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Discussion in 'PC' started by Malice, Aug 19, 2006.
Wasteland is the best RPG of all time.
Isn't that the game that's 20 years old?
If so, yeah. Electronic Arts was good back in those days, and this was kind of a pre-Fallout, but... I don't know too much about it other than what The Underdogs accumulate.
I'm not going to even play anything so ancient.
Absolutely amazing game. Sadly unknown of by most gamers, played by even less. Ah well, their loss.
More people know about the sequels in spirit... The Fallout series. Equally amazing games.
Fallout sucked compared the to almighty WasteLand!
Hahhaa, no way. The Fallout series is amazing. Even Tactics is a very solid game.
Fallout is actually getting another iteration!
We can hop, again, on Fallout III someday seeing the light of day.
Van Buren my ass.
Van Buren wouldn't have been any good anyways, a lot of guys working on that game have talked about it since and it just would have been way too rushed and under done, not a real Fallout game. The Bethesda Fallout III should be much better than Van Buren was going to be, hopefully.
Bethesda will do it justice. It sounds like it'll be the next Deus Ex.
Bethesda couldn't even do it's own IP justice. I'm willing to give them a chance and say that Oblivion was a fluke, but they should have given it to Obsidian, at least that place is crawling with ex-Black Isle guys who would have done it right.
Yeah, honestly. Bethesda isn't out to maim the Fallout license. At the very least, we're going to get a game that had people who actually cared and tried behind it. Can't ask for much more than that.
Truly. I have faith in Bethesda. This guy was let down that Oblivion got more interesting as you went along, I actually liked it.
Fallout 3 will rule.
Oh please, get over the fact that it was a hyped Xbox360 title for a second. Oblivion getting more interesting as you go along is one of the dumbest things I've heard on these boards, and with people like topdawg and riz having posted here before, that's quite an accomplishment. What exactly made it more interesting as you went along?
Was it the huge canon breaks?
Was it the realization that no matter what you did, you'd never be any more powerful relative to your enemies? That, at best, you could only level up and match their strength, but if you levelled up the wrong skills (like sneak and security for instance) you could forget about that as well?
Was it the fact that you may as well give up on being a thief, because there's nothing in homes worth stealing until level 20, at which point you no longer have any need to break into houses anyways?
Was it the fact that you may as well just stop going into dungeons, because the loot is scaled so that you never find anything especially better or worse than what you already have equipped, and can never find any sort of valuables until you reach a point in the game where they're no longer valuable to you?
Was it the realization that there was no reason to explore, because in Oblivion there are no artifacts hidden, no loot cache's, no dungeons with an interesting story?
Maybe it was that as you progressed through the game, you realized that the game only had one environment to offer you, and that somehow made it more interesting?
The game punishes you for making progress with your character. The game makes it impossible for thieves and mages to complete the game after a certain point, because of the horribly done scaling system. Period, no argument or debate about it. Looking at your tag, I can see that you've mostly only used a warrior type character, so it's no big surprise that you haven't encountered these issues yet (save for the obvious loot/equipment scaling on NPCs and bandits, which means you're either still below level 10 or happily ignoring these glaring issues), but they are there, no matter how much you want to believe that this game is perfect, those huge, experience ruining issues are still there.
If you don't want to take my word for it, ask Zenien, or hop on over to the elder scrolls boards and take a look at any of the 50+ page threads complaining about this, trying to figure out ways to fix it via mods, some even asking if it was a bug. I'm sorry that a really hyped 360 game turned out to be less than impressive, a 7/10 at best, but it's time to move on and to stop pretending that the problems don't exist. They took something that wasn't broken (the scaling system used in Morrowind and the expansions) and "fixed" it with a broken, ass backwards system that kills the effect of the entire game.
The fact that no matter how far you got through the game, there were still more enemies for you to fight because the game brought out harder opponents everytime you gained a new level.
What canon breaks, please explain.
I'm sorry if a challenging enemy actually hurts the game for you but I enjoy it when I still have the chance of dying every now and then no matter how powerful I am. Its almost impossible to level up the wrong skills even if you have skills like sneak and security maxed. The only way to do that would be to try to make your character as underpowered as possible at the beginning of the game.
Wow you must not have tried to break into many of the shops of houses because I always found something worth stealing in the game even at level 27.
What game are you playing? The game always scaled the items that I looted so that no matter what I would either have a use for them or I could sell them for a nice chunk of change at the level I was at. Seriously the only time items you looted weren't valuable to you was when you have the best armor with the right combination of enchants and the best weapon in the game.
Did you even try to explore all the dungeons in the game because I found so many that had worth while items or money caches that I stopped counting.
Seriously stop being a ****ing *****e and actually play the game, there were multiple environments for you to explore like say mountains, small villages, lakes, coasts, swamps, tundra, and forests.
I've completed the game with both a mage and a theif and was just as easy to do as it was with my ****ing warrior so get over yourself.
**** Zenien, I'll actually take her word seriously when the world freezes over and penguins control our minds.
You guys don't seem to understand. Maybe because you're only playing warrior characters, or willfully ignoring it, I don't know. Let's say I'm a Thief. I level up once based on my security and sneak skills, two things that by and large do not help in a fight. When I gain a level, so does every other bandit and scaled creature in the land. The problem is, they gain a level based entirely on weapon and armor skills, things that DO help in a fight. This puts my thief at a disadvantage. 10 levels later, I find myself unable to complete the main quest, because the enemies are so much more advanced than I am. But I could always rely on the allies they give you during most of those quests, right? Wrong. Unlike your daedric foes, your NPC allies do not level up beside of you, leaving you and an army of level 5 guards to try and storm the Kvatch cathedral being guarded by a dozen level 15 and up enemies, all of which will swarm you after having defeated the Kvatch guard, making the fight all the more hopeless. If you somehow manage to survive Kvatch, don't be too happy, because you have several quests just as broken as that one waiting on you when you get back. Maybe you could try leveling up combat skills once you get back? Don't bother, because by now it's too late, the enemy will always be 10 combat helping levels above you, at all times. That isn't a new "challenge", that's a game breaking poor design decision. But hey, that's just one out of the three archetypes most people play, right, that's not so bad? Wrong.
Let's take the same example, but with a Mage. I level up based on alchemy, or based on illusion, alteration, etc, anything but destruction. I do this a couple of times. And I'll be doing just as bad as the Thief.
The only REAL solution is to either not level up at all, which results in you being cut off from a lot of content thanks to the fact that this game, unlike Morrowind and despite claiming to be all about player freedom, has a "you must be this tall" level requirement for a lot of quests.
The fact is, it was a bad design decision, and it effects most of the people who play this game, and most of the people hate scaling (again, don't believe me, feel free to peruse any of the many, many threads about it on Bethesda's own forums, teamxbox, ign, etc). It breaks the game. It makes it impossible to progress because you didn't play a character that does nothing but level up blade and armor. It is bad. Go back and read that sentence as many times as it takes for it to sink into your head.
Past level 20 I see bandits and NPCs everywhere wearing glass, ebony, and even daedric armor, and using glass, ebony, and even daedric weapons. So you're telling me that people who live in caves and make a living shaking down people for give gold on the side of the road have equipment that is more valuable than anything you will EVER find in a Count's Castle? People who live in caves have more wealth than people who own cities and huge chunks of land surronding them? Glass ebony and daedric suddenly all became extremely common at once? It's kind of sad to see a series that used to be all about immersion fly in the face of it's own lore, all in the name of a broken, ass backwards gameplay concept that fixed something that wasn't broken in the first place. Past a certain point you can go to the imperial city waterfront, a group of people so poor they are never taxed, living in shacks outside the city walls, with glass weapons worth 10,000 gold or more strapped to their sides. It's ridiculous. I'm sorry a hyped game is ridiculous, but it is.
Wow, it's hard to argue with someone so deluded. A challenging enemy doesn't hurt the game. That's why no one *****ed and moaned about fabricants in Tribunal or falmer in Bloodmoon, or even the lower level "challenging" enemies in Morrowind. There's a big difference between "this enemy is challenging, I'd better watch out or go and try to level up so I can take him" and "every single thing is scaled to my level, so EVERY enemy is challenging, and they only get more challenging everytime I level up, the exact opposite of what is supposed to happen, this is crap, I'm turning this off". And no, it's not impossible to level up the wrong skills, are you ****ing kidding me? Have you even played a mage or a thief? You either have no idea what you're talking about because you haven't played those two, you were being sarcastic, you're absolutely ******ed. Please, go play a Thief and just do thief stuff, and see how fast sneak and security go up, and then go and try to take a Troll. If I have to use ten arrows to kill a Troll, then level up and suddenly need to use 15 of the same type of arrows with the same type of bow with the same marksman skill, something is wrong, period. There is no debating this, it's not even up for disagreement, that system I just described, the system that is implemented into Oblivion, is broken.
Oh you're full of ****. I've been playing a thief character since the day this game was released, don't tell me I've not broken into many shops and houses. And you found something worth stealing at level 27? Hahaha, wow, you must not be very good at the econimics of this game then, since by level 27 most people have so much money that they don't even bother anymore.
If you're done with your twilight zone "let's pretend theft in Oblivion isn't broken!" crap, let's examine how it really happens.
I'm level 10. I'm in the Talos district, and it's night. I'm in the wealthiest district of the biggest city, and I see a place with a "very hard" lock on it. A "very hard" level lock indicates that inside would be something worth it, right? So, I finally manage to break in. What do I find? Some barrels...with food, not worth my time. A chest or two...with crap like callipers and shoes, not worth my time. I scour the place, and the most valuable item on the first floor and basement is a silver urn, barely 8 gold, not even enough for me to make back the money I lost on lockpicks. So I make my way up to the bedroom, afterall this is a wealthy place and it had a very hard lock, there must be SOMETHING in here, right? So I get past the bedroom lock, and find the guy sleeping, and beside his bed is a chest, with another 'very hard' lock on it. I eventually pry it open....and there are MORE callipers. That's a true story by the way, that has happened to me, more than once. You know what's really sad though? The flawless diamond that Armand Christophe has on his table in the waterfront district, the district for the poorest of the poor, got me more cash than raiding the bedroom of Countess Ariana valga, richest person in all of Chorrol. This system isn't a broken peice of trash? Please.
Maybe you have lowered standards, who knows. Since you don't seem to understand, here's a quick run down of how the system really works, rather than how you've imagined it.
Every dungeon has the SAME loot, generated from the same levelled lists. What equipment you find on bandits/in chests is determined by your level. As you make progress and level up (if you can call that progress in this game), you flip invisible switches that lets the world know you are "allowed" to have certain items. Before that time, you will can not find them, not in shops, not laying around, not in dungeons, it's impossible, they do not exist in the game world until you flip that switch, which people with the PC construction kit have confirmed time and time again. So let's say I hit level 4. I can now access silver, in dungeons and in shops. Let's say I raid a dungeon, and get a silver weapon. I will never, ever find anything better than that in another dungeon or shop, not for the next 5 or 6 levels, meaning there is absolutely nothing in there for me. It works for potions, for gems, for weapons, for armor, for everything. Every single peice of loot is scaled to the point that every dungeons loot is made up of exactly the same crap, meaning that you can raid a dungeon once and ignore all the rest for a few levels because there is nothing in them for you to use, and there are better ways to make money. I don't know if you didn't play the game or what, but that's how it works. Use the construction set, read the guide, actually pay attention to the game for once, do whatever you need to do to snap yourself out of this delusion and prove this to yourself if you need to. That is how it works, and that is why it is useless to go into dungeons or explore most of the time.
I think the difference here is that you maybe consider anything over 10 gold "worthwhile" while I am expecting, I don't know, treasure of some sort, something to make it worth my time to go in there. I mean, afterall, if every fight in that dungeon is going to be tough, think I deserve more than silver plates and callipers.
I'm sorry, are you even sure you know what Oblivion is? I mean, you HAVE played it, right? Just checking, since this post is absurd and all. The entire game is just forest. That is the ONLY environment offered in this game, forrest. There's green forrest, there's white forrest, there's slightly droopy forrest around Leyawin, but it's all just forrest. And I'm sorry, where the hell did you EVER see a swamp? Were you playing Morrowind maybe? There are no swamps in Oblivion, not even around Leyawiin, just the same droopy trees that look just slightly different from normal trees, and thats it.
I doubt that, a lot. A thief isn't a guy in heavy armor and wielding a claymore who happens to be in the thieves guild, and a mage isn't that same guy in the mages guild. The idea that there is no problem at all is just laughable, these things get brought up any time Oblivion is mentioned on any discussion board, and you guys think it's all just imaginary? Some mass hysteria? Priceless.
And this is just the level scaling, this doesn't even cover the horrible compass that you can't even turn off, the quest spoiler pop up's, the fast travel system that has no in-game alternative, the "Radiant AI" that doesn't exist (follow an NPC one day, and see just how many broken promises you can find for RAI), god awful pop-in, etc. I like the game, I just got done playing the game, and I'm a fan of the game. But it's a 6 or a 7/10, at most, and it's no where near as good and perfect as most of you make it out to be.
Those are some long ****ing posts.