Should Veidt live or die?

[Sandman138]

Heroism has nothing to do with war. Either you totally defeat the enemy, or they totally defeat you. You are either willing to do whatever it takes to win or you are not.

I agree, but Mysterio doesn't seem to. He calls Truman's actions heroic, and given his reasons, I'd have to assume that the Blitz would fit his definition of heroism as well.

 

[brobdingnag]

I agree, but Mysterio doesn't seem to. He calls Truman's actions heroic, and given his reasons, I'd have to assume that the Blitz would fit his definition of heroism as well.

Your comparison is flawed. Japan and Germany initiated WWII, while the US bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima (two highly important strategic targets by the way) was a response to that agression. By bombing large civilian areas of Britain, the Germans made the response of killing thousands of civilians in Dresden, and Hiroshima a virtual certainty. Their mistake was simply trying to prevent us from entering the war when they should have continued to attack the US on the mainland once they had the advantage. Also, Mysterio, like most people in the world, probably places more importance on the lives of those who are members of his own culture than the lives of those outside his culture. With that in mind, I'm sure that many German people did indeed see the Blitz as heroic. There are plenty of people in the world who see Osama Bin Laden as a Heroic figure (including the American left, one of the few culural sub-groups who value the lives of their enemies more than their own).

 

[Mysterio]

So was The Blitz a heroic action?

don't be absurd. of course not. you are trying to claim all of these actions, causes, motives, etc., as equal when they are not.

 

[Mysterio]

I agree, but Mysterio doesn't seem to. He calls Truman's actions heroic, and given his reasons, I'd have to assume that the Blitz would fit his definition of heroism as well.

can you show me where i called Truman's actions heroic, or are you content on making things up?

 

[Sandman138]

don't be absurd. of course not. you are trying to claim all of these actions, causes, motives, etc., as equal when they are not.

So then. It has nothing to do with the fact that Truman was elected by a system that gives him authority through the consent of the governed? It has everything to do with cause, motivation, and actions. So then, why are Veidt's actions, causes, and motivations less just than Truman's?

 

[Sandman138]

can you show me where i called Truman's actions heroic, or are you content on making things up?

no, i don't. i feel the exact same way: Truman was a hero and Veidt is a villain. i don't find the two acts or the two moralities comparable at all. again, to someone like the authors who are making an anti-nuke, anti-war statement then yes, i can see that they would view the two things as the same.

That clear enough for you? Don't take your lapses of memory out on me.

 

[Sandman138]

Your comparison is flawed. Japan and Germany initiated WWII, while the US bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima (two highly important strategic targets by the way) was a response to that agression.

Yes and no. It was a response to the aggression of Pearl Harbor. The Blitz was 1940, America didn't confront the Axis until 1941 when we were attacked. America as a nation really could have given a **** about Europe or ethnic cleansing. As to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan was about ready to surrender before we bombed them, and with the help of Russia, the loss of American lives would probably not have been as bad as conventional US history says. But one big thing happened before we bombed Hiroshima: Potsdam. Truman had trouble dealing with Stalin, and he was using the atomic bomb as leverage at the conference. A few days later we dropped the bomb. I personally believe we did it as a way to keep ourselves out of debt with Stalin and to send a message to the USSR. Regardless of motivations, after Hiroshima, surrender was guaranteed, which makes Nagasaki absolutely abhorrent.

By bombing large civilian areas of Britain, the Germans made the response of killing thousands of civilians in Dresden, and Hiroshima a virtual certainty. Their mistake was simply trying to prevent us from entering the war when they should have continued to attack the US on the mainland once they had the advantage. Also, Mysterio, like most people in the world, probably places more importance on the lives of those who are members of his own culture than the lives of those outside his culture. With that in mind, I'm sure that many German people did indeed see the Blitz as heroic. There are plenty of people in the world who see Osama Bin Laden as a Heroic figure (including the American left, one of the few culural sub-groups who value the lives of their enemies more than their own).

This has kind of been my point. Part of living in a nuclear age, as far as I'm concerned, is the realization of scale. Where once, a country was large, the scale of devastation forces one to pull back and see the effects of actions on a global level. In my mind, what makes Osymandias somewhat heroic, in his own way, was his ability to look beyond his own culture and see the greater good of the world at large. And as part of the American left, I can tell you right now that Osama Bin Laden is a right bastard and I would love to see him wiped off the face of the Earth, but being realistic about how our actions and allegiances in the Middle East are affecting our interests is just as important if not more so. We had a chance to catch the bastard, we blew it in a quest to bring democracy to a region in a way that has resulted in balkanization because we applied western mindset to a foreign area, the follies of absolute morality.

 

[brobdingnag]

Well that is where we are going to disagree. I value my own culture FAR more than any other. By extention, I value American lives far more than the lives of non-Americans. I have no problem with the US using nuclear weapons against our enemies rather than invading. Does that mean I think we should immediately start letting the missles fly? No, but a demonstration of just exactly what we are capble of can serve as a good object lesson that even the most deluded religious nut can appreaciate.

 

[Overman27pj]

Also, Mysterio, like most people in the world, probably places more importance on the lives of those who are members of his own culture than the lives of those outside his culture. With that in mind, I'm sure that many German people did indeed see the Blitz as heroic.

I believe you would be hard pressed to find rational people who thought the holocaust was heroic.

 

[Overman27pj]

Well that is where we are going to disagree. I value my own culture FAR more than any other. By extention, I value American lives far more than the lives of non-Americans. I have no problem with the US using nuclear weapons against our enemies rather than invading. Does that mean I think we should immediately start letting the missles fly? No, but a demonstration of just exactly what we are capble of can serve as a good object lesson that even the most deluded religious nut can appreaciate.

You must also keep in mind that it is not the bombs falling directly on people that is feared...it is the resulting effect on the earth, that is likely to kill most everyone.

 

[brobdingnag]

I believe you would be hard pressed to find rational people who thought the holocaust was heroic.

Rational...no, but many MANY muslims believe just that. Of course we all know what happens when you put too much value in spiritual beliefs don't we? Your own messiah failed to deliver on his promise that your sect would be taken from Earth by the Xists on July 5th, 1998. Where is your precious Dobbs Now?!?!!?

 

[brobdingnag]

You must also keep in mind that it is not the bombs falling directly on people that is feared...it is the resulting effect on the earth, that is likely to kill most everyone.

Oddly, that did not result from the only two examples we have to date of the use of nuclear weapons. I never said "nuke em all and let G'broagfran sort them out." I support the use of tactical nuclear weapons for the teaching of object lessons. Two totally different things.

 

[Sandman138]

Rational...no, but many MANY muslims believe just that. Of course we all know what happens when you put too much value in spiritual beliefs don't we? Your own messiah failed to deliver on his promise that your sect would be taken from Earth by the Xists on July 5th, 1998. Where is your precious Dobbs Now?!?!!?

It was read upside down. X-Day will occur in the year of 8661. Duh.

 

[Mysterio]

So then. It has nothing to do with the fact that Truman was elected by a system that gives him authority through the consent of the governed? It has everything to do with cause, motivation, and actions. So then, why are Veidt's actions, causes, and motivations less just than Truman's?

once again, you are comparing apples and oranges. the authority vested in a head of state by the governed (and in a time of war) versus some random person taking it upon himself to be the arbiter, judge, jury, and executioner, without anyone's authority, and existing outside the rule of law. it's a laughable comparison.

 

[Mysterio]

That clear enough for you? Don't take your lapses of memory out on me.

i said Truman was a hero - that judgment is based on the man and encompasses his entire tenure as president. you claimed I said Truman's action was heroic, which is something i never said.

is that clear enough for you? you'd be better served to not try and put words in my mouth.

 

[Mysterio]

I believe you would be hard pressed to find rational people who thought the holocaust was heroic.

now, now. you wouldn't want to fall into Rorschach's black and white absolutes, would you?

 

[Overman27pj]

once again, you are comparing apples and oranges. the authority vested in a head of state by the governed (and in a time of war) versus some random person taking it upon himself to be the arbiter, judge, jury, and executioner, without anyone's authority, and existing outside the rule of law. it's a laughable comparison.

We have been down this same road before. You are talking in circles.

The question from here is how does it matter what a person's authority is to the people who get bombed?

Do you think the citizens of Hiroshima felt better than the citizens of New York simply because Truman had 'authority' to kill them and Viedt did not?

 

[Gilpesh]

now, now. you wouldn't want to fall into Rorschach's black and white absolutes, would you?

Calling Truman a hero and Veidt a villain is black and white absolutes.

You've proven yourself to be thinking exactly like Rorschach. Funny, at least he saw enough of the good in Veidt's plan to let Manhattan kill him.

 

[Overman27pj]

 

[Sandman138]

i said Truman was a hero - that judgment is based on the man and encompasses his entire tenure as president. you claimed I said Truman's action was heroic, which is something i never said.

is that clear enough for you? you'd be better served to not try and put words in my mouth.

Yould be better served to clarify your position. The debate was over Truman's authorizing the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in comparison to Veidt's action of destroying New York. You're post had clear implications and everyone here has been arguing under those implications. Instead of clarifying your position - which I'm still not sure of perhaps that Truman's other actions as President outweigh the action of bombing civilians, or that it was okay because Japanese are not Americans, or that it was okay because Truman was president of America instead of just some man, or that it was okay because Truman saved X lives by killing Y while Veidt saved X lives by killing X - you have instead vaguely defended some murky semblance of a position and called anyone who disagreed with you naive, a moral relativist, and anti-war/anti-nuke. I'm happy to debate your premises, if you would be kind enough to actually lay them out in a logical manner and stop with the thinly veiled insults.

 

[Sandman138]

once again, you are comparing apples and oranges. the authority vested in a head of state by the governed (and in a time of war) versus some random person taking it upon himself to be the arbiter, judge, jury, and executioner, without anyone's authority, and existing outside the rule of law. it's a laughable comparison.

So once again: what makes the Blitz, a bombing enacted to achieve victory in a war and save German lives that was enacted by Hitler a man who was given authority by a democratic election and the will of the governed, an unheroic act?

 

[Motown Marvel]

i said Truman was a hero - that judgment is based on the man and encompasses his entire tenure as president. you claimed I said Truman's action was heroic, which is something i never said.

is that clear enough for you? you'd be better served to not try and put words in my mouth.

so you think truman is a hero but condemn the action that defined his presidency?

once again, you are comparing apples and oranges. the authority vested in a head of state by the governed (and in a time of war) versus some random person taking it upon himself to be the arbiter, judge, jury, and executioner, without anyone's authority, and existing outside the rule of law. it's a laughable comparison.

so, are you okay with truman's actions because he legaly had the power to do so...or because his actions were the right thing to do?

 

[Mysterio]

We have been down this same road before. You are talking in circles.

The question from here is how does it matter what a person's authority is to the people who get bombed?

what matters is one has been given the power to make those decisions and to defend a country by any means within his arsenal while the other hasn't.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


the president is sworn by oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution, and it is the only oath of office included in the Constitution. no one has given that authority to Veidt or any of the other "heroes." you and others on here are trying to equate the two, as well as the authors with their prevalent use of "who watches the watchmen?"

 

[Mysterio]

so you think truman is a hero but condemn the action that defined his presidency?

so, are you okay with truman's actions because he legaly had the power to do so...or because his actions were the right thing to do?

i never said i condemned the action. good grief, all of this either/or, black and white from those who are ridicule what they perceive as black and white views. quite ironic. no, i don't condemn the action; it was necessary, and i approve of what he did. the president is charged with the defense and protection of this country. there was no other option than defeating the enemy.

 

[Mysterio]

So once again: what makes the Blitz, a bombing enacted to achieve victory in a war and save German lives that was enacted by Hitler a man who was given authority by a democratic election and the will of the governed, an unheroic act?

you can't possibly be serious. again, you are trying to go for a base-level comparison, as if everything is equal. let's see...an oppressive, totalitarian government with the goal of world domination and the eradication of an ethnic and religious group(s) through murder, versus delivering defeat to an enemy of liberty and freedom through an act of self-preservation.

what do you think makes them different?