What if Superman were to reveal his identity to the world?

[The Question]

How as a character Metallo is able to drive a plot in the same way Lex can and provide the possibilites for interesting stories as Lex has in stories like President Lex, Kingdom Come etc. To spell it out in a slightly simpler manner.

How Metallo is a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Lex?



Perhaps you're not being obtuse, perhaps you are just having trouble understanding me again. You have told me this is a problem with my posts. Show me these possible motivations you believe he has.



- Whirly

Well, you just asked two questions there. Possible motivations and possible stories. The two are quite different. As I have said, many different stories can come from one motivation. As for possible Metallo stories.....I don't know. You're basically asking me to come up with the plot for a new Superman story involving Metallo. That takes a bit of time to think.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Well, you just asked two questions there. Possible motivations and possible stories. The two are quite different. As I have said, many different stories can come from one motivation. As for possible Metallo stories.....I don't know. You're basically asking me to come up with the plot for a new Superman story involving Metallo. That takes a bit of time to think.

I'm not really asking two questions, but if it's easier for you to understand it that way cool. I gave several possible motivations for Luthor off the top of my head previously. The human standing up for humanities right to make decisions and mistakes for itself. Man's struggle to overcome the need for a Messiah was another. Come on it's not that hard if the character fits and has scope for unusual stories. Is it? The motivation drives the story. You don't have to provide a detailed plot, merely a direction or two.

Here's a new one! A "mans" fear of being replaced by something better, he's society being fundementally changed by an alien culture and alien ideas. The influence of Krypton.

The clock is ticking j/k.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

I gave several possible motivations for Luthor of the top of my head previously.

One, really. And one that has been used in the comics previously. Like I said, give me some time to think.

The human standing up for humanities right to make decisions and mistakes for itself. Man's struggle to overcome the need for a Messiah was another.

Those are kind of the same thing.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Those are kind of the same thing.

Not exactly Messiahs take the burden upon themselves. A benevolent dictator removes freewill. I get what you mean though about how hard my posts are to understand did you see my edit above I thought of a third idea.

Please show me Metallos possibilities.

- Whirly

 

[BrianWilly]

How as a character Metallo is able to drive a plot in the same way Lex can and provide the possibilites for interesting stories as Lex has in stories like President Lex, Kingdom Come etc. To spell it out in a slightly simpler manner.
How Metallo is a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Lex?

But you can say that about anyone. You might as well say "How is Joker a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Lex?" or "How is Batman a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Spider-Man?" That's completely subjective and all depends on the story, anyway; I can name just as many dumb, pointless Lex Luthor appearances as I can Lex Luthor cameos where he was badass and innovative.

Ultimately, Metallo has something that Lex Luthor will never have simply on the basis that he is Metallo and Lex Luthor is Lex Luthor: he's not Lex Luthor. If a writer wanted to write a Superman story where he goes up against someone who's not Lex Luthor, evil mad scientist villain sociopath archetype, he could use Metallo who's a whole other type of villain, a vengeful Terminatoresque thug. Thus Superman stories have a much wider variety of potential than if he had only one type of supervillain to go up against...what's wrong with that? That's the whole point of having a rogue's gallery, so that Superman's not fighting Lex Luthor 24/7, which would just be ridiculous.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Those are kind of the same thing.

Not exactly Messiahs take the burden upon themselves. A benevolent dictator removes freewill. I get what you mean though about how hard my posts are to understand, did you see my edit above? I thought of a third idea.

here it is!

Here's a new one! A "mans" fear of being replaced by something better, he's society being fundementally changed by an alien culture and alien ideas. The influence of Krypton.



Please show me Metallos possibilities.

- Whirly

 

[Whirlysplat]

But you can say that about anyone. You might as well say "How is Joker a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Lex?" or "How is Batman a character with as many possibilities for novel and unusual stories as Spider-Man?" That's completely subjective and all depends on the story, anyway; I can name just as many dumb, pointless Lex Luthor appearances as I can Lex Luthor cameos where he was badass and innovative.

Ultimately, Metallo has something that Lex Luthor will never have simply on the basis that he is Metallo and Lex Luthor is Lex Luthor: he's not Lex Luthor. If a writer wanted to write a Superman story where he goes up against someone who's not Lex Luthor, evil mad scientist villain sociopath archetype, he could use Metallo who's a whole other type of villain, a vengeful Terminatoresque thug. Thus Superman stories have a much wider variety of potential than if he had only one type of supervillain to go up against...what's wrong with that? That's the whole point of having a rogue's gallery, so that Superman's not fighting Lex Luthor 24/7, which would just be ridiculous.

No argument a variety of characters should be used, however Metallo type characters only really lead to one type of story. Please provide scenarios that prove me wrong.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

Alright. Here's a few:


Metallo begins working for an Intergang boss as an enforcer. Eventually, he kills said Intergang boss and takes control of his territory.

Metallo learns that his father is dying of some terminal disease. He kidnaps Superman in hops of using his blood (and thus, his enhanced level of cellular regeneration) to save his life.

Metallo learns Superman's identity and, with The Parasite and Live Wire, forms a new "Superman Revenge Squad" to make his life into a living hell (which actually goes back to the origional topic of this thread, interestingly enough). As an extention of this story, Metallo adopts a new idenity and poses as a reporter at the Daily Planet. He slowly befriends Clark, and ultimately uses that possision to crush his spirit.

Metallo, wanting to regain his powers after ataining a new, mostly organic body, begins hunting down cybernetic life forms and grafting their parts onto his own body. He ends up with the amalgimated abilities of the Metal Men, Cyborg, Red Tornado, Hourman, Sonar, and a few others.

Metallo poses as a new super hero and eventually joins the League. He then fuses with the League's computers (and later the computers of the Fortress of Solitude) and becomes a "ghost in the machine" type entity.

 

[BrianWilly]

No argument a variety of characters should be used, however Metallo type characters only really lead to one type of story. Please provide scenarios that prove me wrong.

- Whirly

The point is that those types of stories are available. The whole purpose of a villain is to serve as narrative foil. If Superman didn't have any villains like Metallo, he'd just be fighting brainy, smarmy, manipulative mad scientists every single week.

That gives characters like Metallo worth, merely on the basis that they provide the alternative to the Lex Luthors. It doesn't matter if he's the most two-dimensional bank robber ever written that leads to only one type of story -- even if that were true -- the fact that he's a two-dimensional bank robber instead of a charismatic, sociopathic leader makes him just as vital in the larger scheme.

But since you asked: in Superman/Batman #7, Metallo stole a techbot from Hiro, the Toyman, and led Superboy and Robin through downtown Tokyo in a hilarious anime mecha homage. Being part giant robot anyway it totally fit into John Corben's gimmick in ways that it would never fit Luthor's, and it was a change from the usual "Metallo and Superman punch each other for a few issues" plotline.

It always, always depends solely on the writer and how inventive they want to be with these characters. As has often been said: there are no bad characters, only bad writers.

 

[Whirlysplat]

The point is that those types of stories are available. The whole purpose of a villain is to serve as narrative foil. If Superman didn't have any villains like Metallo, he'd just be fighting brainy, smarmy, manipulative mad scientists every single week.

Actually in comics it can be argued in the best stories the actions of the hero are a foil for the motivations of the villian: Examples of this are frequent with the heroes existing just to thwart the villians plans. The villians plans are the catalyst for the episodal plot and give a purpose to the hero. The Sandman for instance (not a hero) is often merely an observer. In Watchmen the main characters are "false protagonists", it is the motivations of the unrevealed villian that actually drives the main plot. Sometimes a more classic stance is taken for instance in Miracleman - Jonny Bates is a foil for the deconstructionism of the Superhero and a long lasting socioeconomic change, as an enforced utopia is created through a "baptism of fire". The key point to this story arc was Sacrifice and Redemption.

That gives characters like Metallo worth, merely on the basis that they provide the alternative to the Lex Luthors. It doesn't matter if he's the most two-dimensional bank robber ever written that leads to only one type of story -- even if that were true -- the fact that he's a two-dimensional bank robber instead of a charismatic, sociopathic leader makes him just as vital in the larger scheme.

It doesn't? I would argue his scope is hugely diminissed and generic villians are ten a penny in comics.

But since you asked: in Superman/Batman #7, Metallo stole a techbot from Hiro, the Toyman, and led Superboy and Robin through downtown Tokyo in a hilarious anime mecha homage. Being part giant robot anyway it totally fit into John Corben's gimmick in ways that it would never fit Luthor's, and it was a change from the usual "Metallo and Superman punch each other for a few issues" plotline.

Sounds excellent and just the stuff Eagle awards and Eisners are made of . All humour aside I have that issue and whilst funny it's not Tom Strong for the cliched parody classic.

It always, always depends solely on the writer and how inventive they want to be with these characters. As has often been said: there are no bad characters, only bad writers.

Well we'll have to disagree on this Brian as I believe the scope of a character like Metallo is greatly diminished in comparison to a Luthor and lends the author far fewer possibilities.

- Whirly

 

[Whirlysplat]

Alright. Here's a few:
Metallo begins working for an Intergang boss as an enforcer. Eventually, he kills said Intergang boss and takes control of his territory.

Wow! Sounds like an epic job for Superman, a mafia style power struggle.

Alright. Here's a few:

Metallo learns that his father is dying of some terminal disease. He kidnaps Superman in hops of using his blood (and thus, his enhanced level of cellular regeneration) to save his life.

How about a better one he asks Supes for his help. The kidnap is unlikely and cliched and does not lend sympathy to Metallo. How does he feel turning to his enemy. Still a serious cliche though even done this way.

Metallo learns Superman's identity and, with The Parasite and Live Wire, forms a new "Superman Revenge Squad" to make his life into a living hell (which actually goes back to the origional topic of this thread, interestingly enough). As an extention of this story, Metallo adopts a new idenity and poses as a reporter at the Daily Planet. He slowly befriends Clark, and ultimately uses that possision to crush his spirit.

I think you see the problem with this one in bold.

Metallo, wanting to regain his powers after ataining a new, mostly organic body, begins hunting down cybernetic life forms and grafting their parts onto his own body. He ends up with the amalgimated abilities of the Metal Men, Cyborg, Red Tornado, Hourman, Sonar, and a few others.

A power up. Groundbreaking Might as well create a new character without the baggage. That way you don't lose all the better characters you mention above from continuity.

Metallo poses as a new super hero and eventually joins the League. He then fuses with the League's computers (and later the computers of the Fortress of Solitude) and becomes a "ghost in the machine" type entity.

Didn't the Vision once do something similar That sounds like the type of plot that will run and run

Do you know Ron Marz

Funny essay here http://notthebeastmaster.typepad.com/weblog/2004/04/the_worst_of_th.html

- Whirly

 

[BrianWilly]

You're the one that asked for examples. If you're just going to dismiss or make fun of the responses, what did you even ask for them in the first place?

 

[Whirlysplat]

You're the one that asked for examples. If you're just going to dismiss or make fun of the responses, what did you even ask for them in the first place?

Dismiss and make fun of? This was never my intention, unfortunately perhaps my friendly quips have upset you , if that's the case I apologise. I respect your opinions and believe we have reached an impasse as our arguments are now circular. You have your opinion which I respect and I have mine. We are both entitled to hold these differing views obviously.

- Whirly

 

[Harlekin]

Sounds excellent and just the stuff Eagle awards and Eisners are made of . All humour aside I have that issue and whilst funny it's not Tom Strong for the cliched parody classic.

Who gives a frig about the Eisners? Not every comic needs to be mindblowing Tom Strong/Eisner/Watchmen etc. level. I don't need or want a superduperubertotallyfriggin'awesomethebestever Metallo story. I just need/want a good, amusing story with Metallo.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Who gives a frig about the Eisners? Not every comic needs to be mindblowing Tom Strong/Eisner/Watchmen etc. level. I don't need or want a superduperubertotallyfriggin'awesomethebestever Metallo story. I just need/want a good, amusing story with Metallo.

Enjoy it, I would like to see the quality of every comic be mindblowing I guess it's really down to what you're satisfied with. Do you see a glass half empty or a glass half full.

For me this quote sums up how I want to see comics. Like the author this is what I dream. This is the world I want my comics to be in. Wether Metallo is part of them or not.

What do you dream?

"A Telex came from Tokyo this morning.

"Their geneticists have reared a mouse that levitates, a glowing rabbit that can talk. Oh what a world, with super mice and atom rabbits, yet I dream of more.

"I dream suburbias where every child is brave and funny, where a green-skinned scientist cackling at dusk or a journey to the sherbert-wastes of Mars are childhood commonplace. I dream teenagers, the boys with letter sweatshirts, girls with single brush-stroke brows, in endless ice-cream parlors, never growing old or running out of flavors; dream them in moon-chilled jalopies when their sitcom day is through…the delicate perfume of sex and leatherette pervades the air, the radios playing new Gene Vincent songs, new episodes of discontinued but beloved shows.

"I dream a world of heroes and exciting clothes, hood cut away to show the hair or leotards made out of flags. I dream insignia, dream lightning flashes, planets, letters stars; of bob-cut women wearing red stilettos, ice-blue half-length capes; of men in dominos, transparent blouses, slashing elegance of line in every wrinkle, every crease. I dream a world where everyone has sidekicks and caves to keep their eerie souvenirs.

"I dream of cities that old futurists would weep with joy to see, of wharfside neighborhoods where tough kids track down spies, where crumbling tenements contort to teetering and eccentric shapes that seem to spell out words against the night.

"I dream a Picadilly Circus where magicians dressed in toppers, tails, or turbans wave hypnotically and conjure birds made out of steam, or scented fish or flowers that speak in verse for the delighted evening crowds. I dream of an Enbankment where tall men with somber cloaks and names like Kismet, Destiny, or Fate will entertain a passerby with stories of her life to come, or chill her blood with supernatural parables, and all the while their hatbrim-shadows hide their eyes.

"I dream of rugged, mustard-yellow monsters from the deep, with vulgar and percussive names like Zax and Rul-Rah-Room. I dream a world of dreams fulfilled, a place where ecstasy and not his brother pain has run amok, and even as I dream I know my dreams are almost true, a planet of attained desire and concrete fantasy that spins and glitters, balanced on the diamond capstone of Olympus."

—Alan Moore, Miracle Man #16



- Whirly

 

[Harlekin]

Enjoy it, I would like to see the quality of every comic be mindblowing I guess it's really down to what you're satisfied with. Do you see a glass half empty or a glass half full.

Except it stops being mindblowing then doesn't it? For there to be a work like 'Watchmen', there needs to be a work like 'Zero Hour' (or somesuch mediocre story). I don't need my mind blown Alan Moore style every month, I just want the book to be fun and a good read. I'm not usually looking for a mindblowing book when I peruse the book section, but a book I'll at least enjoy. That's still looking at the glass as half full.

For me this quote sums up how I want to see comics. Like the author this is what I dream. This is the world I want my comics to be in. Wether Metallo is part of them or not.

What do you dream?

"A Telex came from Tokyo this morning.
[snippet]
—Alan Moore, Miracle Man #16

Heh, knew I recognized that from somewhere. It doesn't add anything to your point though, lovely as it is. Heck, it's exactly something that undermines your argument about Metallo's 'scope'. It seems to me that this is just a lack of imagination and dreaming on your part.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Except it stops being mindblowing then doesn't it?

Not really it just raises the bar.

For there to be a work like 'Watchmen', there needs to be a work like 'Zero Hour' (or somesuch mediocre story).the glass as half full.

Watchmen was 20 years ago now I'd been reading comics for about 11 years at the time. Moore was creating that level of quality monthly for Swampthing at the time. A few years later he was creating a similar level of quality monthly for Miracleman. Gaiman kept the quality of Sandman monthly for years. I see lots of the mediocre. Every comic should be a work of love. Look at Planet Hulk at the moment or Supreme Power last year. Every issue is superb.

E I just want the book to be fun and a good read.

If you're happy with that great. I'm not, I've read those comics for the last 35 odd years.

Heh, knew I recognized that from somewhere. It doesn't add anything to your point though, lovely as it is. Heck, it's exactly something that undermines your argument about Metallo's 'scope'. It seems to me that this is just a lack of imagination and dreaming on your part.

No, you misunderstand what i'm saying and I hope this post explains the context of my quote to you. I'm not saying you can't have a good story with Metallo in it. You just can't have a great story with him as the main part of it for more than a single issue. As a henchman he's fine.

You can have you're glass half full. I just want the bar raised for the monthly hacks who regurgitate the same storylines with the same characters week in and week out and expect me to buy it with my hard earned money. Is that to much to ask? No?

- Whirly

 

[Sloth7d]

Forget everything posted.
Because if superman revealed his identity to the world everyone would be like "OMG!I'm so ****ing stupid. How could I not know who he was and he wasn't even wearing a mask?!!!Roooooooar!"
then the world would die off because everyone would hit thereself with a dummy stick until they died. And thats how Superman would end all existence.......Wait what was I talking about?

 

[Harlekin]

Watchmen was 20 years ago now I'd been reading comics for about 11 years at the time. Moore was creating that level of quality monthly for Swampthing at the time. A few years later he was creating a similar level of quality monthly for Miracleman. Gaiman kept the quality of Sandman monthly for years. I see lots of the mediocre. Every comic should be a work of love. Look at Planet Hulk at the moment or Supreme Power last year. Every issue is superb.

Ah, okay, see, that changes things. I like Planet Hulk, but it's not on the level of Watchmen. It's also about weeding out the mediocre and going for good. Good doesn't have to be Eisner-award winning excellent, just plain good. I'm not even sure why you still enjoy comics, or you must have quite a small pull list.

No, you misunderstand what i'm saying and I hope this post explains the context of my quote to you. I'm not saying you can't have a good story with Metallo in it. You just can't have a great story with him as the main part of it for more than a single issue. As a henchman he's fine.

Now you're misunderstanding me. Not being able to write a great story with Metallo is a lack of that same dreaming and imagination being referred too. People probably thought the same thing about Swamp Thing (and lord knows people would've thought it of something like Animal Man or Miracleman). Every character has the potential for a great story.

You can have you're glass half full. I just want the bar raised for the monthly hacks who regurgitate the same storylines with the same characters week in and week out and expect me to buy it with my hard earned money. Is that to much to ask? No?

Aye, there's the rub. Like I said, it's weeding out the mediocre and going for the good. There are always going to be hacks unfortunately, but even they can produce a really good story from time to time.

 

[Whirlysplat]

Now you're misunderstanding me. Not being able to write a great story with Metallo is a lack of that same dreaming and imagination being referred too. People probably thought the same thing about Swamp Thing (and lord knows people would've thought it of something like Animal Man or Miracleman). Every character has the potential for a great story.

Obviously this is true if you're prepared to deconstruct the character completely and create a whole new supporting cast and mythology. However, even as a foil in another characters comic without this Metallo is limited.

Aye, there's the rub. Like I said, it's weeding out the mediocre and going for the good. There are always going to be hacks unfortunately, but even they can produce a really good story from time to time.

But there should not always be hacks my friend, the failiure of quality control was part of what caused the collapse of comics in the nineties. In most jobs with personal responsibility for a project, if you didn't produce relatively good most of the time you would get replaced by someone who did.

Ah, okay, see, that changes things. I like Planet Hulk, but it's not on the level of Watchmen. It's also about weeding out the mediocre and going for good. Good doesn't have to be Eisner-award winning excellent, just plain good. I'm not even sure why you still enjoy comics, or you must have quite a small pull list.

Why do I read comics still?

Because of titles like Lucifer, Sentry, Moonknight, Ultimates and a number of Ultimate lines. I have about 50 on my Pull list at present but many are indie. Some others are nostalgic to me and bought for completionist purposes. e.g. I have every issue of Action Comics since 1976.

- Whirly

 

[Aren]

Nah, that would really really suck

 

[Eros]

Superman revealing his identity to the world? Whats he gonna do put on fake glasses and comb his hair in front of a news camera lol?