What happened to the Twelve?

[Tron Bonne]

JMS isn't exclusive to DC. His exclusive to Marvel ended, making him a freelancer.

Oh, ok. So it's not impossible for him to finish The Twelve. He just won't

 

[Darthphere]

I really don't know what the problem is.

 

[moraldeficiency]

This is why I'm just trade waiting, got the first and I'll wait for the second. Getting comic by comic on something you just know is going to be this late, but this awesome, is far too painful.

And my favorite character is laughing mask.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I really don't know what the problem is.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess Thor is the problem. JMS doesn't seem like he's too well-equipped to deal with one series, since we know now that the delays have been as much his fault as Coipel's, let alone two. Thor seems to be his priority now, and look how infrequently that comes out. Not surprising that The Twelve has just fallen off the radar completely.

 

[Mr. Green]

That's why you wait until the entire series is out in tpb form. They did it with Planet Hulk, they did it with Kingdom Come, they'll do it with this.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

What are you talking about?

 

[Mr. Green]

I'm talking about waiting for the 12 issues to be collected in a tpb format as opposed to buying the single issues or buying two tpbs collecting 6 issues each.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

That doesn't really solve the problem for people who prefer reading it in individual issues, and it doesn't correct the fact that Marvel solicited the thing as a monthly series. If Marvel wanted to make it a graphic novel, by all means, go for it. We don't get enough original graphic novels out of the American comics industry anymore. But this particular series was prepared and solicited as a periodical, so waving the laxness of the industry and the creators away with a "wait for the trade" just reinforces this unprofessional attitude that's pervading the industry right now.

 

[Aristotle]

Meh, OGNs are overrated. I enjoy serials ever so much more.

 

[Darthphere]

OGN's beat trade waiting though. More minis need to come out in the OGN format IMO, especially in this $3.99 a comic era.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Whatever suits the material best, as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, if we got more of these hit-or-miss series in OGN format, I think more people would enjoy them. A writer can afford a weak patch or two when the readers have got one contiguous narrative laid out in front of them, but a weak issue or two in a periodical comic series, especially with the cost of today's comics, means a lot of people are probably dropping that series in favor of something they enjoy more or just to save money.

 

[Darthphere]

Whatever suits the material best, as far as I'm concerned. Honestly, if we got more of these hit-or-miss series in OGN format, I think more people would enjoy them. A writer can afford a weak patch or two when the readers have got one contiguous narrative laid out in front of them, but a weak issue or two in a periodical comic series, especially with the cost of today's comics, means a lot of people are probably dropping that series in favor of something they enjoy more or just to save money.

I've long been a proponent of the return of graphic novels. It will never happen though because it will be cheaper for us, less profitable for them.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Naturally. Which, given the comic industry's strength at the moment, might actually be fair. They need all the money they can get.

Also, to clarify, I'm not talking about stories that are just s*** when I say "weak patches." I'm talking about stories where the writer needs to have X, Y, and Z happen but can't necessarily find a way to insert enough action or character beats or whatever to make a segment of the story that would correspond to a full issue feel like a satisfying, complete issue without ruining their pacing. If you've just got weak sections because you're a weak writer, format ain't gonna help you.

 

[Aristotle]

More minis need to come out in the OGN format IMO, especially in this $3.99 a comic era.

Yeah, that I can agree with. I still like my monthly ongoings though.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I like it when monthly ongoings are actually serialized, personally. There are stories that some ongoings could stand to lose to OGNs. "Old Man Logan" in Wolverine's comic, for one. Why would anyone think it's a good idea to hijack the monthly series and turn it into a dystopic alterna-future escapade for six or twelve or however many months?

(That's rhetorical, of course. I know the answer to that "why" is "because Millar + McNiven = $$$, so we let them do whatever they want.")

 

[Darthphere]

Naturally. Which, given the comic industry's strength at the moment, might actually be fair. They need all the money they can get.

Also, to clarify, I'm not talking about stories that are just s*** when I say "weak patches." I'm talking about stories where the writer needs to have X, Y, and Z happen but can't necessarily find a way to insert enough action or character beats or whatever to make a segment of the story that would correspond to a full issue feel like a satisfying, complete issue without ruining their pacing. If you've just got weak sections because you're a weak writer, format ain't gonna help you.

Yeah, that I can agree with. I still like my monthly ongoings though.

Yeah, we have too many writers "writing for the trade". A lot of these mini's get extended to six issues from 4 issues just to fit in a nicer package.

For example X-Men Noir, no reason why these can't be OGN's instead of minis.

 

[Mr. Green]

I like it when monthly ongoings are actually serialized, personally. There are stories that some ongoings could stand to lose to OGNs. "Old Man Logan" in Wolverine's comic, for one. Why would anyone think it's a good idea to hijack the monthly series and turn it into a dystopic alterna-future escapade for six or twelve or however many months?

(That's rhetorical, of course. I know the answer to that "why" is "because Millar + McNiven = $$$, so we let them do whatever they want.")

You must have forgot to carry the one or something. The equation you were looking for is, Millar + McNiven = Awesome ****ing creative team, so we let them do whatever they want because it will be awesome.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, no, I didn't mean that at all. Millar + anyone = me not reading the comic, so I can't comment on how awesome or not "Old Man Logan" is. I just think that an alterna-future story would make more sense in mini or OGN format than inserted awkwardly into the ongoing series, which should ostensibly take place in the shared universe and, to at least some extent, in the present.

Yeah, we have too many writers "writing for the trade". A lot of these mini's get extended to six issues from 4 issues just to fit in a nicer package.

For example X-Men Noir, no reason why these can't be OGN's instead of minis.

Thankfully, there seems to be a push back from that mentality now. Dini, Slott, and various other writers are bringing the 2- or 3-issue arcs back in their comics, whereas Brubaker has essentially been writing one ultra-arc with two mega-phases (so far) and various smaller arcs within them that are satisfying on their own but fit firmly into the larger framework on Captain America. There's a bit of variety, at least.

 

[Aristotle]

Personally, I'm liking Morrison's approach lately. He basically has no length format. One arc might be four issues, another will be five, another will be two. Seven Soldiers was a nightmare to collect, I hear, and 52 is anything but written for the trade. Final Crisis, of course, is probably the best example: how many people are already pissed that Superman Beyond won't be in the collection? Morrison wrote a story and put it all over the place, to make people actually buy the comic books. He's expressed the same anger at the dominance of the trade format and the three-act Hollywood structure as everyone else, but he's actually doing something about it.

 

[Mr. Green]

Yeah, no, I didn't mean that at all. Millar + anyone = me not reading the comic, so I can't comment on how awesome or not "Old Man Logan" is. I just think that an alterna-future story would make more sense in mini or OGN format than inserted awkwardly into the ongoing series, which should ostensibly take place in the shared universe and, to at least some extent, in the present.

What does OGN stand for?

And was there like, a particular Millar run that just rubbed you the wrong way or what?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Original graphic novel.

More of an accumulation of distaste after reading several Millar runs. I still like some of his work, but I find his action-movie style of writing distasteful. Everything has to be a spectacle, regardless of whether it makes sense for the characters or works on any kind of deeper level or anything. He wants to make you go "oh s***!" more than anything else, and it's really cheap and transparent to me, since I prefer more delicate character work in my comics. There's room for the big shock moments, but it has to be tempered with something more thoughtful, otherwise you just have a meaningless spectacle.

 

[moraldeficiency]

eh, Old Man Logan is actually the best thing Millar's got going right now, he's not always a crap writer, just mostly (FF, kick ass, I'm looking at you). And the reason they wedged this story into the regular series is because the regular series sucked ass like a turbo hoover. When your title character is the weak point of your book time to do something drastic. This way after the Millar issues the next writer can take over a new angle and present an all new way of logan being craptacular.

FC's not going to have SB in the trade? That's stupid on so many levels. Morrison must hate new readers.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I could see your point if not for the fact that Wolverine's got another ongoing series starting up in like a month. A series that actually looks appealing given that it's got Jason Aaron and Ron Garney working on it.

 

[moraldeficiency]

eh, I could do without wolverine for about a year or so. But OML is actually really good as an alternate universe type thing. I mean he's much better than normal logan for the haircut alone. (though anything clint eastwood western esque is always gonna have a special place in my heart)

 

[Aristotle]

(though anything clint eastwood western esque is always gonna have a special place in my heart)

Wow, he basically is just doing Unforgiven with Logan in the future, isn't he? I hadn't noticed.