There are alot of parrallells betweens these two events. Both events killing millions to supposedly save the lives of millions more. Theorectilcy the acts are the same, and yet he veiws one as an act of villiany and one as an act of heroism. I wonder if it is because Veidt kills Americans? and the U.S. bombed japan?
How do u know that? Remember, we lived cold war. That really happened in real life.
Did USSR killed all NY population? Or USA killed all Moscow population?
No.
Point is, Veidt prevent a possibility, not a real fact. He didnt travel to the future, saw what happened, returns and create a plan. He didnt see future. He is the most inteligent man on Earth, but he is also nuts.
Everybody thinks Rorschach is crazy (and, well, he is too), but he was there to punish bad guys. Never to hurt inocent ppl. Thats why he would never agree with it.
Rorschach harms plenty of innocent people in the course of WATCHMEN. Bar patrons and cops specifically. And, in the opening chapters, he talks about Harry Truman dropping the bomb to save American lives, even at the cost of the lives of Japanese civilians. Rorschach's black and white world view isn't as defined as he thinks it is.
I do agree that Veidt's "solution" is short lived at best and is going to need constant attention. In many ways, I think Veidt is going to be undone by his own comparison to Alexander and the "brilliance" of his Gordian Knot solution. Veidt with his position and influence had many ways to diffuse the situation over the years through philanthropy, diplomacy, cultural exchange, etc. Ways that required hard work and drudgery and maybe a set back or two. Ways that probably weren't as "brilliant" and rewarding to his own ego, but perhaps were more sustainable.
I do think that Moore is explicitly making the point that Adrian's plan has serious flaws and is a temporary solution.
Am I only one in this damn forum who thinks the ending of watchmen is one of the worst endings in comic book history? I'd like to punch Veidt, Dr. Manhatten, and Nite Owl in the face for their ****ed up stupidity, and I'd like to punch Silver Spectre in the taint for being a ****ish *****.....that ending is bogus and I wish Batman and Superman were there to kick their asses and show them what heroes really are
Am I only one in this damn forum who thinks the ending of watchmen is one of the worst endings in comic book history? I'd like to punch Veidt, Dr. Manhatten, and Nite Owl in the face for their ****ed up stupidity, and I'd like to punch Silver Spectre in the taint for being a ****ish *****.....that ending is bogus and I wish Batman and Superman were there to kick their asses and show them what heroes really are
lol. I thought Rorschach should have killed Veidt, but i think even Batman/Superman would hesistate in that situation.
What i never got: why didn't the heroes just punish Veidt himself, but not reveal the plan? That way justice would be served, but war would be averted. Like a secret execution or something. If veidt was so selfless, etc. he would offer himself up for punishment afterwords
lol. I thought Rorschach should have killed Veidt, but i think even Batman/Superman would hesistate in that situation.
What i never got: why didn't the heroes just punish Veidt himself, but not reveal the plan? That way justice would be served, but war would be averted. Like a secret execution or something. If veidt was so selfless, etc. he would offer himself up for punishment afterwords
As Viedt says, they can't expose him because it will undo everything or kill him, because that will risk subsequent investigation. I'm sure they could make something up, but Viedt also says he now needs to try and help rebuild the world. Without that factor, nothing would get done, and his attack would be pointless.
(plus I want this thread to have more traffic -- and subjects millions more to psychic torture for the rest of their lives. Viedt justifies his mass murder by saying
When natural disasters or terrorists' attacks occur, people start the panic. But when the massive murder of millions of people happens in one day with the appearance of huge unknown force like giant squid, they stay depressed even after decades have passed.
Everybody still remembers the genocide of Jews, right? But what would be, if all of them were publicly killed in one day? People would have been scared for generations.
The same is with Veidt's plan. Don't forget, he is revealed in the graphic novel as one of the smartest men in the world, and his intelligence can't be just described as arrogance. He is the destructor of old and at the same time the creator of new.
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